Neutron Star Matter & Planet X: What Could Be Lurking Closer?

[errorist]

There are no neutron stars within 1000s of light years that we know of but there could be chunks of one much closer. The speculation of a planet X in our solar system has been written about many times and some think the new found planetoid Sedna may be that object.However, a much smaller object like a chunk of neutron star material orbiting our sun may be overlooked and would cause the same effects that doomsdayers talk about. So, new objects are being found weekly and such small objects like neutron star material could be overlooked.How big of a chunk of this material would equal the mass of the Earth?

 

[Chronos]

The nearest known neutron star, AFAIK, is RX J185635-3754 located 200 light years away in the constellation Corona Australis. It was found by the Hubble telescope about 5 years ago. Unlike most neutron stars, it is viewable in the visible light spectrum. You cannot acquire a chunk of a neutron star, or a white dwarf for that matter. It is, and can only remain in a condensed matter state under intense gravitational pressure. If you attempted to mine a chunk and ferry it away, it would basically explode.

 

[errorist]

How small of a volume would it have to be before it exploded?

 

[ohwilleke]

You cannot acquire a chunk of a neutron star, or a white dwarf for that matter. It is, and can only remain in a condensed matter state under intense gravitational pressure.

In other word, once you take it would of a neutron star, it would cease to be neutron star matter with those characteristics, because it ceased to be in the conditions of a neutron star.

One could imagine creating those conditions in a lab on a small scale, but it would be an immense effort.

 

[errorist]

So what would you have to do to compress 10 million tons of matter to the volume of one sugar cube? Also, how small would this volume of matter be before it exploded? It sounds like there has to be a point in which it would explode?

 

[Nereid]

How small of a volume would it have to be before it exploded?

In the case of neutron star matter, about the size of the nucleus of uranium ... and even that would probably disintigrate ("explode") within microseconds (or less). As a wild guess, I'd say the only chunks that would have any kind of stability (say, ~>1 second), would comprise ~60 neutrons, or ~4.

So what would you have to do to compress 10 million tons of matter to the volume of one sugar cube?

Drop it onto a neutron star

 

[errorist]

So let's say a sphere of this material 1 meter in circumference exists. How long would it last before it explodes if it will at all??

 

[Labguy]

So let's say a sphere of this material 1 meter in circumference exists. How long would it last before it explodes if it will at all??

It would depend on where you store your sphere. IF the pressure were great enough, it could remain in the initial state. If it were suddenly exposed to the vacuum of space, I think that the time to explosion would have to measured in atoseconds or less (Planck time?)

But, to have a pressure "great enough", it would have to reside in a larger mass of the same material or even greater density. Therefore, it would be indistinguishable from the surrounding material so you couldn't actually see or "measure" your sphere anymore. A paradox.

 

[errorist]

Some people think it would not even explode at all because it is a new undiscovered element!

 

[meteor]

The nearest known neutron star, AFAIK, is RX J185635-3754 located 200 light years away

I went to arxiv to investigate if there's some nearer neutron star, and found this paper in which is suggested that RX J185635-3754 is not a neutron star, but a new class of object called P-star
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0401339

 

[Chronos]

Some people think it would not even explode at all because it is a new undiscovered element!

You would need new physics to explain that. To condense matter to the state that exists in a neutron star, you must overcome the neutron degeneracy pressure [for white dwarfs, it is the electron degeneracy pressure]. The minimum amount of matter required to generate a gravitational field sufficiently powerful to reach the neutron degeneracy pressure is about 1.4 solar masses. The minimum mass required to produce a white dwarf is about .67 solar masses. Anything less than .67 solar mass does not have enough gravity to self collapse into a condensed matter state. In other words, the smallest stable chunk of neutron star matter that can exist is 1.4 solar masses. It may be theoretically possible to compress a smaller quantity of matter to these states using external force, but, it would not be stable. Even if you crushed a small amount of matter down to a black hole, it would rapidly radiate mass away and explode. Degenerate matter also radiates intensely and would go poof as well.

 

[Mk]

Some people think it would not even explode at all because it is a new undiscovered element!

Maybe an incorrect assumption? Neutronium, and hyperionium aren't elements because they end in "nium."

 

[Chronos]

Proton, neutron, electron numbers would be helpful. Can't invent new 'elements' without an atomic structure. Otherwise, you need new physics.

