Noob question: If you travel as fast as light, time freezes so

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of time as it relates to traveling at the speed of light, particularly focusing on the implications for photons and the perception of time from different frames of reference. Participants explore theoretical aspects of special relativity, the nature of light, and the implications of moving at light speed.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that if one were to travel at the speed of light, time would be "frozen" from that perspective, but question how light can still be observed moving towards us.
  • Others propose that photons experience time differently, suggesting that while they do not age or change, this does not imply that they are "frozen" in time.
  • A participant mentions that the rules governing massless particles like photons differ from those governing massive particles, affecting how we perceive their behavior under gravitational influences.
  • Some argue that the concept of referencing everything by the speed of light is flawed, emphasizing that one cannot reach light speed and thus cannot draw conclusions from such a premise.
  • Another viewpoint suggests that as one approaches light speed, the perception of time and space changes, leading to a "tunnel vision" effect where events appear concentrated in front of the observer.
  • There are claims that all observers will measure light to travel at the same speed regardless of their own speed, challenging the idea of a "light's perspective."
  • Participants discuss the implications of time dilation, noting that each observer perceives the other's clock as running slow depending on their relative motion.
  • Some express that light is not "frozen" in time but rather moves at a constant speed relative to all observers, regardless of their own time dilation effects.
  • Several participants emphasize that no object with mass can reach the speed of light, reiterating the impossibility of discussing scenarios at light speed as nonsensical.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus among participants. While some agree on the fundamental principles of special relativity, others present competing interpretations and challenge the assumptions underlying the discussion of light speed and time perception.

Contextual Notes

Participants express various assumptions about the nature of time and light, and there are unresolved questions regarding the implications of traveling at light speed and the frame of reference of photons. The discussion reflects a range of interpretations and conceptual challenges without definitive resolutions.

  • #31
But we can get to another galaxies. When Universe will be expanding faster and faster, you will cross the event horizon in finite time. In Big Rip scenario, it happens to ALL observers.
 
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  • #32
Dmitry67 said:
But we can get to another galaxies. When Universe will be expanding faster and faster, you will cross the event horizon in finite time. In Big Rip scenario, it happens to ALL observers.
I am not sure if any of these thoughts are connected, or if they follow from my comment.
 
  • #33
DaveC426913 said:
Why do you think this is counter-intuitive? Why would you expect the Moon, which is moving at ~1km/s to move on the same path as light, which is moving at 300,000km/s?

Dave, thanks for your reply, the putting green analogy was very clear. I wasn't thinking of anything being counter-intuitive, it was more of a semantics problem, I guess, which you straightened out. Thanks!
 
  • #34
Because as expansion accelerates because of the Dark Energy, distant galaxy which is not beyond the cosmological horizon now can be behind it in the future.
 
  • #35
Dmitry67 said:
Because as expansion accelerates because of the Dark Energy, distant galaxy which is not beyond the cosmological horizon now can be behind it in the future.

Is your quote feature not working?
 
  • #36
DaveC426913 said:
Is your quote feature not working?

I'm going to guess that Dmitry67 is probably messing with you because he knows you'll correct him each time; he's probably trying to see how long you'll go before you stop. I don't know him/her, but as I said, that's my guess.

As for the initial question concerning 'time freezing', I'd like to add my two cents which is just confirming what has already been similarly stated. Let's say you 'could' travel with the photon, for the sake of making an analogy (CAUTION: I say the following 'very loosely'): try not to think of time as 'freezing' for the photon, instead let's say that it does not really 'apply' anymore, if you will. 'At' the speed of light, the 'rest of the world' will 'freeze' because you are traveling 'at the speed of time'. I am NOT saying that you can travel backwards in time however, because we would start violating the law of entropy. To you, at speed c, traveling a great distance would seem to happen instantaneously.

I now subject my words to the PF guillotine as I press the "Submit Reply" button... :wink:
 
  • #37
rod_worth said:
As for the initial question concerning 'time freezing', I'd like to add my two cents which is just confirming what has already been similarly stated. Let's say you 'could' travel with the photon, for the sake of making an analogy (CAUTION: I say the following 'very loosely'): try not to think of time as 'freezing' for the photon, instead let's say that it does not really 'apply' anymore, if you will. 'At' the speed of light, the 'rest of the world' will 'freeze' because you are traveling 'at the speed of time'. I am NOT saying that you can travel backwards in time however, because we would start violating the law of entropy. To you, at speed c, traveling a great distance would seem to happen instantaneously.

