Motion of box on inclined plane connected by spring to a wall

Click For Summary
The discussion centers on the dynamics of a mass connected to a spring on an inclined plane. The initial equations of motion are established, indicating that the acceleration of mass M is influenced by the contact force with mass m. Participants debate the direction of acceleration for both masses in different frames of reference, concluding that m accelerates down the slope relative to M and downwards in the ground frame. The conversation also explores the relationship between the accelerations of M and m, leading to the formulation of equations governing their motion. Ultimately, the discussion emphasizes the importance of considering all forces, including tension and normal forces, in analyzing the system's behavior.
  • #31
@TSny pointed out your error, but I'd like to provide a little more context just because in my experience pulleys are notoriously poorly explained in school.

Although this problem tells us to neglect friction between the string and the pulley, it's more instructive to consider the general case where there is friction (which we will assume to be limiting), and then - if you want - to set ##\mu = 0## afterwards.

Suppose that the section of string in contact with the pulley subtends an angle ##(\pi - 2\alpha) / 2##, and superimpose a co-ordinate system whose ##y##-axis coincides with the axis of symmetry.

1617126695671.png


Now consider a small element at an angle ##\theta## to the ##x##-axis.

1617119110628.png


Balance the forces acting on the element tangential to the surface:$$T \left(\theta + \frac{d\theta}{2} \right) \cos{ \frac{d\theta}{2}} - T \left(\theta - \frac{d\theta}{2} \right) \cos{\frac{d\theta}{2}} - \mu N(\theta) = 0$$Balance the forces on the element normal to the surface:$$N(\theta) - T \left(\theta + \frac{d\theta}{2} \right) \sin{\frac{d\theta}{2}} - T \left(\theta - \frac{d\theta}{2} \right) \sin{\frac{d\theta}{2}} = 0$$You can simplify this by writing ##\cos{\frac{d\theta}{2}} \sim 1 - \frac{d\theta^2}{2}## and ##\sin{\frac{d\theta}{2}} \sim \frac{d\theta}{2}##, and further by noticing that

$$T \left(\theta + \epsilon \right) = T(\theta) + T'(\theta) \epsilon + \mathcal{O}(\epsilon^2)$$If you write out those expansions then you'll obtain that, to first order in ##d\theta##,$$T'(\theta) d\theta = \mu N(\theta) \ \ \ (1)$$and$$N(\theta) = T(\theta) d\theta \ \ \ (2)$$don't be put off by the fact that what I called ##N(\theta)## is actually differential form! You can just combine to get the differential equation$$T'(\theta) = \mu T(\theta)$$and you may be aware that this has a solution ##T(\theta) = T(0)e^{\mu \theta}##; i.e. in the limiting case, the tension increases exponentially around the pulley. [Although the string is not in contact with the pulley at ##\theta = 0##, you can just view ##T(0)## as some constant fixing the solution].

We're not there yet, though, because we want to ultimately work out the force that the pulley exerts on the string - and then by NIII, the force that the string exerts on the pulley. For example, the ##y##-component of the contact force the pulley exerts on the string may be computed via an integral$$
\begin{align*}

\int_{\alpha}^{\pi - \alpha} dF_y = \int_{\alpha}^{\pi - \alpha}\left[ N(\theta) \sin{\theta} - \mu N(\theta) \cos{\theta} \right] &= \int_{\alpha}^{\pi - \alpha} (\sin{\theta} - \mu \cos{\theta}) T(\theta) d\theta \\ \\

&= T(0) \cos{\alpha} \left[ e^{\mu(\pi - \alpha)} + e^{\mu \alpha} \right]

\end{align*}$$But ##T(0)e^{\mu(\pi - \alpha)} = T(\pi - \alpha)## and ##T(0)e^{\mu \alpha} = T(\alpha)##, so you can see the y-component of force that the pulley exerts on the string is$$F_y = T(\alpha) \cos{\alpha} + T(\pi - \alpha) \cos{\alpha}$$and thus by NIII, the string exerts $$\tilde{F}_y = -T(\alpha) \cos{\alpha} - T(\pi - \alpha) \cos{\alpha}$$on the pulley, or in other words, exactly equivalent to if the pulley were acted upon by two forces ##T(\alpha)## and ##T(\pi - \alpha)## in the direction of the string, even though the tension forces don't actually act on the pulley (they only act on neighbouring bits of string!). You can [and should!] do a similar calculation for the ##x##-direction.

