News Navy serviceman accused of trying to sell classified military documents

[Mech_Engineer]

Seriously, what's with the rash of leaking classified military documents??

A Navy intelligence specialist at the Joint Special Operations Command has been accused of taking top secret documents from military networks and offering to sell them to an investigator posing as a foreign agent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/06/AR2010120607109.html

 

[Vanadium 50]

Seriously, what's with the rash of leaking classified military documents??

If you're going to sell them, you have to move quickly before Wikileaks does. Just like Wal-Mart, Wikileaks is putting the mom and pop operations out of business.

 

[rootX]

If you're going to sell them, you have to move quickly before Wikileaks does. Just like Wal-Mart, Wikileaks is putting the mom and pop operations out of business.

 

[WhoWee]

Seriously, what's with the rash of leaking classified military documents??

No fear of consequences?

 

[Mech_Engineer]

No fear of consequences?

That's what I'm thinking as well...

 

[Gokul43201]

No other possibilities come to mind?

After all, the WikiLeaks incidents are still under investigation, but Manning has already been charged with crimes that could put him away for some 50-odd years, if convicted.

 

[russ_watters]

In the past, much more serious and certain punishment was possible. I agree that that was likely a factor in his decision.

 

[Gokul43201]

I agree that that was likely a factor in his decision.

Do you think that was also a likely factor in Manning's decision?

 

[Evo]

Do you think that was also a likely factor in Manning's decision?

Manning probably was banking on wikileaks' promise of absolute annonymity and that he would not be indentified. It wasn't wikileaks that turned him in.

 

[nismaratwork]

Manning probably was bankling on wikileaks promise of absolute annonymity and that he would not be indentified. It wasn't wikileaks that turned him in.

We live in a period of social division and lessening mature communication... this is a very powerful tool for a disaffected individual to use if they can. I won't judge this in terms of morality, just law, but in my experience if you give a few hundred thousand people access to their country's lightly soiled laundry (secret and no-foreign) I wouldn't be shocked when, for one reason or another, this occurs.

The sale of information is a kind of betrayal, and is therefore subject to final analysis with the concept of prime motivators: Money, Ideology, Coercion, Ego. The concept of prison or death is only relevant BEFORE a betrayal occurs, because after that the traitor can only:

1.) Turn himself in and stop
2.) Continue and hope

 

[_Tully]

I am in the military (for a few more days ), and I have to say some of the stuff they tout as 'top secret' and 'classified' all over the news, especially in regards to this 'WikiLeaks' thing, is actually either 'confidential' or 'secret'.

ie: almost everyone in the military has access to it, at least people I know (infantryman). I'm not condoning anything of course, just putting that out there. Of course this is very bad thing, but the news is not helping the situation at all by sensationalizing things.I guess my point is that they need to concentrate on the issues at hand, not try to create stories out of each individual person caught breaking opsec.

 

[MATLABdude]

I am in the military (for a few more days ), and I have to say some of the stuff they tout as 'top secret' and 'classified' all over the news, especially in regards to this 'WikiLeaks' thing, is actually either 'confidential' or 'secret'.

ie: almost everyone in the military has access to it, at least people I know (infantryman). I'm not condoning anything of course, just putting that out there. Of course this is very bad thing, but the news is not helping the situation at all by sensationalizing things.

I guess my point is that they need to concentrate on the issues at hand, not try to create stories out of each individual person caught breaking opsec.

My understanding (as a non-American) is that a lot of stuff gets classified / assigned secret status. "Better safe than sorry" is probably the operational philosophy (even if it's harvested from the public domain!)

Colbert had Richard Clarke on a while ago, in regards to the growing "Intelligence Industrial Complex" (starts around 2:30 in), which currently sits at around 100,000 people across 30 agencies and chock full of those contractors you seem so intent on outsourcing everything to:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-co...owing-intelligence-community---richard-clarke

For us Canadians, it's at:
http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-colbert-report/headlines/the-colbert-report---august-2010/clip338060#clip338060

 

[Mathnomalous]

This is very interesting. I wonder how the FBI found out about this Petty Officer; did this guy post online or something similar? I think the "safest" way to sell sensitive information is to go to a foreign embassy and convincing them you have sensitive info, at the risk of someone there being a double-agent or just turning you in. Actually, the "safest" way would be a foreign government contacting you first and then turning you.

As a side note, I find it outrageous that the going-rate for US sensitive information is a paltry $3,500! If you are going to do it for money, go at least $10k; was this guy nursing a cocaine habit or something?

