Moment of inertia (experiment)

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on an experiment to determine the moment of inertia of a rotating object using a pulley system with a ball bearing mechanism. The original poster (OP) faces challenges due to the object rotating easily with minimal torque, raising concerns about accurately measuring angular acceleration and potential errors in the setup. Participants suggest clarifying the experimental procedure, including what physical quantities are being measured and how, as well as addressing systematic errors like friction. The OP is encouraged to provide more detailed descriptions and images of the apparatus to facilitate better assistance. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the need for a clear experimental framework to achieve accurate results.
  • #51
VVS2000 said:
Ok I will try putting up a diagram
Please do.
 
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  • #52
VVS2000 said:
But it's here when I realized that my angular acceleration could be affected by this ball bearing system and my value might be less.
Less than what? There is a torque on the disk that depends on both its momentum of inertia and the torque applied by the bearing. What did you get for the ratio of the torque to the angular acceleration?
 
  • #53
sophiecentaur said:
Ahh those were the days; not a computer in sight.
You were the computer!
 
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  • #54
Mister T said:
You were the computer!
Yep. We did the sums on paper but the kids I taught used their calculators. Also, a bar graph, using lengths of tape, five ticks long, gave a v/t graph. Plus the area underneath was the distance traveled (= the total length of tape)
 
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  • #55
jbriggs444 said:
The slipperier the ball bearings are, the less they intrude. The stickier the glue is, the more that it intrudes. You want a wheel that rotates freely at the slightest touch.

Ball bearings good.
Glue bad.

Teflon good
Steel bad

Molasses bad
Motor oil good

Bronze bushings good
Ball bearings better
Again so sry. For a moment I understood what you said. But let me just explain my present dilemma.
Let's say you're walking on a road and you want to calculate some physical quantity given that you're walking on a road. Now obviously due to friction you won't get the accurate result so you do something to reduce the friction. Now what if in the process of reducing the friction you make the road itself very very soft, almost like ice for example. This is actually how I see the influence of ball bearings.
Plz correct me if there's a mistake
 
  • #56
When you walk on the road friction is needed to provide the forward acceleration. If you remove friction, you will not be able to propel yourself forward. For example, if you put on roller blades (they got ball bearings) the soles of your feet are decoupled from the road surface and you will not be able to move forward the way you normally do when you walk. However you will be able to walk normally on roller blades if you inject Gorilla
-Glue into the ball bearings and wait a few minutes for it to set. Do not try this at home unless you want to ruin a perfectly good pair of roller blades.
VVS2000 said:
Now what if in the process of reducing the friction you make the road itself very very soft, almost like ice for example.
Ice hard
Marshmallows soft.
 
  • #57
VVS2000 said:
Again so sry. For a moment I understood what you said. But let me just explain my present dilemma.
Let's say you're walking on a road and you want to calculate some physical quantity given that you're walking on a road.
Let us make that specific. You want to calculate your mass. You want to do this by having someone pull on you with a string and measure how long it takes to move a certain distance. So you strap on a pair of tennis shoes and stand on the road while your friend pulls on you with a 10 Newton force.

You don't budge. Your feet stay firmly planted on the road.

You swap out for a pair of roller skates. Your friend pulls and you move on down the road.

Which choice of footwear provided a useful measurement?
 
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  • #58
VVS2000 said:
Ok I will try putting up a diagram

Please do.
 
  • #59
VVS2000 said:
Ok I will try putting up a diagram
And a proposed method with the input variables and the output variable. What do you actually want to do? This is all so up in the air that I cannot see how any 'learning' can emerge from the process.
 
  • #60
jbriggs444 said:
Let us make that specific. You want to calculate your mass. You want to do this by having someone pull on you with a string and measure how long it takes to move a certain distance. So you strap on a pair of tennis shoes and stand on the road while your friend pulls on you with a 10 Newton force.

You don't budge. Your feet stay firmly planted on the road.

You swap out for a pair of roller skates. Your friend pulls and you move on down the road.

