Monument to Homophobia in Casper, WY: God's Warning?

[phoenixthoth]

(Casper, Wyoming) Anti-gay preacher Fred Phelps has announced intentions to erect a monument to Matthew Shepard the gay college student brutally murdered five years ago near Laramie.

But, the monument will be no memorial. Phelps says the monument would be 5 to 6 feet tall and made of marble or granite. It would bear a bronze plaque bearing the image of Shepard and have an inscription reading "MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22."

The monument would be erected in downtown Casper, Shepard's home town.

Phelps has sent details of the monument to the city of Casper city council and there may be nothing the city can do to prevent it.

Phelps said he intends to put up the monument in City Park, already the location of a controversial statue of the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments statue was donated to the city by the Fraternal Order of the Eagles in 1965.

After a court battle over a similar monument in the city of Ogden, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that any city that displays a Ten Commandments monument on public property must also allow monuments espousing the views of other religions or political groups on that same property.

Phelps told Casper council in his letter that if it attempts to prevent him from erecting the homophobic monument he's prepared to go to court.

"That is exactly what I said would happen," said Councilwoman Barb Watters. She said she warned the city when it accepted the Ten Commandments statue that the city risked other monuments advocating anti-Semitism and hatred of other minorities.

''I think the hate language will find a very cold reception in this community,'' councilor Paul Bertoglio said. ''I think this community's backbone is going to come up and say 'We are not going to accept it.'''

The city council is looking at several options, one is fighting Phelps in court, another is moving the Ten Commandments out of the park, and yet another proposal would be to sell the land the park is on.

Phelps says he doesn't care what the city decides. If he is unable to put the statue in City Park he said he will find another location in the city.

During Shepard's funeral members of Phelps' Westoboro Baptist Church demonstrated in front of the chapel.

---

question: what evidence is there that it's God's warning and not the warning of a man?

 

[Zero]

Always nice to see a true Christian in action, isn't it?

 

[phoenixthoth]

reminds me of the guy recently executed for killing an abortion doctor who justified his action on his religious beliefs (which, i think, is christianity). I'm sure how this person could misinterpreted the statement, "thou shall not kill."

the bible may have said to not be homosexual.

i'll get around to finding this just for fun, but as i recall, it also says somewhere that beating your children is ok when they're out of line. there may also be something about a man owning his wife.

i'm not so sure everything in the bible can be taken as words straight out of God's mouth but rather as things that have been lost in translation (from God to man).

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
reminds me of the guy recently executed for killing an abortion doctor who justified his action on his religious beliefs (which, i think, is christianity). I'm sure how this person could misinterpreted the statement, "thou shall not kill."

the bible may have said to not be homosexual.

i'll get around to finding this just for fun, but as i recall, it also says somewhere that beating your children is ok when they're out of line. there may also be something about a man owning his wife.

i'm not so sure everything in the bible can be taken as words straight out of God's mouth but rather as things that have been lost in translation (from God to man).

That's why I called him a true Christian...he isn't all wishy-washy like you, he is following the true word and spirit of Christianity.

 

[phoenixthoth]

what does wishy-washy mean?

 

[Zero]

This is what I mean:

Originally posted by phoenixthoth

i'm not so sure everything in the bible can be taken as words straight out of God's mouth but rather as things that have been lost in translation (from God to man).

The Bible preaches that God hates rather large groups of people, and good Christians should hate them too, and kill them where appropriate.

 

[phoenixthoth]

where is stated that God hates anyone?

where is it hatred advocated?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
where is stated that God hates anyone?

where is it hatred advocated?

Well he sure as hell wants lots and lots of people dead, huh? All that rage and wrath and what-not...Genocide by the Jews, killing some witches, disobedient children, gay people, everyone on Earth but Noah that one time, everyone but lot and his sexy incestuous lovers from Sodom and Gomorrah...

 

[phoenixthoth]

the two questions remain unanswered.

