Magnetic Energy of Solenoid With/Without Core

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the magnetic energy stored in solenoids with different core materials, specifically comparing air-filled cores and steel cores. Participants explore the implications of permeability on magnetic field strength and energy density, engaging in both theoretical and conceptual reasoning.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that the energy density formula indicates that an air-filled core solenoid stores more energy than a steel core solenoid due to the smaller denominator when using μ=μ0 for air and μ=~100μ0 for steel.
  • Another participant clarifies that the magnetic field B in a solenoid is proportional to the permeability of the core material, suggesting that the value of B will increase with a ferromagnetic core.
  • A participant elaborates on the energy stored in solenoids, proposing that for the same magnetic field strength B, the energy stored in an air core is significantly greater than in a steel core due to the difference in permeability.
  • Questions arise about the conditions under which both solenoids could have the same magnetic field B, with participants discussing the possibility of adjusting current to achieve this.
  • One participant introduces a counterexample, suggesting that if extreme currents were applied, the energy density could be higher in a steel core solenoid compared to an air core solenoid, despite the general assumptions about energy density.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the conditions of the current being the same when comparing the two types of cores.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between core material, magnetic field strength, and energy density. There is no consensus on whether an air core or a steel core solenoid stores more energy under all conditions, as various factors such as current and magnetic saturation are considered.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the dependence of magnetic field strength on the permeability of the core material and the potential for magnetic saturation to affect energy storage. The discussion includes hypothetical scenarios that may not reflect practical limits.

dgreenheck
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I have a question about solenoids.

The formula for the magnetic field energy density is:

\frac{1}{2}\frac{B^{2}}{μ}

If I have an air-filled core, then μ=μ0. If I have a steel core, then μ will be ~ 100μ0. This implies that an air-filled core solenoid stores more energy than a steel core solenoid since the denominator for the air-core case is smaller.

Doesn't this contradict the fact that solenoids with a ferromagnetic core produce stronger magnetic fields than a solenoids with no core?
 
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In a solenoid B=μnI where n is the number of turns per unit length, so your value for 'B' will increase with a change in the medium.
 
dgreenheck said:
This implies that an air-filled core solenoid stores more energy than a steel core solenoid since the denominator for the air-core case is smaller.
It stores more energy for the same magnitude of B. You have:

Uair = 1/2*B2*V/μair
Usteel = 1/2*B2*V/μsteel = 1/2*B2*V/(100*μair) ⇔
Uair = 100*Usteel

where U is the potential energy stored by the solenoid and V is the volume of its interior.

Think of it this way, it takes less effort (work) to increase the magnitude of B in a steel core solenoid than in an air core solenoid, so for the same magnitude of B, less potential energy is stored.
 
Okay, both of your responses make sense. Is there ever a time where you would have the same B, though? If the B field is always dependent on the permeability of the material it's flowing through, the squared factor of mu on top will cancel out the factor of mu in the denominator and the energy density will always be higher, correct?
 
dgreenheck said:
Is there ever a time where you would have the same B, though?
Well, sure. I could adjust the current through both solenoids until it gave me the same magnitude of B.

There might be a limit to the magnitude of B in a solenoid if you take into account magnetic saturation, but that's beside the point.

dgreenheck said:
If the B field is always dependent on the permeability of the material it's flowing through, the squared factor of mu on top will cancel out the factor of mu in the denominator and the energy density will always be higher, correct?
Energy density just means the energy stored per unit of volume.

Consider this as a counterexample:
Assume it's possible for the sake of argument to run 1 million amps through a steel core solenoid. If I ran 1 milliamp through the same solenoid but replaced the core material with air, I'd be confident in telling you that the energy density would be higher in the case of the steel core solenoid.
 
Last edited:
I meant to say for the same current. All that is happening is the core is being inserted or removed. But I understand now, thank you.
 
dgreenheck said:
I meant to say for the same current.
Ah, then as rock.freak667 wrote, you have:
Uair/V = 1/2*μair*n2*I2
Usteel/V = 1/2*μsteel*n2*I2 = 1/2*100*μair*n2*I2
Usteel/V = 100*Uair/V

where n is the number of turns of the solenoid.
 

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