(Moonbounce) Can I use moon as a satellite for IOT?

[moonbounce]

I am thinking to use the moon as a satellite for my IOT gateway.

Let's say I have a gateway that collects data from my sensor nodes but it has no internet access. Using moonbounce(EME), it will send the small data (few bytes) to the moon then reflect it to a ground station with internet connection.

Do you think this is possible? What are my challenges on doing this? I am planning to use ham radio frequencies I see online.

 

[berkeman]

Welcome to the PF.

If you don't have local Internet access or WiFi, the next choice would be satellite phone connections. But IoT is generally centered on low-cost solutions, and satellite phone access is not cheap.

Also, keep in mind that commercial use of HAM radio bands is not allowed.

Probably it would be better for you to set up your own WiFi Hot Spots and network them via commercial radio links.

EDIT/ADD -- I forgot to mention that using Moon Bounce requires a fair bit of transmit power. The Moon is a lot farther away than our own satellites...

EDIT/ADD#2 -- And the bounce off the Moon does not include any re-transmission gain like a satellite does.

 

[anorlunda]

I think there are many IOT devices that do that today using the cell phone network. But you need more than hardware, you need the cooperation of the cell provider.

 

[moonbounce]

I am really interested on doing a moonbounce approach. This is more cool and seems to offer certain level of challenge. Lol.

I am going to register to a ham regulation office in our country in the next few days to start.

 

[berkeman]

As I said, keep in mind that commercial use of HAM radio is not allowed. It is called "Amateur Radio" for a reason.

That said, if you want to experiment with Moon Bounce radio just for your own interest, HAM radio is a good way to get started.

 

[anorlunda]

I am really interested on doing a moonbounce approach. This is more cool and seems to offer certain level of challenge. Lol.

I am going to register to a ham regulation office in our country in the next few days to start.

If you really want to do that, I suggest that a laser is better than a HAM radio. Apollo 11 conveniently left a mirror on the Moon for use by us Earth-bound beings.

 

[moonbounce]

Yup. I will be working as a amateur ham radio :)

For the laser concept, i think it is ok for laser ranging for moon distance. Correct me if I am wrong but the mirror is for retroreflective applications. Can I bounce the laser on a different location? Waaaahh. Another ambitious goal. Haha.

 

[Vanadium 50]

a laser is better

Can you use a laser any time exacept the new moon?

 

[davenn]

I am thinking to use the moon as a satellite for my IOT gateway.

and what are you going to do when the moon isn't above your horizon?
Also there will be almost 2 weeks per month when comms isn't available ... approx. 1 week either side of new moon

I wonder if you understand why ?

and of course the moon isn't always in your sky
so you will need some sort of store and forward for the data. so I hope you are not looking for
24/7 real time data collection ?

I am really interested on doing a moonbounce approach. This is more cool and seems to offer certain level of challenge. Lol.

a major level of challenge that I don't think you understand. I have a number of fellow amateur radio friends that are into moonbounce
very high transmit power levels ... minimum of 1kW, very large antenna arrays

The closest to me of those guys is just getting his 432MHz system up and running. A 500W linear amplifier into an 8 x 15 element
phased Yagi array that will give around 20dBi gain, giving well in excess of 10 kW EIRP ( effective radiated power)
Setting up a moonbounce station requires significant knowledge of all things RF

Do you have mains power available at the site for powering the transmitter and it's amplifier ?
is there room there for a large box to hold there TX gear. Room on the site for a large antenna array ?

I am going to register to a ham regulation office in our country in the next few days to start.

Getting your full grade amateur radio license is your first step, which is likely to be essential for allowing high power transmissions
You won't be allowed to do it on a basic entry level amateur licence
Be ready to study for your exams etc

How remote is this location that you want to get your sensor data from ?
is there absolutely no cellular phone connection, even with a reasonable external antenna on the phone ?

Moonbounce is cool, but it is a very serious and expensive propositionI don't mean to sound negative, but you do need to understand what you are in for, when there may be easier and cheaper waysDave

 

[berkeman]

very high transmit power levels ... minimum of 1kW, very large antenna arrays

A kilowatt thermostat on the wall, with an antenna array on the roof. Sounds like a good IoT approach to me...