 

[russ_watters]

Do you think that was also a likely factor in Manning's decision?

Yes. I think the lack of fear of punishment plays a significant role in these cases. If these guys put any thought into their crime before committing it, they may have had this thought:

'If I get caught leaving the room with this flash drive full of classified documents and I don't get a good lawyer and have a sympathetic jury, I may go to jail for a while.'

But they probably didn't have this thought:

'If I get caught leaving the room with this flash drive full of classified documents, they'll probably shoot me tomorrow.'

The second has a significantly higher deterrent value than the first. Once upon a time, the second was a reality, but it isn't today. I'll repeat my rephrain: society does not take security seriously anymore.

 

[russ_watters]

Manning probably was banking on wikileaks' promise of absolute annonymity and that he would not be indentified. It wasn't wikileaks that turned him in.

Of course, but that doesn't (obviously) completely eliminate the risk of getting caught. So he had to have at least weighed the odds of getting caught against the odds of/severity of punishment, didn't he?

That said, I suspect his defense will offer the "stupid kid" defense, but we'll see if it has any traction.

 

[russ_watters]

This is very interesting. I wonder how the FBI found out about this Petty Officer; did this guy post online or something similar?

Yep.

 

[nismaratwork]

Of course, but that doesn't (obviously) completely eliminate the risk of getting caught. So he had to have at least weighed the odds of getting caught against the odds of/severity of punishment, didn't he?

That said, I suspect his defense will offer the "stupid kid" defense, but we'll see if it has any traction.

Given the systematic fashion in which he committed his crime, and the fact that he's a private in the the military... I'm guessing they won't even TRY that defense. The best they can do is beg for mercy, and try to cut a deal so that Manning sees the sun before he's an old man.

 

[Gokul43201]

Once upon a time, the second was a reality, but it isn't today. I'll repeat my rephrain: society does not take security seriously anymore.

When do you think this change occurred?

Also, does this argument reflect your own personal position on what is the appropriate punishment for stealing classified documents (i.e., execution without trial)?

 

[_Tully]

Here are some examples of cases involving classified documents/espionage:

http://court-martial.com/ucmj-and-espionage/ For those who don't know, the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) is the second set of laws that all military personal are punishable under, on top of the standard American laws. Not only that but we as serviceman sign away our constitutional rights when we enlist (I am not complaining, we knew this when we did it), so punishment can be swift and severe at times.Here is some information on the military court system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court-martial

 

[Gokul43201]

Here are some examples of cases involving classified documents/espionage:

http://court-martial.com/ucmj-and-espionage/

Thanks for the link! (Only skimmed through it so far, but) That's just the kind of thing I was looking for.

 

[_Tully]

Thanks for the link! (Only skimmed through it so far, but) That's just the kind of thing I was looking for.

No problem!

Here is article 106a of the UCMJ:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl106a.htm

These people will definitely be charged under many more articles than just that one of course, but that is one that deals directly with documents/espionage.

The articles can be found here as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justice

(not in full, just the names I believe).

 

[nismaratwork]

Lets be clear, if Manning had released names of non-diplomatic covered CIA agents in the field, he'd be shot. What he's done is traitorous, but it's not exactly giving away the nuclear codes either. As Tully has pointed out, the military has plenty of options, and it's not going to be fun for Manning.

There is also one other element... Manning didn't sell this to an enemy state. If this had been a cash deal with Iran or North Korea, even if the result is the same the intent isn't. I can see that, and the fact that this was bound to happen with our horrendous security, makes this something less than a worst-case shooting offense I think.

 

[MATLABdude]

No fear of consequences?

That's what I'm thinking as well...

In the past, much more serious and certain punishment was possible. I agree that that was likely a factor in his decision.

That's still only 2 out of however many hundreds of thousands of people have access to this pretty low-level material. No matter how severe the personal penalties may be (execution, life imprisonment, national disgrace), there'll be people who still do it for MICE:
Money
Ideology
Coercion / Compromise
Ego / Extortion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_spying

Harsh penalties might dissuade guys like this serviceman who were willing to do it for relative chump change (John Walker at least got a few hundred thousand over the course of his 'career'), but I'd bet that Bradley Manning wouldn't have batted an eye:

I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country.

