Need desperate help on fluid dynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around an experiment involving fluid dynamics, specifically the time it takes for water to drain from a bottle through a slot. Participants explore the relationship between the time taken for the water level to drop and the area of the slot, as well as the mathematical modeling of the flow rate and water height over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Mike presents data showing an inverse relationship between the time for the water level to reach the slot and the area of the slot, expressed as T=0.0169/A.
  • Some participants suggest that the problem may involve differential equations and reference Bernoulli's law as a potential framework for understanding the flow dynamics.
  • One participant notes that the data fits a parabolic equation for water height over time, prompting questions about the relationship between the height and time.
  • Another participant introduces Darcy's law, discussing the volume flux and hydraulic conductivity, while cautioning about its applicability in turbulent flow conditions.
  • Mike expresses confusion about deriving a formula for instantaneous flow rate and seeks clarification on how to manipulate existing equations.
  • Participants discuss the influence of various factors, such as slot area, fluid density, and viscosity, on fluid velocity and flow rate.
  • There is a mention of a potential contradiction regarding the relationship between fluid velocity and density, which leads to further clarification requests from Mike.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to derive the necessary formulas or the applicability of different laws. Multiple competing views and methods are presented, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their understanding of viscosity, pressure gradients, and the specific dynamics of fluid flow, which may affect their ability to fully address the problem.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students or individuals studying fluid dynamics, particularly those engaged in experimental work or seeking to understand the mathematical modeling of fluid flow in practical scenarios.

  • #91
gtabmx said:
yes, but that formula oversimplifies the problem since it ignores the fact that there is no input so the flux rate ot the hole drops as volume drops, and volume drop rate is not consatnt and relies of the past flux rates and how much water was previously lost.

Er.. what? I don't understand. Could you elaborate?
 
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  • #92
SOLVED! I will explain when I get home. Thanks everyone!
 
  • #93
vanesch said:
If you use Bernoulli's law in this case, we simply have:

v^2/2 + h g = constant
(the density of the fluid drops out).
If we are at the surface, v = 0, and h = d, so constant = g d
If we are at the hole, h = 0 and hence v = sqrt(2 d g)

So the velocity of the fluid that squirts out of a hole at depth d from the surface of the fluid, equals v = sqrt(2 d g)

This is independent of the area of the hole or even the density of the fluid.

However, the fluid flux will be equal to this velocity times the area of the hole A:
phi = v.A = A sqrt(2 d g).

Now, in a time dt, a fluid flux phi will correspond to a volume dV = phi.dt of water that has escaped. This will then lower the surface of the water with an amount - d d (silly notation, meaning that depth d has diminished by d d). If the section of your bottle equals S, we obtain that when a volume dV has been taken away, we have that d d . S = - dV

So: d d. S = - dV = - phi.dt = - A.sqrt(2 d g).dt

which gives you a differential equation for the function d(t):

(hum, I did a bit too much here, you should work this out yourself...)


I almost gave the solution in my quoted post (actually I did, and then I quickly erased it for it is against the policy of PF). Given all the work and the solution, I think it is fair now to go to the final solution.

Now that we got this far, once we have the differential equation:

d d. S = - A. sqrt(2 d g).dt

with:
d the fluid level (in meters, say) above the hole, S the cross section of the bottle (horizontal area in m^2), A the cross section of the hole (also m^2), g the gravitational acceleration (9.81 m/s^2), we can write this as:

d d / sqrt(d) = - A/S sqrt(2 g) dt

and integrate, which gives us:

sqrt(d) + cte = - A/S sqrt(g/2) t

at t = 0, we have d = d0 (the initial fluid level), so cte = - sqrt(d0)

sqrt(d) = sqrt(d0) - A/S sqrt(g/2) t

Or:

d(t) = (sqrt(d0) - A/S sqrt(g/2) t)^2

which gives you the evolution of the fluid level above the hole d(t) as a function of t...

It has the form of a parabola, and I hope I didn't make any silly mistake.
 

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