Light Speed and Newton's Equation F=ma: Explanation

rocky14159
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Im just an amateur, and I read that Newton's Equation F=ma doesn't work when approaching light speeds because of a relative increase in mass at higher velocicites. What is the reason for this, if any, and is there a ratio between veolcity and relative mass I could use to make my calculations more accurate when dealing with light speed? Thanks!
 
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F = ma may not work, but the full version of Newton's Second law does,

\mathbf{F} = \frac{d\mathbf{p}}{dt}

even at velocities close to the speed of light. However, you should note that unlike the classical case, the acceleration is not generally in the same direction as the force.
 
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Thanks, but can you tell me what the variables d, p, and t are? I am new here and not yet familiar with most full formulas
 
rocky14159 said:
Im just an amateur, and I read that Newton's Equation F=ma doesn't work when approaching light speeds because of a relative increase in mass at higher velocicites. What is the reason for this, if any, and is there a ratio between veolcity and relative mass I could use to make my calculations more accurate when dealing with light speed? Thanks!
In special relativity it is also F = m0A. And this forumla always works!

But the difference is that A is a 4-vector. A is the 4-acceleration vector which is basically the derivative of the 4-velocity vector with respect to proper time. And the 4-velocity vector is basically the change in direction in spacetime with respect to proper time. But note that we have four, not three, directions in spacetime!
In addition there is the 4-energy-momentum vector which is mass times the 4-velocity vector.

Four vectors are simple and elegant.

As you can see it is pretty straightforward, we simply have to add the extra direction in relativity. :smile:
 
rocky14159 said:
Thanks, but can you tell me what the variables d, p, and t are? I am new here and not yet familiar with most full formulas
p is the momentum of the particle and,

\frac{d}{dt}

Is the first derivative with respect to time. I'm guessing that you haven't done any calculus if you haven't seen this notation before. If that is the case, a more appropriate formulation would be,

m\mathbf{a} = \mathbf{F} - \frac{\left(\mathbf{F}\mathbf{\cdot}\mathbf{v}\right)\mathbf{v}}{c^2}

You should note that the product \left(\mathbf{F}\mathbf{\cdot}\mathbf{v}\right) isn't simply a scalar multiplication, rather it's the dot product between the two vectors (force and velocity).
 
the d's mean that you take the derivative of momentum (p), with respect to time (t)

Veolcity = \frac{d\vec{r}}{dt}

Acceleration = \frac{d\vec{v}}{dt}

Momentum = \vec{p} = \gamma m \vec{v}

Where: \gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v/c)^2}}
 
You lost me. Could you explain that in terms that an 8th grader who's only in Geometry could understand?
 
rocky14159 said:
You lost me. Could you explain that in terms that an 8th grader who's only in Geometry could understand?
8th grade, so you're about fourteen right? Without wanting to sound too harsh, I'm afraid that you're going to have a difficult time understanding this. Perhaps in a few years when you've done some more advanced mathematics (and basic physics) courses you might be able to have another go, but at the moment relativity is a little above your level. Which begs the question why are you studying SR? Is it for a project, or are you just generally interested?
 
I am interested, and I wanted to see around how much U-235 you would have to fission (at 100% efficiency) to propel the space shuttle to light speed (i know its not that simple, but i wanted a round number to see how much you would need) and at the moment all I can do is use F=ma because that's all I know, but I was hoping that there would be some sort of ratio to how fast you go to how much mass you gain, because then I could simply tack that on to my equation and plug in the numbers and solve again, with a more accurate answer.
 
  • #10
Hootenanny said:
8th grade, so you're about fourteen right? Without wanting to sound too harsh, I'm afraid that you're going to have a difficult time understanding this. Perhaps in a few years when you've done some more advanced mathematics (and basic physics) courses you might be able to have another go, but at the moment relativity is a little above your level. Which begs the question why are you studying SR? Is it for a project, or are you just generally interested?
I think it is great that someone who is 14 years old is asking questions about relativity. I think a 14 year old should already understand derivatives. Myself I was 12 years old when I became familiar and understood special relativity.

Why anyone would discourage, or worse put down, the young and enthusiastic people is beyond me.
 
  • #11
rocky14159 said:
You lost me. Could you explain that in terms that an 8th grader who's only in Geometry could understand?

Now that's a challenge! You know of us had to spend years and years in classes just to beign to understand this stuff!