 

[Gara]

I'd like to point out diamonds.

Once was coal, under heat and pressure it turns into diamonds.

REMOVE the pressure and it doesn't turn back into coal.

It may be the same with this, it may not.

It's about the same as bringing a container of gas up from the bottom of the deepest sea. Once on the surface the container would just explode because the container is still highly pressurized inside, but now outside, is normal sea level pressure.

So on the one hand, removing part of the neutron star may yield neutron chunks where the dencity remains the same.

Or once away from the pressure of it's gravity field, might turn into a huge neutron soup puddle.

 

[kirovman]

Depends how big the repulsive forces are. In the big neutron star, the gravitational force overcomes all the repulsive forces.

But what repulsive forces do we have? Very close range strong force is repulsive. And all these neutrons have Pauli Exclusion Repulsion, I would have thought? Any more forces involved?
So I would assume, below a certain mass that this material could not hold itself together. That is why neutron stars only form under high mass, extreme conditions.

 

[errorist]

Gara,
Very interesting analogy to say the least! Here is one huge diamond that stays together even in the vacuum of space!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3492919.stm

 

[Nereid]

It's certainly an interesting idea Gara.

The difficulty with it is, as Chronos pointed out indirectly, it would very likely require new physics. Why? because to be consistent with today's physics, a chunk of neutron star would indeed 'explode' (IOW, it isn't stable in low pressure environments). To give a counter analogy to your diamond ... there are many crystalline forms of ice which exist in high pressure environments at 10C, 20C, ... but none are stable at the pressure on the surface of the Earth (this is fortunate ... I believe Kurt Vonnegut wrote a depressing scifi novel based on the your diamond idea, applied to ice ... called Ice-Nine?). Or, at low temperatures and pressures, the only stable form of ice is amorphous, so when recently Jewitt and Luu discovered crystalline ice on Sedna, it implies that at least parts of Sedna's surface is relatively new.

 

[Gara]

*grabs a hard hat and pickaxe*

*goes to mine a sun for diamond*

Don't worry. I'll go when it's night time.

Great find there!

And yes, you're right. Some are unstable, Nereid. I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

 

[errorist]

Perhaps,this is a new element never found before and perhaps it exists on Earth?

 

[Nereid]

How would you go about searching for it errorist?

 

[errorist]

Perhaps,
Searching in areas with a high gravity field??
http://www.csr.utexas.edu/grace/gallery/animations/world_gravity/

 

[Entropy]

*goes to mine a sun for diamond*

Actually you'd have a better chance of mining diamonds on Jupiter or Saturn. Seeing how the carbon on the sun would be in the form of a gaseous plasma, however in a gas giant carbon would collect in a solid form but still be under heavy pressure and high temperatures to where it could be formed into diamonds. I actually saw a show about this.

Yeah, I know I'm a smartass.

Anyways. If it where possible for a form of neutron star matter to exist under normal circumstances then wouldn't we find it laying around somewhere? After all there is a lot of matter that originated in supernovae that makes up our solar system.

Also it is unlikely that "chunks" of neutron matter just break off of neutron stars. Even though it is possible for matter to escape from a neutron star's surface it would require huge amounts of energy to lift it off the surface and into outer space. Huge amounts of energy you aren't likely to find. Lifting just a teaspoon of neutron matter would require more energy than any nuclear bomb, asteriod or even "planet sized" collision could ever supply. That one teaspoon weights several hundred tons and is in a gravitational field a trillion times that of Earth's. To give you an idea of the energy involved. It would be the equivalent of throwing Mt. Everest over a million miles into space (out of Earth's orbit) one trillion times, all at once!

 

[errorist]

It is possible for two neutron stars to collide. This would be huge amounts of energy.

 

[Nereid]

Perhaps,
Searching in areas with a high gravity field??
http://www.csr.utexas.edu/grace/gallery/animations/world_gravity/

Are you guessing, or is there some physics behind this?

 

[errorist]

Not guessing at all. Take the time the universe has been here. Many collisions have taken place within that time frame. It is possible that many such collisions have taken place and wayward chunks of this stuff have made it here to Earth. The gravity probe does show irregularities in the gravity of the Earth.Who knows what causes them to be more prevalent in one area than another.