Which choice of footwear provided a useful measurement?
Ok, fine but what if the whole road is made extremely smooth so as to slip?
Can you explain whether the influence of ball bearings is that of the roller blades or like a super smooth road? Or are both cases similar?
 
  • #61
sophiecentaur said:
And a proposed method with the input variables and the output variable. What do you actually want to do? This is all so up in the air that I cannot see how any 'learning' can emerge from the process.
So sorry, I will.
 
  • #62
VVS2000 said:
Ok, fine but what if the whole road is made extremely smooth so as to slip?
Can you explain whether the influence of ball bearings is that of the roller blades or like a super smooth road? Or are both cases similar?
Similar.

Roller skates on ice, tennis shoes on ice or roller skates on asphalt all work to minimize friction and allow you to move freely over the road surface. This reduces the contribution of the frictional force to:
$$F_{\text{friction}}+F_{\text{string}}=ma$$
If you are trying to determine m, based on the known ##F_\text{string}## and the measured a then the unknown ##F_\text{friction}## impairs your ability to do so. You want to reduce the unknown frictional force as much as possible.
 
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  • #63
jbriggs444 said:
Similar.

Roller skates on ice, tennis shoes on ice or roller skates on asphalt all work to minimize friction and allow you to move freely over the road surface. This reduces the contribution of the frictional force to:
$$F_{\text{friction}}+F_{\text{string}}=ma$$
If you are trying to determine m, based on the known ##F_\text{string}## and the measured a then the unknown ##F_\text{friction}## impairs your ability to do so. You want to reduce the unknown frictional force as much as possible.
Ok, now I got it...!
 
  • #64
I have the following suggestions for your experiment:
First, I would make the two pulleys to be identically the same (this greatly simplifies the analysis because you won't to deal with two unknown moments of inertia). I have made a sketch of your experiment.
atwd1.png

In the following I calculate the moment of inertia of the pulley in terms of the time it takes for the mass to descend from height h to the floor using the technique of Lagrangian dynamics. Lagrangian dynamics is usually introduced in the upper division physics sequence but you can (and should) do a force analysis to verify my result. The Lagrangian of a system is,$$\mathcal {L}=K.E. - P.E.$$where K.E. is the kinetic energy and P.E. is the potential energy. For this system,$$K.E.= I \dot{\theta}^2+\frac{1}{2}m \dot{y}^2\\
P.E.=mg(h-y)$$where ##\theta## is the angle of rotation of the pulley. The arc length for a circle is ##s=R\theta## and with a moment of thought you can see that ##\theta = \frac{y}{R}##. The Lagrangian is therefore,$$ \mathcal {L}=I\frac{ \dot{y}^2}{R^2}+\frac{1}{2}m \dot{y}^2-(h-y)mg$$I suggest you google Lagrangian mechanics to understand the following sequence of calculations,$$
\frac{\partial {\mathcal{L}}}{\partial{\dot{y}}}=2\dot{y}(\frac{I}{R^2} + \frac{1}{2}m)\\
\frac {d(\frac{\partial {\mathcal{L}}}{\partial{\dot{y}}})}{dt}=2\ddot{y}(\frac{I}{R^2} + \frac{1}{2}m)\\
\frac{\partial {\mathcal{L}}}{\partial{y}}=mg\\
2\ddot{y}(\frac{I}{R^2} + \frac{1}{2}m)=mg\\
$$We now integrate the acceleration twice assuming the initial velocity is zero, the initial displacement is zero, and the final position is h.$$
\ddot{y}=\frac{1}{2}(\frac{mg}{\frac{I}{R^2}+ \frac{1}{2}m})\\
\dot{y}-\dot{y_0}=\frac{1}{2}(\frac{mgt}{\frac{I}{R^2}+ \frac{1}{2}m})\\
\dot{y_0}=0\\
y-y_0=\frac{1}{4}(\frac{mgt^2}{\frac{I}{R^2}+ \frac{1}{2}m})\\
y_0=0\\
I=\frac{mR^2}{2h}(\frac{gt^2}{2}-h)

$$
 
  • #65
jbriggs444 said:
Roller skates on ice, tennis shoes on ice or roller skates on asphalt all work to minimize friction and allow you to move freely over the road surface.
It should be at least noted that Ice skates and roller states will produce a slightly different result for the same total mass because of the rotational inertia of the wheels. It may be slightly less obvious that the same thing is true for a ball bearing vs a sleeve bearing for essentially the same reason.
Also if the frictional force is independent of the speed can it not be eliminated using several different accelerating rates and creating the appropriate intercept?
A good drawing would be a friendly addition... @VVS2000?.
 