The "derivative" of a quantity is essentially its instantaneous rate of change as opposed to an "average" rate of change. The "a" (acceleration) in F= ma is the instantaneous rate of change of velocity. That could be written F= m dv/dt. That is true as long as the mass (m) is constant. If it is changing itself it is better to say "Force = rate of change of momentum" and momentum, of course, is "mass times velocity" so "F= rate of change of mass times velocity" or F= d(mv)/dt.

By the way, you titled this "F= ma at light speed". Since nothing with mass can move at light speed, the question is vacuous.
 
  • #12
So I take it no one has ever found the ratio between an object's velocity and its relative gained mass, am I correct in assuming this?
 
  • #13
MeJennifer said:
I think it is great that someone who is 14 years old is asking questions about relativity. I think a 14 year old should already understand derivatives. Myself I was 12 years old when I became familiar and understood special relativity.

Could you elaborate on what "understood" means in this sentence?
I was about 13 when I was introduced to relativity [via a video on PBS]... but understanding it took a while.

MeJennifer said:
As you can see it is pretty straightforward, we simply have to add the extra direction in relativity. :smile:
...and use the Minkowski metric.
 
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  • #14
rocky14159 said:
I am interested, and I wanted to see around how much U-235 you would have to fission (at 100% efficiency) to propel the space shuttle to light speed (i know its not that simple, but i wanted a round number to see how much you would need) and at the moment all I can do is use F=ma because that's all I know, but I was hoping that there would be some sort of ratio to how fast you go to how much mass you gain, because then I could simply tack that on to my equation and plug in the numbers and solve again, with a more accurate answer.
It's good that your interested, but there are a couple of points to mention here. Firstly, no matter how much energy you have your space shuttle will never reach the speed of light, it can approach arbitrarily close to the speed of light, but it will never actually get there. Secondly as I have said previously, the acceleration produced by a given force isn't necessarily in the same direction as the force. One can use the concept of relativistic mass, as described by MG, but you simply can't substitute this force the mass term in the classical expression.
MeJennifer said:
Why anyone would discourage, or worse put down, the young and enthusiastic people is beyond me.
It is not an insult to tell someone that they haven't the sufficient knowlage to understand a concept. It is far worse to lead someone to believe that they do understand something when they don't.
 
  • #15
robphy said:
...and use the Minkowski metric.
Pretty standard 8th grade material :rolleyes:
 
  • #16
Hootenanny said:
robphy said:
...and use the Minkowski metric.
Pretty standard 8th grade material :rolleyes:

I was just making the point that
"relativity" is more about adding a dimension to "space" and dealing with a higher-dimensional space. Indeed, most of the trouble folks have with relativity is not about its dimensionality. Just consider every example with "motion in the x-direction".

There are ways to handle the non-euclidean-signature metric without explicitly invoking the metric or the Lorentz transformation... but most textbooks don't do them (or seem to know about them).
 
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  • #17
Hootenanny said:
It is not an insult to tell someone that they haven't the sufficient knowlage to understand a concept. It is far worse to lead someone to believe that they do understand something when they don't.
In my generation the concept of derivatives was taught at schools when the student was between 13 and 14 years old. Is it now different?
 
  • #18
MeJennifer said:
In my generation the concept of derivatives was taught at schools when the student was between 13 and 14 years old. Is it now different?
I would assume so since the OP states that he hasn't met them before. From what I know of the US education system calculus is usually introduced in the 11th grade (16-17).

Anyway, we're getting off topic. Are you still around rocky14159?
 
  • #19
rocky14159 said:
So I take it no one has ever found the ratio between an object's velocity and its relative gained mass, am I correct in assuming this?
Certainly not. An object with rest mass m0, moving at speed v, will have relativistic mass of
\frac{m_0}{\sqrt{1- \frac{v^2}{c^2}}}

If you know about mass increasing I'm suprised you hadn't see that formula before.
 