Another, perhaps more intuitive, way to think about it is to consider the string in contact with the pulley as part of the "pulley+string-in-contact-with-pulley system". Then, the force this system due to the string is just that exerted by the external axial tension on the bit of the string in contact with the pulley.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes songoku, TSny and Lnewqban
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
TSny said:
Be sure to take into account all of the forces acting on M. Anything in contact with M can exert a force on M. If you consider the pulley as part of M, then note that the string is in contact with M. (I think @Lnewqban hinted at this in post #16.)
Damn! I had that originally then mislaid the scrap of paper. Thanks for picking it up.
 
  • Like
Likes songoku and etotheipi
  • #33
haruspex said:
Damn! I had that originally then mislaid the scrap of paper.
I knew you were aware of the string's force on M as evidenced by your replies in similar threads.:smile:
 
  • Like
Likes etotheipi
  • #34
Well, it's a well known fact that @haruspex never makes mistakes... :wink:
 
  • Like
Likes Delta2 and TSny
  • #35
etotheipi said:
Well, it's a well known fact that @haruspex never makes mistakes... :wink:
"What never?"
"No never!"
"What never??"
"Well, hardly ever!"
(HMS Pinafore)
I know what happened... I had meantime been on another thread with a block and a pulley on a moving wedge, but in that case the string was tied to the wall.
 
  • Haha
Likes etotheipi
  • #36
etotheipi said:
@TSny pointed out your error, but I'd like to provide a little more context just because in my experience pulleys are notoriously poorly explained in school.

Although this problem tells us to neglect friction between the string and the pulley, it's more instructive to consider the general case where there is friction (which we will assume to be limiting), and then - if you want - to set ##\mu = 0## afterwards.

Suppose that the section of string in contact with the pulley subtends an angle ##(\pi - 2\alpha) / 2##, and superimpose a co-ordinate system whose ##y##-axis coincides with the axis of symmetry.

View attachment 280600

Now consider a small element at an angle ##\theta## to the ##x##-axis.

View attachment 280585

Balance the forces acting on the element tangential to the surface:$$T \left(\theta + \frac{d\theta}{2} \right) \cos{ \frac{d\theta}{2}} - T \left(\theta - \frac{d\theta}{2} \right) \cos{\frac{d\theta}{2}} - \mu N(\theta) = 0$$Balance the forces on the element normal to the surface:$$N(\theta) - T \left(\theta + \frac{d\theta}{2} \right) \sin{\frac{d\theta}{2}} - T \left(\theta - \frac{d\theta}{2} \right) \sin{\frac{d\theta}{2}} = 0$$You can simplify this by writing ##\cos{\frac{d\theta}{2}} \sim 1 - \frac{d\theta^2}{2}## and ##\sin{\frac{d\theta}{2}} \sim \frac{d\theta}{2}##, and further by noticing that

$$T \left(\theta + \epsilon \right) = T(\theta) + T'(\theta) \epsilon + \mathcal{O}(\epsilon^2)$$If you write out those expansions then you'll obtain that, to first order in ##d\theta##,$$T'(\theta) d\theta = \mu N(\theta) \ \ \ (1)$$and$$N(\theta) = T(\theta) d\theta \ \ \ (2)$$don't be put off by the fact that what I called ##N(\theta)## is actually differential form! You can just combine to get the differential equation$$T'(\theta) = \mu T(\theta)$$and you may be aware that this has a solution ##T(\theta) = T(0)e^{\mu \theta}##; i.e. in the limiting case, the tension increases exponentially around the pulley. [Although the string is not in contact with the pulley at ##\theta = 0##, you can just view ##T(0)## as some constant fixing the solution].