 

[chroot]

errorist:

1) Sedna is not a neutron star.

2) There is no Planet X. People who say there is a Planet X are idiots, or liars, or both.

3) Neutron stars are not made of any new, undiscovered elements. Neutron stars are made of (guess what?) neutrons. Atoms are essentially pulverized when a star collapses to such a state, and cease to exist as independent atoms.

4) You cannot create a lone "piece" of a neutron star.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

wayward chunks of this stuff

Wayward chunks of neutron stars do not remain in the same state of matter as their parent neutron star for long.

The gravity probe does show irregularities in the gravity of the Earth.Who knows what causes them to be more prevalent in one area than another.

I don't know what "gravity probe" you're talking about, but yes, the Earth is not a perfectly symmetric sphere, so neither is its resultant gravitational field. Gravity varies from point to point all over the planet. This has nothing to do with neutron stars.

You seem to be trying desperately to justify some concept of a neutron star floating around in our solar system, probably in some concerted neutronish effort to scare scientifically illiterate humans. From the sound of it, you didn't make the idea up yourself, but heard it from someone else. That person, whoever s/he may be, is a fool. It's pure fantasy, unsupported by any shred of evidence. It is false. It is crap.

- Warren

 

[errorist]

I agree with you Sedna is not a neutron star but rather a moon sized asteroid perhaps. As for Planet X it is possible for a Sedna sized object or larger to have have an orbit that is an Earth crossing orbit coming from the Kupier belt it may take thousands of years to get here. We have only started to observe such objects. Who knows what we may find in the next thousand years? There is no way I can create a lone piece of neutron star. Correct, But God can.

 

[chroot]

I agree with you Sedna is not a neutron star but rather a moon sized asteroid perhaps.

Sedna is a Kupier belt object, a sort of planetoid. It is not an asteroid.

As for Planet X it is possible for a Sedna sized object or larger to have have an orbit that is an Earth crossing orbit coming from the Kupier belt it may take thousands of years to get here.

How is it possible? Does such a hypothesis make any sense in the modern theory of the solar system's history? If this were actually possible, wouldn't it imply that other oddities, like planets with strongly elliptical orbits, would also exist? Since we have not observed anything which contradicts the modern theory of solar system formation, why should we not accept it as being a sound model?

We have only started to observe such objects.

No, we haven't. We've just recently begun calling them 'Kupier belt objects.' We called the first KBO 'Pluto,' and we found it in 1930. We now know thousands of KBO's, and not one of them has given us any indication that your doomsday scenario is possible.

Who knows what we may find in the next thousand years?

No one does. But that doesn't mean that Earth-crossing Kupier Belt Objects exist, does it?

There is no way I can create a lone piece of neutron star. Correct, But God can.

Oh, so now we're just going to invoke a supernatural power, eh? How does this help your argument? God could make Planet X, right? So Planet X might really exist. Gee, that God fellow can do anything he wants, right? Maybe God made me the King of the Kupier Belt Objects, and gave me a superpower: I can stare at incoming Kupier Belt Objects and explode them with my mind-power. Don't worry about rogue planets or killer neutron stars -- I can defend humanity with my Super Stare Power, because God gave it to me.

Frankly errorist, you're wasting your (and everyone else's) time with this nonsense. You are being hoodwinked by morons that live right here, on the third planet from the Sun.

- Warren

 

[errorist]

"Sedna is a Kupier belt object, a sort of planetoid. It is not an asteroid."

I did say, perhaps.

"How is it possible? Does such a hypothesis make any sense in the modern theory of the solar system's history? If this were actually possible, wouldn't it imply that other oddities, like planets with strongly elliptical orbits, would also exist? Since we have not observed anything which contradicts the modern theory of solar system formation, why should we not accept it as being a sound model?"

Sure Sedna is one of those objects although it is not an Earth crosser.

"No, we haven't. We've just recently begun calling them 'Kupier belt objects.' We called the first KBO 'Pluto,' and we found it in 1930. We now know thousands of KBO's, and not one of them has given us any indication that your doomsday scenario is possible."

Not my senerio. Also, even if it started in the 30s that is still a very short time on the scale of things here.

 

[Janus]

I'm locking this thread, it doesn't seem to be going anywhere worthwhile.