Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Featured Meteorite older than Earth

  1. Jan 10, 2018 #1

    jim mcnamara

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor


    The Hypatia Stone is a small meteorite from SW Egypt. Petrographic and chemical analysis by a group of researchers mostly from University of Johannesburg found element abundances and other unique chemical anomalies in the meteorite. They suggest that the object originated in the interstellar dust cloud, likely before the formation of Earth.

    Some unique chemicals found in the specimen have never been seen in any other solar system object for which we have data. This may imply that our model of the solar system prior to planetary formation needs consideration.

    Georgy A. Belyanin, Jan D. Kramers, Marco A.G. Andreoli, Francesco
    Greco, Arnold Gucsik, Tebogo V. Makhubela, Wojciech J. Przybylowicz,
    Michael Wiedenbeck. Petrography of the carbonaceous, diamond-bearing
    stone “Hypatia” from southwest Egypt: A contribution to the debate on
    its origin. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta, 2018; 223: 462 DOI:10.1016/j.gca.2017.12.020
  2. jcsd
  3. Jan 11, 2018 #2


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member


    pretty awesome :smile:
  4. Jan 11, 2018 #3
    I'm curious. What does it potentially suggest that might have implications for a model of the solar system?
  5. Jan 11, 2018 #4

    jim mcnamara

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Our current model assumes different "starting ingredients" for the Solar System - specifically the abundance of elements in dust and small objects - the sample does not match up at all. So it may not be explainable using the current assumptions about "starting ingredients". Read the Science mag article for a detailed explanation of why. And note the paper title implies an ongoing discussion about the ultimate origins of the Hypatia stone.
  6. Jan 12, 2018 #5
    Thanks Jim! Thought provoking article.
  7. Jan 12, 2018 #6


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper
    Gold Member

    So much for "cosmic abundances."
  8. Jan 18, 2018 #7
    There isn't anything regarding dating using isotopes. Is that not possible with this sort of sample?
  9. Jan 18, 2018 #8

    jim mcnamara

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    @pinball1970 - I do not know, but I assume other researchers have done something to establish age. This is part of a discussion, my quick search did not find much. Try an extended search in Google Scholar.
  10. Jan 18, 2018 #9

    jim mcnamara

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    I got 20+ hits on google scholar for the search: hypatia stone meteorite - the default editor munged this, so I manually cleaned it up ... sort of.

    Cosmogenic nuclides

    I Leya, https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=DkqU0V4AAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra J Masarik
    - Meteoritics & Planetary Science, 2009 - Wiley Online Library

    Teil A 21: 414–426 … 1990. Chemical analyses of meteorites: A compilation of stony
    and iron meteorite analyses. Meteoritics 25: 323–337 …

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=11967354693768954104&as_sdt=5,32&sciodt=0,32&hl=en Cited by 105

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:-MAzL7CVFKYJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 Related articles

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=11967354693768954104&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 All 6 versions[

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0016703781900454 The Acapulco meteorite: chemistry, mineralogy and irradiation effects[
    H Palme, L Schultz, B Spettel, HW Weber… - … et Cosmochimica Acta, 1981 - Elsevier
    … Differences to ordinary chon- 1.9 kg stone was found … ii..r avoid any confusion, we adopted here
    the name under reduced mmera1 chemistry compared with ordinary which the meteorite was
    reported … meteorites also have oxygen isotope compositions 727 728 H. PALME et al …

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=18036667521183168297&as_sdt=5,32&sciodt=0,32&hl=en Cited by 86 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:KbfyU4wdT_oJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 Related articles https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=18036667521183168297&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 All 6 versions[

    https://www.researchgate.net/profil...e_Diamonds/links/54dd95cd0cf25b09b9140f85.pdf [PDF] researchgate.net[

    https://www.scientific.net/AMR.996.969 Non-destructive residual stress investigations of natural polycrystalline diamonds[
    AM Venter, V Luzin, MAG Andreoli… - Advanced Materials …, 2014 - Trans Tech Publ
    … The study reveals that the stones are primarily composed of cubic diamond with varying amounts
    of impurities that emanate from their excessive porosities and entrapped … Shock-metamorphism
    in meteorite impact processes [Ultra HT … [6] proposing that the Hypatia stone was a …
    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=12195958900258441958&as_sdt=5,32&sciodt=0,32&hl=en Cited by 1 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:5goruQDAQKkJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 Related articles https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=12195958900258441958&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 All 4 versions[

    https://www.researchgate.net/profil...t-Inheritance-from-a-cold-molecular-cloud.pdf [PDF] researchgate.net[

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168583X1500837X PIXE micro-mapping of minor elements in Hypatia, a diamond bearing carbonaceous stone from the Libyan Desert Glass area, Egypt: Inheritance from a cold …[
    MAG Andreoli, WJ Przybylowicz, https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=jwUQp4UAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra J Kramers[… - Nuclear Instruments and …, 2015 - Elsevier
    … Matter originating from space, particularly if it represents rare meteorite samples, is ideally suited
    to be studied by … of the sample broke out along one of the micro-fractures that extensively pervade
    the stone [7] resulting in two separate subsamples (Hypatia//Mick Rebak …