We're not there yet, though, because we want to ultimately work out the force that the pulley exerts on the string - and then by NIII, the force that the string exerts on the pulley. For example, the ##y##-component of the contact force the pulley exerts on the string may be computed via an integral$$
\begin{align*}

\int_{\alpha}^{\pi - \alpha} dF_y = \int_{\alpha}^{\pi - \alpha}\left[ N(\theta) \sin{\theta} - \mu N(\theta) \cos{\theta} \right] &= \int_{\alpha}^{\pi - \alpha} (\sin{\theta} - \mu \cos{\theta}) T(\theta) d\theta \\ \\

&= T(0) \cos{\alpha} \left[ e^{\mu(\pi - \alpha)} + e^{\mu \alpha} \right]

\end{align*}$$But ##T(0)e^{\mu(\pi - \alpha)} = T(\pi - \alpha)## and ##T(0)e^{\mu \alpha} = T(\alpha)##, so you can see the y-component of force that the pulley exerts on the string is$$F_y = T(\alpha) \cos{\alpha} + T(\pi - \alpha) \cos{\alpha}$$and thus by NIII, the string exerts $$\tilde{F}_y = -T(\alpha) \cos{\alpha} - T(\pi - \alpha) \cos{\alpha}$$on the pulley, or in other words, exactly equivalent to if the pulley were acted upon by two forces ##T(\alpha)## and ##T(\pi - \alpha)## in the direction of the string, even though the tension forces don't actually act on the pulley (they only act on neighbouring bits of string!). You can [and should!] do a similar calculation for the ##x##-direction.

Another, perhaps more intuitive, way to think about it is to consider the string in contact with the pulley as part of the "pulley+string-in-contact-with-pulley system". Then, the force this system due to the string is just that exerted by the external axial tension on the bit of the string in contact with the pulley.
I really appreciate you type all this explanation to me but my brain cell just can't process this knowledge. Reading this so many times for these past 2-3 days and I still can't understand. Maybe I will leave this for now before my already few brain cells get permanent damage. I am sorry, and thank you very much for you effort

TSny said:
Be sure to take into account all of the forces acting on M. Anything in contact with M can exert a force on M. If you consider the pulley as part of M, then note that the string is in contact with M. (I think @Lnewqban hinted at this in post #16.)
Is it correct that the horizontal component of tension acting on M is T sin α so the equation will be:
ΣF = M.a
N sin α + T sin α = M.a

Thanks
 
  • #37
songoku said:
Is it correct that the horizontal component of tension acting on M is T sin α
The same magnitude tension acts on the pulley at two different angles.
What is the horizontal component of each?
What is the net horizontal force?
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #38
haruspex said:
The same magnitude tension acts on the pulley at two different angles.
What is the horizontal component of each?
What is the net horizontal force?
Net horizontal force of tension on M is T - T cos α ?

So equation for M is:
ΣF = M.a
N sin α + T - T cos α = M.a ?

Thanks
 
  • #39
songoku said:
Net horizontal force of tension on M is T - T cos α ?

So equation for M is:
ΣF = M.a
N sin α + T - T cos α = M.a ?

Thanks
Yes.
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #40
For question (d)

Change in GPE - change in KE = strain energy

mg x0 sin α - 1/2 . m . (2a x0) = 1/2 . k . (x0)2

Then solve for x0

Is that correct?

Thanks
 
  • #41
songoku said:
For question (d)

Change in GPE - change in KE = strain energy

mg x0 sin α - 1/2 . m . (2a x0) = 1/2 . k . (x0)2

Then solve for x0

Is that correct?

Thanks
Change in KE between what two states of motion?
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #42
haruspex said:
Change in KE between what two states of motion?
Change in KE of ##m## before it moves and after it moves down the plane as far as ##x_0##
 
  • #43
songoku said:
Change in KE of ##m## before it moves and after it moves down the plane as far as ##x_0##
And what is its KE at x0?
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #44
haruspex said:
And what is its KE at x0?
Ah I used wrong acceleration for ##m##. I have to use ##a_m = \sqrt {(a_x)^2+(a_y)^2}## then use ##v^2 = u^2 + 2a_mx_0 ## to find speed of ##m## at ##x_0## and putting ##u=0##. Am I correct?
 