Originally posted by Zero
Well he sure as hell wants lots and lots of people dead, huh? All that rage and wrath and what-not...Genocide by the Jews, killing some witches, disobedient children, gay people, everyone on Earth but Noah that one time, everyone but lot and his sexy incestuous lovers from Sodom and Gomorrah...

if God wants people dead, which isn't clearly evidenced to me by what any text may or may not suggest, it is up to it to decide when and where to carry that out, not us. it's not clear to me that God *wants* anything because wanting something suggests incompleteness, contradicting the completeness of God. that's not to suggest God doesn't act, just that the actions are not want-derivated.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
the two questions remain unanswered.



if God wants people dead, which isn't clearly evidenced to me by what any text may or may not suggest, it is up to it to decide when and where to carry that out, not us. it's not clear to me that God *wants* anything because wanting something suggests incompleteness, contradicting the completeness of God. that's not to suggest God doesn't act, just that the actions are not want-derivated.

Yeah, justify all you like, but the Bible preaches HATE, and true Christians express hate as often as possible. Maybe you should read the Bible.

 

[phoenixthoth]

where is hate preached in the bible? i have an electronic version of the king james bible and i searched for hate but there are lots of occurances. so far, none of them suggest that anyone or any group should be hated.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
where is hate preached in the bible?

Start about 12 pages in, and read through to the end.

 

[phoenixthoth]

can you give one example?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
can you give one example?

Do you suggest that the Bible says that you should love all teh people who God instructs you to kill?

 

[phoenixthoth]

can you give one example, from page 12 onward, where hate is preached?

can you give one example where God explicitly gives the instruction to kill?

jesus said to love thy neighbor as thyself. it is also written to love even thy enemy.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
can you give one example, from page 12 onward, where hate is preached?

can you give one example where God explicitly gives the instruction to kill?

jesus said to love thy neighbor as thyself. it is also written to love even thy enemy.

Jesus was a hippie...God wants just about everyone dead, except good Jews, apparently...I'm sure that carries on to Christians too.

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Zero
Jesus was a hippie...God wants just about everyone dead, except good Jews, apparently...I'm sure that carries on to Christians too.

that isn't an answer to either question so I'm not sure where you're getting the statement "God wants just about everyone dead." where are you getting this statement?

again, God does not want anything because that would suggest incompleteness which would contradict the fact that God is complete.

if God wanted just about everyone dead, being omnipotent, it would already be the case that just about everyone is dead.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
that isn't an answer to either question so I'm not sure where you're getting the statement "God wants just about everyone dead." where are you getting this statement?

again, God does not want anything because that would suggest incompleteness which would contradict the fact that God is complete.

Blah blah blah...read your Bible! You aren't much of a Christian, are you...selectively reading the Bible for the 'feel-good' stuff.

Let's play a game, shall we? Because the Bible is chock full of God either killing people, telling his followers to treat others like crap, etc...you pick a book of the Bible, and I'll give you an example, ok? And don't give me that stuff about 'Only the New Testament counts", because if that were true, then Christains would stop claiming that passages from the OT are relevant.

Bring it on!


(BTW, I'm an ordained minister, FYI... )

 

[Zero]

I'm just having fun with you, chum...even though I am also right, and I do think you should read teh Bible a little more closely...

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Zero
Blah blah blah...read your Bible! You aren't much of a Christian, are you...selectively reading the Bible for the 'feel-good' stuff.

Let's play a game, shall we? Because the Bible is chock full of God either killing people, telling his followers to treat others like crap, etc...you pick a book of the Bible, and I'll give you an example, ok? And don't give me that stuff about 'Only the New Testament counts", because if that were true, then Christains would stop claiming that passages from the OT are relevant.

Bring it on!


(BTW, I'm an ordained minister, FYI... )

i don't care if you're an ordained minister.

the bible should be selectively read because it's not always written by people free of ego taint.

can you give one example in Genesis where hate is preached?

can you give one example in Genesis where God explicitly gives the instruction to kill?