I now subject my words to the PF guillotine as I press the "Submit Reply" button... :wink:

It's like walking on eggshells, in'it? :wink:

What we do here is talk about what happens as you approach arbitrarily close to the limit of c.

As you approach c, the universe will undergo length contraction in your direction of motion. Arbitrarily close to c, the universe will be contracted (along your direction of motion) by a commensurately large amount.

One can see that, in order to reach c, one must find themselves in a universe that is infinitely thin - a plane. Another way of looking at it is that they must, in fact, be at all points (along the direction their travel) at the same time.


And for special bonus points, try calculating the frequency of radiation that you'd be pelted with due to Doppler shift...
 
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  • #38
DaveC426913 said:
And for special bonus points, try calculating the frequency of radiation that you'd be pelted with due to Doppler shift...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the relativistic Doppler effect as v -> c, would be:

f = (lim v->c)f0*sqrt([1+B]/[1-B])

which would be a frequency approaching infinity. I wouldn't be concerned about being 'pelted' by 'frequency' as much as I would the infinite amount of energy associated with it (E=hf).
 
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  • #39
rod_worth said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the relativistic Doppler effect as v -> c, would be:

f = (lim v->c)f0*sqrt([1+B]/[1-B])

which would be a frequency approaching infinity. I wouldn't be concerned about being 'pelted' by 'frequency' as much as I would the infinite amount of energy associated with it (E=hf).

Precisely. :smile:
 
  • #40
DaveC426913 said:
Precisely. :smile:

Yay bonus points! :biggrin:
 
  • #41
a spaceship theoretically could be light (photons) because of the spacetime warpage. I was reading something about that lately. Are they wrong or what?
 
  • #42
filegraphy said:
a spaceship theoretically could be light (photons) because of the spacetime warpage. I was reading something about that lately. Are they wrong or what?

About what? Making a spaceship out of light? Tricky.
 
  • #43
Sorry it was a typo i meant if a spaceship and light had a race light would be beat by the spaceship because of spacetime warpage.
 
  • #44
Even in flat spacetime the light would win.
 
  • #45
Do we know what the engine of light is? I mean what causes it to travel?
 
  • #46
Light does not have or need an "engine". In the context you mean, engines are intended to accelerate a mass relative to something else. They have nothing to do with velocity, or travel.

Photons have velocity. They do not accelerate, or decelerate; once in motion, they tend to stay in motion, and the universe does not resist them.

Apparent deceleration in more-dense media (water vs air vs vacuum) is a product of the interaction of photons with the medias parent particles; there is a time delay as the light interacts with these things (photons are being created and destroyed), which causes an apparent decrease in net observed speeds (time between light energy entering the media and exiting the other side). The photons themselves are always traveling at c.
 
  • #47
Thanks for the reply talk2glenn. I appreciate the response. I do understand the constant nature of light. I was actually wondering if there were an understanding of why light moves? I realize that this may not yet be fully understood. I suspect not, but are there any theories?
 
  • #48
Prairie said:
Thanks for the reply talk2glenn. I appreciate the response. I do understand the constant nature of light. I was actually wondering if there were an understanding of why light moves? I realize that this may not yet be fully understood. I suspect not, but are there any theories?

The more appropriate question is: why does everything else not move at c? c is the "natural" state of things unemcumbered by mass. What is it about mass that slows things down?
 
  • #49
Doh... Thanks DaveC, I think I see. I'll probably be back with other questions.

Edit: Can I assume that the release of energy is an attempt to return to a natural state?
 
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  • #50
Prairie said:
Doh... Thanks DaveC, I think I see. I'll probably be back with other questions.

Edit: Can I assume that the release of energy is an attempt to return to a natural state?
No. Make no such assumption. We are postulating wildly here.
 
  • #51
Sorry, my bad. Are there any readings, or google or forum searches that might help me understand this relationship better? Thanks. I'd finally gotten around to reading some texts on the evolution of stars and my interest in the properties of light is tweaking my curiosity.
 
  • #52
Prairie said:
I was actually wondering if there were an understanding of why light moves? I realize that this may not yet be fully understood. I suspect not, but are there any theories?
Yes, there is a groundbreaking new theory called Maxwell's equations which explains the propagation of light in terms of the behavior of electric and magnetic fields.

Light is very well understood scientifically. Current theories accurately predict all known behaviors of light.
 
  • #53
Fair enough... lol. I don't know how to ask the question really.
 

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