It wouldn't exactly work against an organization like Wikileaks, but the other reason to avoid executing spies is purely expedient: you get to swap your captured spies for their captured spies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Russian_spy_ring#Prisoners_held_by_Russia_involved_in_the_exchange

(Although maybe this goes towards the whole reduced-penalties thing).

 

[MATLABdude]

Lets be clear, if Manning had released names of non-diplomatic covered CIA agents in the field, he'd be shot. What he's done is traitorous, but it's not exactly giving away the nuclear codes either. As Tully has pointed out, the military has plenty of options, and it's not going to be fun for Manning.

There is also one other element... Manning didn't sell this to an enemy state. If this had been a cash deal with Iran or North Korea, even if the result is the same the intent isn't. I can see that, and the fact that this was bound to happen with our horrendous security, makes this something less than a worst-case shooting offense I think.

Now what happens if they (or someone else) begin ponying up money for tips, like your local TV station and breaking news footage? I doubt that they'd get a whole lot more than their appeal to ideology, but it sure would've been appealing to the navy guy in question.

On the other hand, they'd probably be overwhelmed by ever Tom, Klaus, and Mata (and tin-foiler, besides) claiming to have evidence of malfeasance or conspiracy.

 

[NobodySpecial]

Nasa just admitted to leaking a bunch of classified data by dumping hard drives containing the data in a public dumpster. http://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY11/IG-11-009.pdf

I'm assuming the managers responsible will be facing prison time or at least a Swedish arrest warrant and some calls for the head of Nasa to be assassinated, by some of our more excitable politicians.

 

[Proton Soup]

Yes. I think the lack of fear of punishment plays a significant role in these cases. If these guys put any thought into their crime before committing it, they may have had this thought:

'If I get caught leaving the room with this flash drive full of classified documents and I don't get a good lawyer and have a sympathetic jury, I may go to jail for a while.'

But they probably didn't have this thought:

'If I get caught leaving the room with this flash drive full of classified documents, they'll probably shoot me tomorrow.'

The second has a significantly higher deterrent value than the first. Once upon a time, the second was a reality, but it isn't today. I'll repeat my rephrain: society does not take security seriously anymore.

you think people were more serious about keeping a lid on information before 9/11 ? because i remember that being one of the key problems cited, a lack of sharing. if so, you've got to consider how much it's going to gum up the works when you start putting people before firing squads.

if you're serious about this, you'll need to actually spend the money on physical security. Manning should never have been able to walk out with documents that were readable with any off-the-shelf technology. and if it's not worth investing in appropriate security, then it's probably not worth shooting anyone over.

 

[nismaratwork]

Now what happens if they (or someone else) begin ponying up money for tips, like your local TV station and breaking news footage? I doubt that they'd get a whole lot more than their appeal to ideology, but it sure would've been appealing to the navy guy in question.

On the other hand, they'd probably be overwhelmed by ever Tom, Klaus, and Mata (and tin-foiler, besides) claiming to have evidence of malfeasance or conspiracy.

First, let me just say that it's a pleasure to see someone so familiar with MICE and how it truly is global.

OK, to the money, if you're receiving a tip or token payment I think I'd have to agree that the motive is still ideology... and ego. Remember that for Manning, once he gave a shred of that information to Assange, he fell into the C in MICE... he was compromised and could be coerced. As it happens the little bastard didn't need to be coerced, but he also didn't need to be paid. If Wikileaks became a serious financial entity I think it would be treated as a kind of independent espionage service. In fact, that's probably how we should deal with them now... not by panicking or lashing out, but recognizing that motive aside we have a new player in the game:

That player is... not just the internet... it's the number of people around the world with access and knowledge. There was a time when a Pfc. Manning simply could NOT have moved that kind of information so quickly... in that sense I come to a final point for Russ...

Do we really have worse security or is it a matter of not keeping up with the times? I don't think the emphasis on security has changed, but now the tools are so lacking that the asymmetry in this war has us in the shoes of the Lilliputian. We need a national policy that reaches from password and other basic security skills in schools, up to reworking our "cyber"security.

 

[MATLABdude]

Remember that for Manning, once he gave a shred of that information to Assange, he fell into the C in MICE...

I hadn't heard about the compromise angle (I thought you meant the fact that he was gay, but he apparent wasn't telling and nobody asked), but the speculation from Adrian Lamo (the hacker that outted him) is that it was a mix of ideology and ego, hence my quoting of Nathan Hale (different ideology but still the same idea--'information wants to be free' would've been too cliche):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100726/us_yblog_upshot/22-year-old-army-officer-bradley-manning-at-center-of-wikileaks-firestorm

Lamo doesn't think Manning had the expertise / access to do it on his own. According to Manning's Wikipedia entry, he has delusions of grandeur. Wikileaks (as far as I know) hasn't corroborated Manning as the source of the leaks. Could his confession (well after the Iraq / Afghan papers and apache footage) have been just a big fish tale?