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=15985974466506792434&as_sdt=5,32&sciodt=0,32&hl=en Cited by 1 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:8h2aeBSX2d0J:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 Related articles https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=15985974466506792434&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 All 4 versions[

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016703717307962 Petrography of the carbonaceous, diamond-bearing stone “Hypatia” from southwest Egypt: A contribution to the debate on its origin[

    https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=wfxy_x8AAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra GA Belyanin[, https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=jwUQp4UAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra JD Kramers[, MAG Andreoli… - … et Cosmochimica Acta, 2017 - Elsevier
    … This has thus far prevented classification of Hypatia as a meteorite, as the Meteoritical Society
    stipulates for … This circumstance has however not brought research on Hypatia to a halt. Within
    its carbonaceous matrix, the stone contains a variety of mineral inclusions (Kramers et al …
    https://arxiv.org/pdf/1510.06594 [PDF] arxiv.org
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X15006482 A comprehensive study of noble gases and nitrogen in “Hypatia”, a diamond-rich pebble from SW Egypt[

    G Avice, https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Qo26UaMAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra MMM Meier[, B Marty, R Wieler… - Earth and Planetary …, 2015 - Elsevier
    … These authors performed an exploratory analytical study on Hypatia, including XRD, SEM, Raman
    spectroscopy, TEM … of C and noble gas isotopes motivated by the fact that this stone was found …
    Noble gas isotope analysis is central to the study of meteorites because these rocks …
    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=4352323811968745001&as_sdt=5,32&sciodt=0,32&hl=en Cited by 3 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:Kf7eh3KPZjwJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 Related articles https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=4352323811968745001&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 All 16 versions[
    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19780021065.pdf [PDF] nasa.gov
    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19780021065 Dynamical evidence regarding the
    relationship between asteroids and meteorites
    GW Wetherill - 1978 - ntrs.nasa.gov
    … The principal problem is a quantitative one, as best estimates of the meteorite yield 9 on Earth
    from this … it is not clear if a major or only a minor part of the Earth's meteorites are produced … Aglaja
    2.88 .14 5 471 Papagena 2.89 .24 15 386 Siegena 2.90 .17 20 238 Hypatia 2.91 .09 …

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=17113371593081638438&as_sdt=5,32&sciodt=0,32&hl=en Cited by 22 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:Jk7kGsvofu0J:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 Related articles https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=17113371593081638438&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 All 5 versions[

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X13004998 Unique chemistry of a diamond-bearing pebble from the Libyan Desert Glass strewnfield, SW Egypt: Evidence for a shocked comet fragment[

    https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=jwUQp4UAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra JD Kramers[, MAG Andreoli, M Atanasova… - Earth and Planetary …, 2013 - Elsevier
    … On the other hand, Hypatia could be connected to the Libyan Desert Glass formation. In this
    context the stone could be a piece of coal or carbonaceous shale in the target area … phase, as
    proposed by Barakat (see above), or might be a fragment of a meteorite which impacted …

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=8053782566101940264&as_sdt=5,32&sciodt=0,32&hl=en Cited by 12 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:KHi9tpLIxG8J:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 Related articles https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=8053782566101940264&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 All 5 versions[

    http://blog.seniorennet.be/peter2011/archief.php?catID=12891 seniorennet.be

    http://blog.seniorennet.be/peter2011/archief.php?catID=12891 Here's your chance to take a 360-degree tour of the Milky Way[
    M Murphy - blog.seniorennet.be
    … 20 percent of a meteorite's original mass to be present to officially declare it to be a meteorite …
    The Earth and other rocky planets are full of silicates, and so are stony meteorites. If the matrix
    of the Hypatia stone formed from the solar nebula, that nebula couldn't have been totally …

    http://boris.unibe.ch/81643/8/SSR-Bockelee_revised_29Apr.pdf [PDF] unibe.ch

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-015-0156-9 Cometary isotopic measurements[
    D Bockelée-Morvan, U Calmonte, S Charnley… - Space science …, 2015 - Springer
    … mineralogical and isotopic analyses at different scales down to the nanometer permit direct
    comparison with asteroidal material delivered by meteorites … Recently, a piece of carbon-rich
    material found in Egypt and nicknamed Hypatia has been interpreted as originating from a …

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=2706090135816363938&as_sdt=5,32&sciodt=0,32&hl=en Cited by 31

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:ot-FG6T2jSUJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 Related articles

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=2706090135816363938&hl=en&as_sdt=0,32 All 14 versions[
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  11. Jan 19, 2018 #10
    Or maybe we got the Solar System's formation right, but Hypatia is actually the little sister of ʻOumuamua that had nothing to do with our system before the fall.
  12. Jan 22, 2018 #11
    @Jim Thanks I will check these out
  13. Mar 28, 2018 #12
    What about the possibility that meteorite came from another star system? If it seems to be older than Earth what evidence is there it is from OUR early solar system? I would think that question should be answered before making sweeping statements about how we mis-read the dust cloud that became our system.
    How would they answer that question?
  14. Mar 28, 2018 #13
    It certainly could be possible since a recent observation was made of a much larger object passing through the solar system,
    which without much doubt could only have had an extrasolar origin,
Share this great discussion with others via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?