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  • #66
Fred Wright said:
I have the following suggestions for your experiment:
First, I would make the two pulleys to be identically the same (this greatly simplifies the analysis because you won't to deal with two unknown moments of inertia). I have made a sketch of your experiment.
View attachment 258601
In the following I calculate the moment of inertia of the pulley in terms of the time it takes for the mass to descend from height h to the floor using the technique of Lagrangian dynamics. Lagrangian dynamics is usually introduced in the upper division physics sequence but you can (and should) do a force analysis to verify my result. The Lagrangian of a system is,$$\mathcal {L}=K.E. - P.E.$$where K.E. is the kinetic energy and P.E. is the potential energy. For this system,$$K.E.= I \dot{\theta}^2+\frac{1}{2}m \dot{y}^2\\
P.E.=mg(h-y)$$where ##\theta## is the angle of rotation of the pulley. The arc length for a circle is ##s=R\theta## and with a moment of thought you can see that ##\theta = \frac{y}{R}##. The Lagrangian is therefore,$$ \mathcal {L}=I\frac{ \dot{y}^2}{R^2}+\frac{1}{2}m \dot{y}^2-(h-y)mg$$I suggest you google Lagrangian mechanics to understand the following sequence of calculations,$$
\frac{\partial {\mathcal{L}}}{\partial{\dot{y}}}=2\dot{y}(\frac{I}{R^2} + \frac{1}{2}m)\\
\frac {d(\frac{\partial {\mathcal{L}}}{\partial{\dot{y}}})}{dt}=2\ddot{y}(\frac{I}{R^2} + \frac{1}{2}m)\\
\frac{\partial {\mathcal{L}}}{\partial{y}}=mg\\
2\ddot{y}(\frac{I}{R^2} + \frac{1}{2}m)=mg\\
$$We now integrate the acceleration twice assuming the initial velocity is zero, the initial displacement is zero, and the final position is h.$$
\ddot{y}=\frac{1}{2}(\frac{mg}{\frac{I}{R^2}+ \frac{1}{2}m})\\
\dot{y}-\dot{y_0}=\frac{1}{2}(\frac{mgt}{\frac{I}{R^2}+ \frac{1}{2}m})\\
\dot{y_0}=0\\
y-y_0=\frac{1}{4}(\frac{mgt^2}{\frac{I}{R^2}+ \frac{1}{2}m})\\
y_0=0\\
I=\frac{mR^2}{2h}(\frac{gt^2}{2}-h)

$$
That's precisely what I gave some days ago. Note that the rotational kinetic energy is ##I/2 \dot{\theta}^2## though.
 
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  • #67
vanhees71 said:
That's precisely what I gave some days ago. Note that the rotational kinetic energy is ##I/2 \dot{\theta}^2## though.
After I posted I suddenly realized that demanding the alteration of the apparatus to have identical pulleys might not sit well with the lab instructor. The solution, however, can accommodate two pulleys by making the substitution, $$I=\frac{mR^2}{2h}(\frac{gt^2}{2}-h)\\
I\to \frac{1}{2}(I_1+I_2)\\
\frac{1}{2}(I_1+I_2)=\frac{mR^2}{2h}(\frac{gt^2}{2}-h)$$
To solve for the two moments of inertia, run the experiment with two different masses. You now have two equations with two unknowns.
 
  • #68
vanhees71 said:
That's precisely what I gave some days ago. Note that the rotational kinetic energy is ##I/2 \dot{\theta}^2## though.
Thanks for the proof
 
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