 

[WhoWee]

Nasa just admitted to leaking a bunch of classified data by dumping hard drives containing the data in a public dumpster. http://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY11/IG-11-009.pdf

I'm assuming the managers responsible will be facing prison time or at least a Swedish arrest warrant and some calls for the head of Nasa to be assassinated, by some of our more excitable politicians.

Death by dumpster seems a bit harsh. However, the person(s) should at minimum lose their jobs and any insurance benefits. They should not be eligible for unemployment benefits and their pensions should be used to pay against any losses or damages - IMO.

 

[WhoWee]

No problem!

Here is article 106a of the UCMJ:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl106a.htm

From your link, I found this:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/gangs.htm


"Gang Activity in the U.S. Military"
"According to a recently released FBI report, Gang-related activity in the US military is increasing and poses a threat to law enforcement officials and national security.

The report, Gang Activity in the U.S. Armed Forces Increasing, dated January 12, states that members of nearly every major street gang have been identified on both domestic and international military installations. Members of nearly every major street gang, including the Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Gangster Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenos, Surenos, Vice Lords, and various white supremacist groups, have been documented on military installations. Although most prevalent in the Army, the Army Reserves, and the National Guard, gang activity is pervasive throughout all branches of the military and across most ranks, but is most common among the junior enlisted ranks, according to the report.
"

 

[NobodySpecial]

Members of nearly every major street gang, including the Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Gangster Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenos, Surenos, Vice Lords, and various white supremacist groups,

Could be a good system, simply replace 'regiments' with 'gangs', 'colors' with 'colors', and set them fighting the enemy.
The only overall difference is they will have better weapons, lower administrative overhead, and slightly less inter-service hatred and rivalry than currently exists.

 

[_Tully]

From your link, I found this:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/gangs.htm


"Gang Activity in the U.S. Military"
"According to a recently released FBI report, Gang-related activity in the US military is increasing and poses a threat to law enforcement officials and national security.

The report, Gang Activity in the U.S. Armed Forces Increasing, dated January 12, states that members of nearly every major street gang have been identified on both domestic and international military installations. Members of nearly every major street gang, including the Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Gangster Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenos, Surenos, Vice Lords, and various white supremacist groups, have been documented on military installations. Although most prevalent in the Army, the Army Reserves, and the National Guard, gang activity is pervasive throughout all branches of the military and across most ranks, but is most common among the junior enlisted ranks, according to the report.
"

Well yes, the military is a cross section of America. Of course there are gang members. 'Gang activity' being 'pervasive' on the other hand, I would question. I have never seen anything that would make it seem common at all, and I've lived in the most grim part of Camp Lejeune for four years.

I have seen brutal violence (stabbings, beatings, etc), drug sale/use, etc. All varieties of illegal activities, but nothing would suggest that these events where connected to a greater organisation. Perhaps their criteria is simply, 'if a gang member/former gang member commits a crime, it is gang activity'?

 

[WhoWee]

Well yes, the military is a cross section of America. Of course there are gang members. 'Gang activity' being 'pervasive' on the other hand, I would question. I have never seen anything that would make it seem common at all, and I've lived in the most grim part of Camp Lejeune for four years.

I have seen brutal violence (stabbings, beatings, etc), drug sale/use, etc. All varieties of illegal activities, but nothing would suggest that these events where connected to a greater organisation. Perhaps their criteria is simply, 'if a gang member/former gang member commits a crime, it is gang activity'?

It would demonstrate a lack of discipline and disregard of military rules - never a good thing and quite on-point with the thread.

 

[_Tully]

It would demonstrate a lack of discipline and disregard of military rules - never a good thing and quite on-point with the thread.

The military (Marine Corps Infantry is my only experience) is far beyond anything you can imagine. We are violent warriors who go into combat zones with little to nothing for months at a time, watch our friends die, retaliate with full force, return home to horrible living conditions and complete lack of respect from anyone in our command, forced to do insanely degrading things, and are put into living areas with hundreds of other men in the same situation.