  • #20
Hootenanny said:
Pretty standard 8th grade material :rolleyes:

I learned that stuff in kindergarden :biggrin: I had P.A.M Dirac as teacher ;)
 
  • #21
I'm here, but I am in 8th grade and I have never even heard of any of this, but, I also got most of this information from other sources than school
 
  • #22
Hmm, well a little late, I know. But Rocky, since you're in geometry I assume you've been in Algebra I. In Algebra, you learn about rise over run, you count up how many boxes a line goes and how many boxes over, it goes, divide the up by the over and you've got your slope. This is great for straight lines, but when the line curves around counting boxes is nearly impossible. It is presented this way at the beginning of calculus as a refresher, but once you learn derivatives you'll no longer need this.

dp is the derivative of the momentum (m*v), dividing that by the derivative of time and you get m*v/t. Mass(kg)*Velocity(meters/second) divided by seconds gives you mass*(acceleration (meters/seconds/seconds)), or meters/seconds^2.

I hope that helps you get your head around this stuff a little more, and continue on with the thoughts, wondering is the beginning of understanding.
 
  • #23
HallsofIvy, thank you, the formula you have provided shows to me undoubtedly that you cannot go light speed, but very close to it, and i shall use 185999 for my velocity now, and I think i shall gain substantial knowledge and accurate answers from this.
 
  • #24
Hallsofivy, is there a name for the formula which you have provided me? thanks
 
  • #25
rocky14159 said:
Hallsofivy, is there a name for the formula which you have provided me? thanks

I thougt it was hootenanny in post #5 ? The formula is called Newtons second law.
 
  • #26
Not that one, the one that HallsofIvy posted in post 19
 
  • #27
ah, it is called "relativistic mass"

m = \gamma m_0

Where m_0 is the rest mass, and \gamma = 1/\sqrt{1-(v/c)^2} is called the Lorentz factor.
 
  • #28
By starting from the equation

<br /> F=\frac{dp}{dt},<br />

it is possible to solve a 3x3 matrix m so that

<br /> F=ma<br />

is true for all F and |v|<c. So F=ma can be made true, if we want so :wink: At least for the massive particles. I haven't tried it for the massless ones, though.
 
  • #29
Hootenanny said:
You should note that the product \left(\mathbf{F}\mathbf{\cdot}\mathbf{v}\right) isn't simply a scalar multiplication, rather it's the dot product between the two vectors (force and velocity).

Is this supposed to mean something? :confused:
 
  • #30
jostpuur said:
Is this supposed to mean something? :confused:
It means exactly what it says, I was merely emphasising the point since the OP was unsure as to notation.
 
  • #31
What is the difference between scalar and dot products in this context?
 
  • #32
jostpuur said:
What is the difference between scalar and dot products in this context?

Scalar multiplication vs the vector dot product? The latter is of course also known as the scalar product but we're talking about multiplication of two scalars vs a vector operation.
 
  • #33
So by "scalar multiplication" hootenanny meant a multiplication of two scalars? That would explain the confusion. But the dot product is also called the scalar product.

dot product = inner product = scalar product

Those are different names for the same thing.
 
  • #34
yeah, but he meant product by two scalars (the OP are unfamilar with linear algebra and vectors so it doesent matter)
 
  • #35
Generally scalar multiplication is taken too mean two things: either the multiplication of two scalar quantities or the multiplication of a vector by a scalar quantity. Whereas the term scalar product means the inner or dot product between two vectors.

Notice that in my post I said scalar multiplication and not scalar product, which are two different operations.
 
  • #36
rocky14159 said:
I am interested, and I wanted to see around how much U-235 you would have to fission (at 100% efficiency) to propel the space shuttle to light speed

Not sure what exactly 8th grader in US is, but let's try to take it to the level that should be understood by the 8th grader in Poland (AD 1977).

If you take a look at the relativitic mass calculated with Lorenz factor, you will see that the closer to the light speed you get, the larger the mass. For light speed denominator becomes 0 and mass becomes infinite (we can get bashed by nitpickers now, don't worry, just hold tight :wink:). This in turn means that you need more and more energy to increase the speed - and to get to the exactly speed of light you will need infinite amount of energy. For that you need infinite amount of uranium.
 
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  • #37
You can also work this problem without using F=ma. Instead, I would recommend using conservation of energy. If you convert a rest mass m to energy with 100% efficiency you get an energy

E = mc²

Now, if you put that energy entirely into increasing the kinetic energy of a mass M, then by conservation of energy you have that the total relativistic energy of M (γ Mc²) is equal to the rest energy of M (Mc²) plus the rest energy of m (mc²):

γ Mc² = mc² + Mc²

where γ = 1/sqrt(1-v²/c²)
 
  • #38
The concept of what a derivative is will probably not come to you easily. There is a real importance and significance behind it which is very subtle (and did not reach me until I was out of high school altogether). I didn't understand it until doing numerous problems involving derivatives and using calculus for proofs. Everyone 'knows' what a derivative is intuitively, it's just difficult to make the connection with the EXPLICIT concept and what you already 'know'.