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by Zero
(BTW, I'm an ordained minister, FYI... )

Ordained by whom? Rolling Stone magazine?

 

[phoenixthoth]

"You aren't much of a Christian, are you..."

i don't know what your definition of christian is, but i may very well not be a christian at all.

whether or not I'm christian has no bearing on the requests for examples that hate is preached and that God gives the instruction to people to kill.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
i don't care if you're an ordained minister.

the bible should be selectively read because it's not always written by people free of ego taint.

can you give one example in Genesis where hate is preached?

can you give one example in Genesis where God explicitly gives the instruction to kill?

Good call...you moral relativist, you!

Jeez, did you miss the part where God murders every man, woman, and child on Earth except Noah and the clan?!? And then all the innocent babies in Sodom and Gomorrah...you must have breezed over that part. God does most of the killing, but you know the saying about leading by example, right?
Plus, all of Chapter 34 is ugly in how God's chosen are murdering, lying thugs...all in a day's work for the chosen ones of your God.

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Zero
Good call...you moral relativist, you!

Jeez, did you miss the part where God murders every man, woman, and child on Earth except Noah and the clan?!? And then all the innocent babies in Sodom and Gomorrah...you must have breezed over that part. God does most of the killing, but you know the saying about leading by example, right?
Plus, all of Chapter 34 is ugly in how God's chosen are murdering, lying thugs...all in a day's work for the chosen ones of your God.

how does that constitute the preaching of hate?

where does God give instructions for people to kill? you said, "...all teh [sic] people who God instructs you to kill"

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Tsunami
Ordained by whom? Rolling Stone magazine?

This means nothing. My cousin who is all of 19,hasn't set foot in a church in 10 years, and probably couldn't quote 3 verses from genesis is an ordained minister- you can get them off the internet- just send them your info, and viola! you're ordained.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
how does that constitute the preaching of hate?

where does God give instructions for people to kill?

You missed huge chunks of Leviticus, which can also be called 'God's hit list'...go read it, then come back. Then read Numbers, where reapeat3ed, God advises to kill strangers.

Wanna know about God and killing? Ask the Amorites, or the Midianites...

 

[phoenixthoth]

it isn't clear to me that being ordained grants one or is evidenced by knowledge of God's true nature.

btw, isn't saying "jeez" a violation of "thou shall not take the lord's name in vain?"

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Tsunami
Ordained by whom? Rolling Stone magazine?

Hush! Good times, my child...send me money?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
it isn't clear to me that being ordained grants one or is evidenced by knowledge of God's true nature.

No, because since God is a myth, you can make up whatever makes you feel good. You feel good by thinking there is a loving God, Phelps feels good by thinking God hates 'sinners'...both views are supported by your mythology.

 

[Zero]

OK, I'm starting to get sleepy...let's get specific to this topic, shall we?

Phelps is correct, by his faith, and his Bible. Homosexuals are an abomination unto the LORD, baby! And what is an abomination? "That which is abominable; anything hateful, wicked, or shamefully vile; an object or state that excites disgust and hatred; a hateful or shameful vice; pollution"

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Zero
You missed huge chunks of Leviticus, which can also be called 'God's hit list'...go read it, then come back. Then read Numbers, where reapeat3ed, God advises to kill strangers.

Wanna know about God and killing? Ask the Amorites, or the Midianites...

changing the rules of the game, are we? you said i can pick any book. again and again, you fail to answer my questions.

give the address of the passage where God advises to kill strangers to that i can verify it. also, which version of the bible is that from?

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by Zero
Hush! Good times, my child...send me money?

Didn't you mean High Times (magazine)? Send you money where?

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Zero
No, because since God is a myth, you can make up whatever makes you feel good. You feel good by thinking there is a loving God, Phelps feels good by thinking God hates 'sinners'...both views are supported by your mythology.

i doubt that phelps feels good. what's your evidence that he feels good? what's your evidence that i feel good, that what i believe is making me feel good?

i feel no better about what I'm saying about God as when i write down 1+1=2.

