Measure (rings and algebras) question: smallest ring containing a set

  • Thread starter Thread starter VonWeber
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Measure Ring Set
Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of the smallest ring containing a class of sets, D, within a space X. The original poster is exploring the conditions under which such a ring can be established, particularly contrasting finite and infinite cases.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to reason through the existence of a smallest ring by considering finite cases and the use of set differences. They express uncertainty regarding infinite or uncountable cases and seek hints rather than direct solutions. Other participants raise concerns about omitted information and question the validity of the original poster's assumptions. There is also a discussion about the properties of rings in measure theory and the relevance of intersections of rings.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants exploring various interpretations of the problem. Some guidance has been offered regarding the properties of rings and the potential existence of a largest ring. However, there is no explicit consensus on the approach to take or the assumptions involved.

Contextual Notes

There are indications that the original poster may have omitted critical information regarding the nature of the sets in D. Additionally, the distinction between finite and infinite cases is a point of contention, with implications for the existence of the smallest ring.

VonWeber
Messages
52
Reaction score
0

Homework Statement



Let D be a class of sets of space X. There exists a unique smallest ring, R, containing D

The Attempt at a Solution



I'm working on the existence part.

If D were finite, I think that it would be possible to use set differences to find a set, D', of smaller sets from D (ones that could not be cut smaller using sets in D ).One could take all possible unions of sets in D'. I believe this would be one such set R.

However, if D were infinite or uncountable then I don't have any intuition. I'd prefer a hint rather then be given the solution...
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You've either omitted a lot of important information, or your question is trivially false.

e.g. given any set of 4 objects, there are 24 different rings that contain exactly those 4 objects and nothing else, organized into two isomorphism classes of 12 each. (One class is isomorphic to [itex]\mathbb{Z} / 4[/itex], and the other to [itex]\mathbb{Z} / 2 \times \mathbb{Z} / 2[/itex]) And there may be more that I overlooked!
 
Rings in measure theory, as in rings and algebras. I have that in the title of my post but forgot the word 'theory'... These rings are defined to be classes of sets

closed under unions,
closed under set differences (aka relative complement),
and containing the empty set.

I think I've made a little progress on this one though. The previous problem is to show that intersections of rings (algebras, sigma-rings and sigma-algebras) are also rings (algebras, sigma-rings and sigma-algebras).

I think that is relevant. If one could show that there must be at least one ring that contains all the sets in D then the intersection of all possible rings containing D must be the smallest such set. So I guess what I'm still missing is to show that there are such rings.
 
Last edited:
VonWeber said:
So I guess what I'm still missing is to show that there are such rings.
I assume earlier when you said "sets of space X" you were referring to subsets of (the set of points of) X? If so... isn't there a largest ring?

If one could show that there must be at least one ring that contains all the sets in D then the intersection of all possible rings containing D must be the smallest such set.
That sounds like a good approach.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
Replies
7
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K