  • #45
songoku said:
Ah I used wrong acceleration for ##m##.
It compresses a spring. Acceleration will not be constant.
Note how x0 is defined:
"after moving a distance xo towards the wall, M will stop"
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #46
haruspex said:
It compresses a spring. Acceleration will not be constant.
Note how x0 is defined:
"after moving a distance xo towards the wall, M will stop"
Initially the system is at rest so no KE and taking the position where ##m## will stop moving after going down the slope as far as ##x_0## as ground level, ##m## will have initial GPE with height equal to ##x_0 \sin \alpha##

After moving a distance ##x_0##, ##M## and ##m## will stop and the spring will be compressed so at this state there is no KE so the loss in GPE of ##m## will be equal to strain energy stored by the spring.

$$m~g~x_0 \sin \alpha=\frac 1 2 k~(x_0)^2$$

Is this correct?

If yes, I have another question regarding acceleration of oscillation. I learn that the acceleration of simple harmonic motion will be maximum at maximum displacement but in this case it looks like the acceleration is zero when the spring is compressed by ##x_0## so it seems that the acceleration is minimum at maximum displacement of the oscillation. What am I missing?

Thanks
 
  • #47
songoku said:
Is this correct
Yes.
songoku said:
it looks like the acceleration is zero when the spring is compressed by x0
It will be zero velocity but max acceleration.
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #48
haruspex said:
It will be zero velocity but max acceleration.
So the acceleration of ##m## and ##M## will be maximum at ##x_0##? It means that when while ##M## is moving to the right, its acceleration increases but its velocity decreases? And also the initial acceleration of ##M## is to the right at the instant it start to moves but when the spring has compression, the acceleration of ##M## changes direction to the left?

Thanks
 
  • #49
songoku said:
So the acceleration of ##m## and ##M## will be maximum at ##x_0##? It means that when while ##M## is moving to the right, its acceleration increases but its velocity decreases? And also the initial acceleration of ##M## is to the right at the instant it start to moves but when the spring has compression, the acceleration of ##M## changes direction to the left?

Thanks
The equilibrium point (for M) of the system will be somewhere between the initial position and the displacement x0. Until M reaches that point it will accelerate to the right, with decreasing magnitude. At the equilibrium point acceleration will be zero. Thereafter, acceleration is to the left.
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #50
For (e), I tried to use conservation of energy again but got stuck

Let:
##d## = distance move by ##M## from initial position to reach equilibrium point
##v_m## = speed of ##m## after moving down the slope as far as ##d##
##v_M## = speed of ##M## after moving a horizontal distance ##d## to the right
Ground level is the position of ##m## after moving down a distance ##d## down the slope

I compare the initial condition where the system is at rest and when ##M## reaches equilibrium point

$$mg~d \sin \alpha = \frac1 2 m (v_m)^2 + \frac 1 2 M (v_M)^2 + \frac 1 2 k d^2$$

##v_m## and ##v_M## will be the maximum speed of the oscillation so ##v_m = v_M = \omega A## where ##A## is the amplitude of oscillation and ##A=x_0-d##

So:
$$mg~d \sin \alpha = \frac1 2 m (v_m)^2 + \frac 1 2 M (v_M)^2 + \frac 1 2 k d^2$$
$$mg~d \sin \alpha=\frac 1 2 m (\omega (x_0-d))^2 + \frac 1 2 M (\omega (x_0-d))^2 + \frac 1 2 kd^2$$

How to get rid ##\omega## from the equation? Thanks
 
  • #51
songoku said:
For (e), I tried to use conservation of energy again but got stuck
You should start by thinking about what defines the equilibrium point. What would happen if you brought the system to rest at that point and released it?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #52
haruspex said:
You should start by thinking about what defines the equilibrium point. What would happen if you brought the system tonrest at that point and released it?
I guess ##M## will move to the left due to restoring force of spring and ##m## will move up the slope, starting with maximum velocity and minimum acceleration (zero)
 
  • #53
songoku said:
I guess M will move
Then it was not at equilibrium.
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #54
haruspex said:
Then it was not at equilibrium.
By equilibrium point, do you mean equilibrium point of simple harmonic motion? What I know about equilibrium point of simple harmonic motion is it is the mid point of the oscillating motion where the velocity will be maximum and acceleration will be zero.

