Magnet Phenomenon: The divergent region of a ring magnet

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the magnetic field behavior of a NdFeB ring magnet, specifically focusing on a phenomenon described as the "divergent" region of the magnet. Participants explore the observed magnetic field orientation and strength using a Hall Effect sensor, questioning theoretical expectations versus experimental results. The scope includes experimental observations, theoretical interpretations, and potential explanations for the discrepancies noted in the magnetic field readings.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the unexpected reversal of magnetic field orientation when measuring from more than 0.5" away from the center of the ring magnet, suggesting this phenomenon is not due to hysteresis.
  • Another participant notes that the expected readings show saturation directly over the rim and a reversal in the open center, which contradicts the initial image provided.
  • Some participants argue that at large distances, the magnet behaves like a dipole, with the field orientation aligning with that above the magnetic parts.
  • A later reply mentions that the field pattern should be described by a modified illustration, indicating that the field diverges from the dipole field near the magnet.
  • One participant suggests that the non-ideal nature of the magnet, including potential non-uniform magnetization, contributes to the observed divergence from expected dipole behavior.
  • Another participant questions why the region near the magnet diverges from the dipole field, prompting further exploration of the magnet's characteristics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the expected behavior of the magnetic field, with multiple competing views on the nature of the field near the magnet versus at a distance. The discussion remains unresolved as participants explore different hypotheses and interpretations.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about the uniformity of magnetization and the ideal dipole model, as well as the dependence on measurement distance and orientation. The discussion reflects varying interpretations of experimental data and theoretical expectations.

Ask Why!
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Magnet Phenomenon: The "divergent" region of a ring magnet

Here's a puzzler:
I have a NdFeB ring magnet, 1.75" outer diameter x 1.375" inner diameter x 0.25" thick, N40 grade. It is axially magnetized so that the north pole is toward one face and the south pole is toward the opposite face. The following image shows the well-known theoretical orientation of the magnetic field around the magnet, given that the north pole is on top:

fig9.ashx?w=450&h=438&as=1.jpg

SIDE VIEW

I have been in the lab determining the magnetic field orientation and approximate strength of the magnet using a linear Hall Effect sensor. The attached image shows the test configuration, with the orange arrow representing the dimension that was varied in the observance of the phenomenon. The image is not to scale.

If I move the sensor across the magnet, I get the expected readings: Saturation in one field orientation directly over the rim of the ring magnet, then a reversal of orientation in the open center of the magnet. BUT, if I take a reading over the center of the magnet from more than 0.5" away from the direct center along the cylindrical axis, the orientation of the magnetic field is the opposite of that observed over the center of the ring from within 0.5". I am having trouble explaining why this is the case.

The following leads me to strongly believe that this phenomenon is NOT DUE TO HYSTERESIS: The same effect is observable even if I allow the sensor to return to its quiescent voltage and then approach over the open center from a distance. The field is the reverse of the theoretical field indicated in the above image, until 0.5" from the center of the ring, at which point it reverses to the expected orientation.
The analogous effect is observable on the opposite side of the ring, that is, if we put south on top and kept the sensor in the same orientation.

Can anyone explain what is happening in what I have been calling the "divergent" region?
Please indicate if you are hypothesizing or applying accepted theory.
 

Attachments

  • orientation.PNG
    orientation.PNG
    3.4 KB · Views: 651
Physics news on Phys.org
I get the expected readings: Saturation in one field orientation directly over the rim of the ring magnet, then a reversal of orientation in the open center of the magnet.
That is not in agreement with your image, where you have the same orientation in both cases.
Far away from your magnet, it looks like a dipole - along the axis, the orientation of the field is the same as the orientation directly above the magnetic parts.
 
mfb said:
That is not in agreement with your image, where you have the same orientation in both cases.
Far away from your magnet, it looks like a dipole - along the axis, the orientation of the field is the same as the orientation directly above the magnetic parts.

Point taken. I have attached a more accurate illustration of the expected field.
 

Attachments

  • expected_field.PNG
    expected_field.PNG
    8 KB · Views: 710
That is not what I would expect.

For large distances, the field is always a dipole field if there is a dipole component (as there are no magnetic monopoles) - and your magnet has a dipole component.
 
You find some calculations of the field of permanent magnets in the very good book

A. Sommerfeld, Lectures on Theoretical Physics, Vol. III (Electrodynamics)

Of course, the main contribution of the multipole expansion not too close to such a magnet is the dipole contribution.
 
mfb said:
That is not what I would expect.

For large distances, the field is always a dipole field if there is a dipole component (as there are no magnetic monopoles) - and your magnet has a dipole component.

After probing the ring more carefully, I found the field is better described by the attached modified image. The green arrows show the field further from the magnet. Note the areas directly above and below the hole where the yellow and green direction arrows are tip to tip and tail to tail.

mfb, is this more what you would expect?
 

Attachments

  • observed_field.PNG
    observed_field.PNG
    20.9 KB · Views: 745
What field pattern do you get if you remove the permanent magnet well away from the area?
 
Ask Why! said:
mfb, is this more what you would expect?
That is what I expected, indeed.
 
Perhaps the real question I should ask is:
Why does the region near the magnet diverge from the dipole field?
 
  • #10
It's because what you have is not an ideal dipole, which has an infinitesimal size. Each infinitesimal piece of your magnet acts as an ideal dipole (I think, considering it as a continuous substance and ignoring variations at the atomic scale). Each piece is at a different location, hence at a different distance and direction from the point at which you measure the field. Also, the magnet may not be uniformly magnetized, in which case the different pieces would have different dipole moments.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
10K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
16K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
13K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K