However, there are simple ways to get an idea of what a derivative is without learning high-level maths. Physically speaking (in a real physics problem, in other words) a derivative is the rate of change of something. This something might be, for example, velocity, or even just plain old position.

As an example:

Consider a ball rolling across the floor. An easy way to get measurements for this ball is to draw an x-y grid on the floor and just use a stop watch to examine it. You can also imagine, for the sake of this problem, that we can pause everything as if it was videotaped - this way we can think better about what is going on.

So let's say you draw an x-y grid with every 'space' being 1 meter.

So at the very beginning of the experiment (at time 'zero' in other words), we have our clock handy and we're ready to go. The ball moves 1 meter and you decide to pause everything. Your clock/stopwatch reads 1 second. So at time '1 second' (in other words t=1), we'll say that x=1 (if it's traveling along your x axis, of course)

But let's continue on. We unpause up until the stopwatch reads 2 seconds (at t=2). At this point, we notice the ball has moved 4 meters altogether (or another way to look at it, it has moved 3 meters in the last second). Interesting, as it seems the ball has somehow sped up. So at t=2, x=4.

Unpausing for another second, we find out that the ball has now moved a total of 9 meters (or 5 meters since the last pause). So at t=3, x=9.

--------
To summarize, we have:

t=0, x=0
t=1, x=1
t=2, x=4
t=3, x=9

So what is all this analysis telling us? Well we've got these numbers, so we can graph them and find the relationship between them. So let's say we make a graph where x is the x-axis and t is the y-axis.

It's hard to imagine what that would look like without actually graphing it, but I'm going to cheat a little bit and just link you here ( hyperphysics. phy-astr. gsu. edu/hbasees/acons.html sorry about the spaces, it won't let me post a url) to give you an idea. That's skipping ahead, but this would otherwise be a book-length post. Ignore the equations there for the moment and just look at the graphs.

The graph would look like the 'position' graph there at the top. That makes sense, because think about t and x. When t goes up a bit, x tends to go up even more. If you had [t=1,x=1] and [t=2,x=2] and [t=3,x=3] and so on, it would be a straight line (graph those points and see this for yourself if you can't imagine it).

There's a very useful mathematical analysis tool called the slope, analagous to the slope of a mountain or cliff. Normally, you can only take the slope of a straight line (rise over run, or y over x), but in this case, we can just look a bit and I'll cheat at the end to keep this from being too long (as if that isn't already the case ;) ).

You can see, looking at those graphs, the 'velocity' graph has a constant slope. In other words, it's just as steep at the top of the mountain as at the bottom. The angle with the ground doesn't change so it looks like a triangle.

The 'position' graph, on the other hand, gets steeper as you go up the mountain, the angle with the ground gets bigger as you climb up. So this graph doesn't have a single 'slope' value, the slope goes up as you move along the graph.

Very surprisingly and astonishingly, if you work hard (really really hard) and figure out the slope by taking tiny increments in the 'position' graph, you will end up with points to plot the velocity graph! So what does that mean? Does it make sense?

If you think of the velocity graph as the slope of the position graph, it really does make sense. As you move to the right in the position graph, the slope steadily goes up higher and higher. That's exactly what the velocity graph is doing.

So what if we did it again? What if we graphed the slope of the velocity graph? Well the velocity graph has the same slope all the way, through right? So it would be just be some number, and that's what we see on the acceleration graph.

------
So what does that all mean? Slopes and graphs, these are just vague concepts, just drawing stuff on paper - what is the meaning behind it?

Remember what I said originally way back up at the top: the derivative is the rate of change of something. Look at the acceleration graph. Is it changing? No, it's the same all the way through. What about the velocity graph? Is it changing? Yeah it's changing at a pretty constant pace. If you go right a bit, it goes up a bit. The position graph? It's changing, but the change isn't constant. It becomes bigger and bigger as you go on. It turns out that the slope IS the derivative!