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Zero
OK, I'm starting to get sleepy...let's get specific to this topic, shall we?

Phelps is correct, by his faith, and his Bible. Homosexuals are an abomination unto the LORD, baby! And what is an abomination? "That which is abominable; anything hateful, wicked, or shamefully vile; an object or state that excites disgust and hatred; a hateful or shameful vice; pollution"

where does his bible say that homosexuals should be hated?

by "get specific to the topic" it sounds like you don't want to play the game you proposed anymore because that's not about what phelps is doing. that's a convienient "out", now isn't it?

how can an ordained minister get tired of talking 'bout da LORD??

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
where does his bible say that homosexuals should be hated?

by "get specific to the topic" it sounds like you don't want to play the game you proposed anymore because that's not about what phelps is doing. that's a convienient "out", not isn't it?

What else do you do with an abomination? Dress it up in ribbons and put it on display?

 

[phoenixthoth]

while jesus may not dress it up, he wouldn't, nor did he ever, advocate hating it.

i'm still waiting for your explanation of Genesis is preaching hate or how God is instructing people to kill. that and for the address of the passage where God instructs you to kill strangers.

 

[Tsu]

Alright. How about this? "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "vengence is mine sayeth the Lord". Look, I'm a Christian, but Phelps is WRONG!

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by Tsunami
Alright. How about this? "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "vengence is mine sayeth the Lord". Look, I'm a Christian, but Phelps is WRONG!

exactly when did the Lord say that? and to whom?

even if the lord did say that, it suggests that vengence is not ours.

judgement is an epidemic in society. remember this also means to not judge yourself (you know, "i'm ugly" "i'm stupid", etc).

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
exactly when did the Lord say that? and to whom?

even if the lord did say that, it suggests that vengence is not ours.

"Judge not..." Matthew 7:1
"Vengence is mine..." Romans 12:19
These are both out of the new testament.
You are correct. Vengence is not ours. That's why I say Phelps is wrong to erect a 'monument' declaring that the murdered individual entered Hell. How does HE know? Is he God? He can preach all he wants, but he doesn't act like a Christian to me. Remember, Jesus did away with Mosaic law, which seems to be pretty much what Zero is objecting to in the old testament. Old testament books are pretty harsh.

judgement is an epidemic in society. remember this also means to not judge yourself (you know, "i'm ugly" "i'm stupid", etc).

Yes judgement does seem to be an epidemic in society, but what is your point here? (And who is calling me ugly and stupid? No one here knows what I look like! )

 

[phoenixthoth]

"Judge not..." Matthew 7:1
"Vengence is mine..." Romans 12:19
These are both out of the new testament.
You are correct. Vengence is not ours. That's why I say Phelps is wrong to erect a 'monument' declaring that the murdered individual entered Hell. How does HE know? Is he God? He can preach all he wants, but he doesn't act like a Christian to me. Remember, Jesus did away with Mosaic law, which seems to be pretty much what Zero is objecting to in the old testament. Old testament books are pretty harsh.

i know that a man wrote "vengence is mine sayeth the lord," but when did the lord say it?

Yes judgement does seem to be an epidemic in society, but what is your point here? (And who is calling me ugly and stupid? No one here knows what I look like! )

my point was to support the "judge not lest ye be judged" statement. "i'm ugly" and "i'm stupid" are just two examples of ways people judge themselves. one may not judge others but still judge themselves. the statement refers both to others and the self. this goes the other way, too. "i'm good" is another judgement. there was a story about how while jesus was away the disciples were arguing about who is greatest among them. jesus reportedly replied something like this: whoever is the first (greatest) is the last, the servant of all. suddenly, no one wanted to be the greatest anymore.

 

[Tsu]

You may want to continue through Matthew 4 and finish reading Romans for a clearer picture of what I'm trying to say here.