That's why I thought if I brought the system to rest at equilibrium point and then released it, it woukd execute such motion

Thanks
 
  • #55
songoku said:
By equilibrium point, do you mean equilibrium point of simple harmonic motion? What I know about equilibrium point of simple harmonic motion is it is the mid point of the oscillating motion where the velocity will be maximum and acceleration will be zero.

That's why I thought if I brought the system to rest at equilibrium point and then released it, it woukd execute such motion

Thanks
An equilibrium state of a system is a stable state. I.e a state in which it will remain unless perturbed.
Generally speaking, that can include dynamic equilibrium, such as a wheel rolling. But here it means a state in which there is no motion.
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #56
haruspex said:
An equilibrium state of a system is a stable state. I.e a state in which it will remain unless perturbed.
Generally speaking, that can include dynamic equilibrium, such as a wheel rolling. But here it means a state in which there is no motion.
I think I imagine the motion of the system wrongly.

The equation of motion for ##M## is:
$$\Sigma F = M.a$$
$$N \sin \alpha +T-T \cos \alpha-kx=M.a$$

Since acceleration is not directly proportional to displacement, the system does not perform simple harmonic motion.

But the question states that ##M## will oscillate so it will move continuously left and right, just not in simple harmonic motion? If so, will there be a point which there is no motion? Since there is no friction, I think it will be continuously in motion.

Or by equilibrium point you mean the position where the speed is zero (hence no motion)? Won't it be the same as ##x_0##?

Thanks
 
  • #57
songoku said:
Since acceleration is not directly proportional to displacement
How do you know it isn"t? Thar equation has T and N in it, which might also be proportional to x.
songoku said:
it will move continuously left and right, just not in simple harmonic motion?
It does not need to be SHM for this part of the question, but probably is.
songoku said:
by equilibrium point you mean the position where the speed is zero
No, it is the position it would stay in if you were to stop it there and then let go.
For a pendulum, it would be hanging vertically.
For a mass hanging from a spring, it would be when the force in the spring is mg.
In SHM it is the mid point of the oscillation.
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #58
haruspex said:
No, it is the position it would stay in if you were to stop it there and then let go.
For a pendulum, it would be hanging vertically.
For a mass hanging from a spring, it would be when the force in the spring is mg.
In SHM it is the mid point of the oscillation.
In this case, it will be the mid point of oscillation? If I bring the system to stop at that point and then let go, the system will stay at rest, maybe because the resultant force is zero (##N \sin \alpha + T-T \cos \alpha=kx##). Am I correct?

Thanks
 
  • #59
songoku said:
In this case, it will be the mid point of oscillation?
Maybe, but you don't need to assume that.
songoku said:
because the resultant force is zero (##N \sin \alpha + T-T \cos \alpha=kx##).
Yes.
 
  • Like
Likes songoku
  • #60
haruspex said:
Yes.
If I use ##\Sigma F = 0## to find equilibrium position:

$$N \sin \alpha + T - T \cos \alpha=kx$$

I don't know what to do with ##N## and ##T## and I think I can not use ##N## and ##T## that I found in part (a) because both ##N## and ##T## depend on acceleration and initial acceleration when the system moves for the first time will not be same as acceleration at equilibrium point.

Or maybe there is other way to find the equilibrium position?

Thanks
 

Similar threads

Replies
4
Views
582
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
Replies
46
Views
3K
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
497
Replies
1
Views
998
  • · Replies 97 ·
4
Replies
97
Views
6K