Non Newtonian / Newtonian Fluid interface

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of surface waves at the interface between a shear thickening Newtonian fluid (Oobleck) and water. Participants explore how these waves propagate, reflect, and interact with the non-Newtonian fluid, considering factors such as density differences and boundary conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how surface waves in water will behave at the Newtonian/Non-Newtonian fluid interface and whether applied forces will cause shear thickening in Oobleck.
  • There is a suggestion that reflection of the wave at the interface may occur, but this remains uncertain.
  • One participant notes that Oobleck's higher density than water may affect wave speed and questions the applicability of Snell's law at the interface.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need for actual modeling to derive definitive answers, highlighting the importance of continuous traction at the interface.
  • It is proposed that using a simpler scenario, such as Oobleck and vegetable oil, might clarify the complexities involved.
  • A participant references the dispersive nature of water waves and discusses the influence of gravity and surface tension on wave speed, but expresses uncertainty about its relevance to the current problem.
  • Concerns are raised about the complexity of the system, noting its nonlinear characteristics and the challenges in making straightforward predictions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of waves at the interface, with no consensus reached on the outcomes or the applicability of certain principles like Snell's law. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of wave propagation and interaction at the interface.

Contextual Notes

The discussion acknowledges the complexity of the system, including nonlinear dynamics and the effects of a thin membrane separating the fluids. There are also references to specific boundary conditions and the need for careful consideration of geometry when discussing wave behavior.

Tom79Tom
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Suppose I have a wave tank partially filled with a shear thickening Newtonian fluid (Oobleck), on top of which sits a layer of water (separated by a thin membrane to prevent mixing)

If I propagate a surface wave in the water layer how will it conduct itself at the Newtonian/Non Newtonian Fluid interface and into the Non Newtonian fluid

Will it be an applied force upon the Non Newtonian fluid that causes shear thickening ? Will it cause reflection of the wave at the interface ?

I also notice that Oobleck has a higher density than water- will Snells law also apply and the surface wave will travel slower in the higher density medium
 
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Tom79Tom said:
Suppose I have a wave tank partially filled with a shear thickening Newtonian fluid (Oobleck), on top of which sits a layer of water (separated by a thin membrane to prevent mixing)

If I propagate a surface wave in the water layer how will it conduct itself at the Newtonian/Non Newtonian Fluid interface and into the Non Newtonian fluid

Will it be an applied force upon the Non Newtonian fluid that causes shear thickening ? Will it cause reflection of the wave at the interface ?

I also notice that Oobleck has a higher density than water- will Snells law also apply and the surface wave will travel slower in the higher density medium
In my judgment, you need to do actual modeling of this problem to get a definitive answer. Neglecting surface tension, the boundary condition at the interface must be that the traction must be continuous (i.e., normal- and shear stresses).
 
Tom79Tom said:
Suppose I have a wave tank partially filled with a shear thickening Newtonian fluid (Oobleck), on top of which sits a layer of water (separated by a thin membrane to prevent mixing)

If I propagate a surface wave in the water layer how will it conduct itself at the Newtonian/Non Newtonian Fluid interface and into the Non Newtonian fluid

The thin membrane will cause additional effects; better to consider (for example) oobleck and vegetable oil; the oil is Newtonian and immiscible with oobleck (or a cornstarch solution if you prefer that).

Otherwise, I agree with Chestermiller- the system is too complex (nonlinear, for one) to make 'simple' predictions.
 
Thanks for your replys guys ! I'll ponder if another simpler scenario could answer my query
 
Tom79Tom said:
Suppose I have a wave tank partially filled with a shear thickening Newtonian fluid (Oobleck), on top of which sits a layer of water (separated by a thin membrane to prevent mixing)

If I propagate a surface wave in the water layer how will it conduct itself at the Newtonian/Non Newtonian Fluid interface and into the Non Newtonian fluid

Will it be an applied force upon the Non Newtonian fluid that causes shear thickening ? Will it cause reflection of the wave at the interface ?

I also notice that Oobleck has a higher density than water- will Snells law also apply and the surface wave will travel slower in the higher density medium
For water waves
"In water whose depth is large compared to the wavelength, the wave speed expression contains two terms, one for gravity effects and one for surface tension effects. The wave speed is
Waves-basic-terms_clip_image002_0000.gif

where g is the gravitational field strength, γ is the surface tension, ρ is the density of the water, and λ the wavelength. As this equation makes clear (wave speed depends on wavelength), water is a dispersive medium."
(http://practicalphysics.org/speed-water-waves.html) [I made a couple of obvious typo corrections spotted in the original quote above regarding the quantites in the equation ...]
I don't know if that can help. Perhaps it's not enough.
Tom79Tom said:
I also notice that Oobleck has a higher density than water- will Snells law also apply and the surface wave will travel slower in the higher density medium
Snell's law (of refraction) involves the angles of incidence and refraction. For surface waves (i.e. in 2 dim), you have to be more careful and specify the exact geometry. (Are we talking about surface waves at the same level, with the interface surface between the two media perpendicular? ...)
 

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