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
i know that a man wrote "vengence is mine sayeth the lord," but when did the lord say it?

Yes, Paul wrote the book of Romans, but he was a disciple of Christ and was charged with spreading the word and teachings of the Lord. If you believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, then there you have 'the word of the Lord'. This, however will always be in dispute among non-Christians and Christians alike.

my point was to support the "judge not lest ye be judged" statement. "i'm ugly" and "i'm stupid" are just two examples of ways people judge themselves. one may not judge others but still judge themselves. the statement refers both to others and the self. this goes the other way, too. "i'm good" is another judgement. there was a story about how while jesus was away the disciples were arguing about who is greatest among them. jesus reportedly replied something like this: whoever is the first (greatest) is the last, the servant of all. suddenly, no one wanted to be the greatest anymore.

OK. But I'm still not sure what these two statements have to do with the topic presented for discussion. Did I miss something?

 

[phoenixthoth]

much that has been said doesn't have to do with the original post.

 

[Tsu]

Goodnight, Phoenix. Sleep well.

 

[enigma]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth

can you give one example where God explicitly gives the instruction to kill?

You asked:

Kill all homosexuals...
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Kill the people God doesn't like (one of several instances of Genocide)
Numbers:
31:7
And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:9
And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10
And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Exodus:
32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

What a loving God you have...

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by enigma
You asked:

Kill all homosexuals...
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Kill the people God doesn't like (one of several instances of Genocide)
Numbers:
31:7
And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:9
And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10
And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Exodus:
32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

What a loving God you have...

Yes, actually we do if you read the new testament, which came along because God was totally fed up with the wishy-washiness of the Jews and their acceptance of multiple forms of paganism.
Again, these examples of yours are all out of the old testament and are considered part and parcel of Mosaic Law, which was necessary for the times that they were written in. When Jesus arrived on the scene, he told of the Good News that all were to be forgiven their sins in the process of repentence. I, personally, have little doubt that homosexuality and child abuse are still considered sins in the eyes of the Lord, but the new testament proclaims that God, and ONLY God is to be their judge in the determination of whether or not an individual will be sent to hell for them. This Baptist pastor is the one who is PLAYING God by proclaiming that the murdered individual 'entered Hell'.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Zero
Yeah, justify all you like, but the Bible preaches HATE, and true Christians express hate as often as possible. Maybe you should read the Bible.

How can you say things like that in light of your defense of Islam from a similar attack?

In any case, religion thread. Closed in 3...2...1...

 

[Zantra]

I agree with zero that the bible just propogate some hatred.

But I really doubt he's a minister. I think you've broken half of the 10 commandments on PF alone

 

[megashawn]

Well, Like someone said you can become a minister over the internet, and it doesn't have to be christian at all.

Zero, did you get into some kind of non-religous Unitarian or something sometime ago? Seems I remember a post on pf 2 about it.

As to the statue, anyone want to place bets on how long it takes someone to blow it up?

This attitude the preacher conveys is not only the problem with most religion/churches, but with the country in general. People walk around in a state of bliss, not concerned with all the ugly details in life, thinking they have all the answers. This guy probably thinks he is in direct communication with god and I'd say possibly justifies his intentions with such an excuse. Whether he is or not, is another topic all together.

If this monument is in anyway funded by tax money, or placed on government land, I do not see how it could be legal. The mere message he intends is insulting and degrading to the man and his family. Sure you have freedom of speech, but only when that freedom doesn't infringe on that of others. This guy is way out of line.

And frankly, if plans on making such a bold statement and represent it as factual, then he should provide evidence. Perhaps a testimony from god or the angel that carries the message.

 

[phoenixthoth]

Originally posted by russ_watters
How can you say things like that in light of your defense of Islam from a similar attack?

In any case, religion thread. Closed in 3...2...1...

are you serious?

what's the rationale behind closing a thread primarily about religion in a general discussion forum?