So now we have a sort of definition to go with, the derivative is the slope/rate of change of something. This can be understood without any physical analysis of any real system, but I find it much easier to think of this stuff in terms of real things going on - baseballs, pots and pans, and boulders instead of just fuzzy concepts.

So let's think back to the ball rolling on the floor. The 'what's the rate of change of position' would translate into 'how fast is it going?'. That makes sense right? I mean if it's position is changing, it must be moving, and therefore it has a speed right? But looking at the velocity graph, it's not constant. If you measure the velocity at one instance, it will be different from another one. At t=0, it turns out, it wasn't moving at all!

'What's the rate of change of velocity' translates to 'how fast is it accelerating?' Well it accelerates at a constant rate, so at ANY TIME you can say the ball has an acceleration of 'blah' - whatever that acceleration is (in this case I chose an acceleration of 2 m/s/s).

-----
So do physicists sit around all day drawing graphs and taking slopes and whatnot? No way! That takes far too long, as I've demonstrated here. We use equations and their derivatives to help us speed this stuff up.

For example, for a case like this, where we can see that the acceleration is constant, we have a very special beloved equation that goes as follows:

x = x_0 + v_0t + \frac{1}{2}at^2<br /> <br /> <br />
where x_0 is the beginning position, v_0 is the beginning velocity and a is the acceleration - all three of these are just numbers, so you can substitute any numbers you like in there.

In the example above, the beginning position is 0, and the beginning velocity is 0 - that makes it a bit simpler, but you can handle any problem with constant acceleration with this equation.

Taking the derivative directly of this equation (it's a simple mathematical process that you will learn in calculus) gives us an equation for velocity, since velocity is the derivative of position.

<br /> v = v_0 + at<br />

And finally, taking the derivative of that gives us an equation for acceleration since acceleration is the derivative of velocity.

<br /> a = a <br />
(just a number, remember)

-----
So the idea of a derivative is related to stuff you already understand pretty well. You understand that the rate of change of position is velocity and the rate of change of velocity is acceleration (to an extent, humans aren't so great at second derivatives intuitively). The strange thing is that it works out so well in mathematics in so many relationships, that it's difficult to bridge all the systems and rigor with your every-day experience.

I hope this was more helpful than short ;).
 
  • #39
jostpuur said:
So by "scalar multiplication" hootenanny meant a multiplication of two scalars? That would explain the confusion. But the dot product is also called the scalar product.

dot product = inner product = scalar product

Those are different names for the same thing.

HAHA he OWNED us :biggrin:
 
  • #40
Borek, I can't thank you enough! Now this all clicks!
 
  • #41
MeJennifer said:
In special relativity it is also F = m0A. And this forumla always works!
That expression only works when the object's mass is constant. It does not hold in general.

Pete
 
  • #42
so in other words, a more accurate form of F=ma would simply be F=(ym)a where y is the Lorentz factor?
 
  • #43
Well I'm not 14 ( 53 is close ) and I've just started to look into math and science, again.
I'm very glad some of you can dummy down some answers because I've learned more here in the past few months than all of high school ever taught me.

Mettra - Thanks, nice build up explanation.
 
  • #44
rocky14159 said:
so in other words, a more accurate form of F=ma would simply be F=(ym)a where y is the Lorentz factor?
No. It is more accurate to wrote F = dp/dt since it holds under all possible circumstances. Your expression holds only when the velocity is perpendicular to the acceleration.

Pete
 
  • #45
I understand that F=dp/dt is the true law from Newton, but what do the variables stand for?
 
  • #46
Force is equal to the rate of change of momentum
 
  • #47
rocky14159 said:
I understand that F=dp/dt is the true law from Newton, but what do the variables stand for?

F = 3-Force acting on object (as opposed to 4-force)

p = 3-momentum of object = mv

m = inertial mass of object

v = 3-velocity of object ( as opposed to 4-velocity)

Pete
 
  • #48
HallsofIvy said:
Certainly not. An object with rest mass m0, moving at speed v, will have relativistic mass of
\frac{m_0}{\sqrt{1- \frac{v^2}{c^2}}}

If you know about mass increasing I'm suprised you hadn't see that formula before.

Does this mean when the velocity = c then the answer is an imaginary number?
 
  • #49
not necessarily, but if u plot it on a graph, it will end when v=c, so it is incalculatable (for now)
 
  • #50
incalculable is by definition an imaginary number ? square root of zero = i
 
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