We are HIGHLY disciplined, but we are still fighters, still young men. Not everyone engages in these activities, but if one of my brothers was to engage an agressor and it escalates into a fist fight, I would not ridicule him. The things he carries with him everyday would be mind blowing to the average person, often before his 19th birthday. A breakdown in discipline do to emotions is human. We are humans, not machines. These situations are nothing like the ones being discussed here, as the men I am talking about are patriots who would sooner slit their own throat than speak against their brothers.

This applies to drug use as well.

Sorry for the rant, but these are two very very different things.

EDIT: Also, this was written from my phone so pardon any ridiculous mistakes, haha.

 

[WhoWee]

The military (Marine Corps Infantry is my only experience) is far beyond anything you can imagine. We are violent warriors who go into combat zones with little to nothing for months at a time, watch our friends die, retaliate with full force, return home to horrible living conditions and complete lack of respect from anyone in our command, forced to do insanely degrading things, and are put into living areas with hundreds of other men in the same situation.

We are HIGHLY disciplined, but we are still fighters, still young men. Not everyone engages in these activities, but if one of my brothers was to engage an agressor and it escalates into a fist fight, I would not ridicule him. The things he carries with him everyday would be mind blowing to the average person, often before his 19th birthday. A breakdown in discipline do to emotions is human. We are humans, not machines. These situations are nothing like the ones being discussed here, as the men I am talking about are patriots who would sooner slit their own throat than speak against their brothers.

This applies to drug use as well.

Sorry for the rant, but these are two very very different things.

EDIT: Also, this was written from my phone so pardon any ridiculous mistakes, haha.

I understand the level that you run at - the breakdown isn't the fighting, competition, and humanity - it's the drug sales comment - never acceptable.

 

[_Tully]

I agree, and my post came across way harsher than I meant it to, I'm sorry for that. Also the events (besides fighting) I mentioned are not common, just things I've seen over the years.

EDIT: I would especially like to retract the idiotic comment I made about the military being 'beyond anything you can imagine'. That was very insulting and I'm embarrased that I even said it. Sorry man.

 

[WhoWee]

I agree, and my post came across way harsher than I meant it to, I'm sorry for that. Also the events (besides fighting) I mentioned are not common, just things I've seen over the years.

I'll venture a guess that anyone as involved with his "brothers" as you've described - would most likely never engage in un-patriotic activities (like the Wikileaks theft or the Fort Hood shootings) - my guess is the loner that doesn't fit in or joined for the wrong reasons is the one most likely to go bad (yes - I agree that smacks of profiling).

 

[_Tully]

I'll venture a guess that anyone as involved with his "brothers" as you've described - would most likely never engage in un-patriotic activities (like the Wikileaks theft or the Fort Hood shootings) - my guess is the loner that doesn't fit in or joined for the wrong reasons is the one most likely to go bad (yes - I agree that smacks of profiling).

I agree, you are right. I went off on some pent-up (unneeded) rant in my post that didn't move the discussion forward. Out of thousands of people there will always be a few that will do things like this, unfortunatly.

 

[MATLABdude]

This is somewhat tangential, but gang members (and, although it's not mentioned militia / white supremacist types) going into the military for the express purpose of military training is probably more moral panic than anything. I'm told there was similar panic about the (then-newly) integrated armed forces producing legions of combat-veteran Black Panthers (or the likes) during Vietnam, but a cursory search didn't turn up anything (perhaps some of the older forum members will weigh in?)

Every so often, you read about guys who were given the choice of going to jail, or joining the army (don't know if that's acceptable these days)--I'd like to think that at least some of them ended up turning their lives around, instead of just becoming more dangerous criminals. Same deal with kids who were in (or around) gangs or 'militias'.

 

[Proton Soup]

This is somewhat tangential, but gang members (and, although it's not mentioned militia / white supremacist types) going into the military for the express purpose of military training is probably more moral panic than anything. I'm told there was similar panic about the (then-newly) integrated armed forces producing legions of combat-veteran Black Panthers (or the likes) during Vietnam, but a cursory search didn't turn up anything (perhaps some of the older forum members will weigh in?)

Every so often, you read about guys who were given the choice of going to jail, or joining the army (don't know if that's acceptable these days)--I'd like to think that at least some of them ended up turning their lives around, instead of just becoming more dangerous criminals. Same deal with kids who were in (or around) gangs or 'militias'.

well, if you want to expand that, we also grant citizenship to foreign nationals in exchange for military service. so if you want to bring up issues of allegiance regarding sensitive info...