 

[moonbounce]

Wow. Thanks for the discouragements davenn. Lol

I am happy with your comments. It gets more interesting now. I am trying to search online as much as I can but moonbounce projects seems to be not so popular. I guess I need to read more. And more...

Aside from the fundamentals and first principles of space and rf, can you recommend something for me to start?

I know this is not the best IoT approach. I just want to try something as a side personal project that seens to be a good discussion in the community

 

[berkeman]

So which would be your main motivation in learning right now... Experimenting with Moon Bounce communication (high-power HAM radio), bouncing anything off the Moon (moderate power laser pulses and detection at the right times of the lunar cycle), or IoT device networking effectively? Each has different paths to pursue...

 

[moonbounce]

I am familiar with IoT stuff. It is my day job

I am more into studying how I can make a moon bounce setup. I will not do it remotely. Just a setup here at home once I got my license

 

[GrahamN-UK]

I am thinking to use the moon as a satellite for my IOT gateway.

Do you think this is possible? What are my challenges on doing this? I am planning to use ham radio frequencies I see online.

It's possible. I'm not convinced it's particularly practical.

As davenn pointed out you'll be operating at the limits of what is possible in amateur radio. Whilst only a few amateurs get to build one moonbounce station you'll need two (for the IOT gateway and the Internet-connected ground station). Communication will only be possible when the moon is above the horizon at both sites. The big antenna arrays davenn mentioned will need to be able to track the moon.

If you're drawn to amateur moonbounce operation then, by all means, do that but as a way of communicating with the exclusive band of moonbounce-capable amateurs. The Wikipedia moonbounce page has a reasonable amount of amateur radio content:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth–Moon–Earth_communication

If you want to stick with amateur bands (assuming you're happy with the prohibition of commercial use or encryption) there are a variety of HF low-speed data modes. A couple of low power HF stations will be much simpler and cheaper to set up than moonbounce. Here's an introductory article:
https://www.essexham.co.uk/how-to-get-started-with-data-modes

Moving away from amateur radio operation, if you have cellphone signal at your IOT node point there are various cellphone board add-ons for the single board computers often used with IOT devices.

Something I've been seeing around the Internet recently is LoRa, a Long Range lowish-speed system for IOT applications, capable of 10 km+ per hop. It's one implementation of a low-power wide-area-network. These systems could be easier to set up than a moonbounce system and don't use a cellphone network.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPWAN
https://www.electronicdesign.com/industrial-automation/choices-abound-long-range-wireless-iot

 

[davenn]

Wow. Thanks for the discouragements davenn. Lol

just wanted to point out the difficulties and challenges that you would face. ... just being open and out there so you are aware

. I am trying to search online as much as I can but moonbounce projects seems to be not so popular. I guess I need to read more. And more...

well because it is a small number of guys that get into this ... it's quite expensive with lots of equip needed, specially the antenna system

and as @GrahamN-UK pointed out... unlike most stations that require only one big system ... you will have to build two of them

Whilst only a few amateurs get to build one moonbounce station you'll need two (for the IOT gateway and the Internet-connected ground station).

I will not do it remotely.

so what happened to the "remote" reason for doing this ?

I know this is not the best IoT approach.

Honestly, it's not even practical

Just a setup here at home once I got my license

that would be a great start, and it would be awesome if you had another amateur into moonbounce in your area that could mentor you, as you are then more likely to achieve the goal. It's not really a project for a new radio amateur with presumably zero RF knowledge ( you haven't mentioned any?)

Dave
Amateur radio operator split between Australia and New Zealand over the last 40 years

 

[berkeman]

(assuming you're happy with the prohibition of commercial use or encryption)

Excellent point! I'd forgotten about the encryption prohibition for the Amateur bands. That's a deal breaker for any IoT application, since security in communication is extremely important. (Hackers have used early IoT communication that was not very secure to do some very bad things...)