kyleb said:Rather, it seems your are making conscious effort not to get it, as your response ignores not only my explanation of how the lobby is cheering on the death of Palestine though their support of settlement expansion, but my acknowledgment of the pro-Israel pro-peace lobby in the sentenced you truncated off in your quoting of my response.
Because a disinterested inquiry into the subject of Israeli or Jewish influence on US policy that takes one across that docu. video you posted should also have as a reference serious critiques of that video (paper). I have not otherwise defended the aspects of the Dershowitz rebuttal here.kyleb said:...Again, if you have found anything of virtue in Dershiwitz's arguments, I'm interested to know whatever that might be. As it stands I'm left to wonder what motivation you have for defending it, or for having bothered to present it in the first place.
Would that it were, but those backing Israel's ongoing colonization of the West Bank are demonstratedly more interested in land than peace, and are in effect wiping Palestine off the map.BoomBoom said:I have yet to see anything from you with substance that provides any evidence whatsoever of the existence of any "Death to Palestine" lobby.
You make claim that the "pro-Israel, pro-peace" lobby is insignificant with no evidence just as I claimed the "Death to Palestine" is also insignificant.
We all want peace, after all...don't we?
kyleb said:Would that it were, but those backing Israel's ongoing colonization of the West Bank are demonstratedly more interested in land than peace, and are in effect wiping Palestine off the map.
Very good point. I'd missed that the Iranian election was coming up. I don't know if the speech circulated in Iran, nor have any idea if it had any impact there on the 'the illusive Iranian moderate' as Gates calls them. However, if it could the speech could have helped, I'd be fine with Obama saying practically anything wisely calculated to help move that election, including refrains of "the cow jumped over the moon".Gokul43201 said:Bringing this back on topic, but connecting it to an upcoming event ... what effect, if any, do you think Obama's speech might have had on the undecideds voting in Iran's election on Friday? Might it have been just enough to convince a large enough bloc of fence-sitters that there isn't really any dire need for a hardliner anymore?
Recent opinion polls suggest that Mousavi's might be positioned pretty strongly at the moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_presidential_election,_2009#Opinion_polls
(Note: 19/3/1388 in the Iranian calendar = June 9, 2009 in the Gregorian calendar)
Gokul43201 said:Bringing this back on topic, but connecting it to an upcoming event ... what effect, if any, do you think Obama's speech might have had on the undecideds voting in Iran's election on Friday? Might it have been just enough to convince a large enough bloc of fence-sitters that there isn't really any dire need for a hardliner anymore?
Recent opinion polls suggest that Mousavi's might be positioned pretty strongly at the moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_presidential_election,_2009#Opinion_polls
(Note: 19/3/1388 in the Iranian calendar = June 9, 2009 in the Gregorian calendar)
mohd_adam said:If president Obama really want to find solution for the problem of the terrorism , he must help in spreading democracy in the middle east.
You refrained from answering the direct question, what do you mean by the word 'democracy' ?mohd_adam said:What 'democracy' are we talking about?
For example in Egypt, Hosni Mubarak is very sick and he will leave the power soon to his son or to General Omar Solaiman.. In Egypt the people want new government, for example the people want a person like Mohamed ElBaradei the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency..
And he won again, does that mean we are a democratic country now? and by what 'standards' do you qualify a country to be a democratic one or not? Would you be happy if the Muslim Brotherhood leader was elected? (take Hamas for example)what can president Obama do !?
President Obama can order Hosni Mubarak to organize election ( without falsification ) , in year 2005 , Bush ordered Hosni Mubarak to organize election ( without falsification ), this mean President Obama also can do the same, especially Hosni Mubarak now is very weak and very sick..
how can its spreading decrease terrorism?
In case Egypt became a free country , no more torture , no more insult from the police, this will make the youth of Egypt have hope in the future , consequently they will be far from the terrorism.. As we know Ayman Azawahri the strong person in Al qaeda is egyptian , and many members of Al qaeda are egyptian... if we have in Egypt a new government , we can persuade most of those youth to return to egypt for fair trial... the problem is that the police of Hosni Mubarak depend on torture , this police easily can rap the sisters or the wife of the accused to force to him to tell information, that is why most of terrorists prefer to fight until death because they are afraid... I believe that if Egypt became democratic country the terrorism will decrease...
Offer a better alternative.mohd_adam said:Ahmad, about the problem of the terrorism , could you explain to me how we can fight the terrorism..
mohd_adam said:... if we have in Egypt a new government , we can persuade most of those youth to return to egypt for fair trial... I believe that if Egypt became democratic country the terrorism will decrease...
AhmedEzz said:...what 'standards' do you qualify a country to be a democratic one or not? Would you be happy if the Muslim Brotherhood leader was elected?
I agreeI am against torture, but I am also against terrorists. Every country has its own internal politics, and Egypt is no different. Therefore, you can't apply a European or an American 'version' of a country, to Egyptians. We need to develop our own form. This will take time but it is far better than letting chaos into the country. Take Iraq for example and you'll know what I mean.
That's a somewhat sweeping statement. Can you quantify what you mean by "particularly popular"? So far, the only quantified reports I've seen are the recent opinion polls, many of which are controlled by one or other of the main contenders, and few of which are consistent with each other. From news reports that I've heard/read, no one has any good idea of where the numbers lie, but most reporters have been saying that Ahmadinejad has pretty strong support among the rural and older demographic, while Mousavi's strength is in the urban and younger voters. And in the last couple weeks, it seems that Ahmedinejad may have only further disenfranchised this demographic by the internet blockades that have been popping up in convenient places. But then, he is giving away free potatoes to the poor, so that could help some.kyleb said:From what I've seen, Ahmadinejad hasn't been particularly popular in Iran for a while now anyway.
It is relevant, and all the more when someone like Ahmadinejad is the President. For one thing, with virtually all of the media at his disposal, Ahmadinejad has the ability to shape public opinion in a Limbaugh+Murdoch kind of way, and that's a very big deal, especially with Ahmadinejad who is both a skillful orator and an astute politico. And any policy decision (domestic or foreign) is a lot easier to make when there's strong public support for it (even in a theocratic dictatorship). Secondly, having Ahmadinejad as President has not helped in any way to woo foreign investment (other than oil revenues, that is) in Iran, and that keeps the country isolated for longer. Third, his presence does not do much to help shape any kind of peace accord in the ME, it leaves the Israelis continually antsy and his mere presence serves almost to justify aggression against Iran.I don't see how the presidency of Iran is relevant though, it's not like he has any authority over their foreign policy anyway.
Rather just a statement of perception, based onhttp://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1536210,00.html" I've seen over the years. What have you seen to suggest otherwise?Gokul43201 said:That's a somewhat sweeping statement.
That report is consistent with everything I've been hearing on NPR (my primary news source). It says that there has been some erosion of support for Ahmdinejad, but it doesn't say that this is likely to be sufficient to prevent a re-election. Bush, for instance had a below 50% approval rating when he was re-elected. That's why I've been asking for a quantification.kyleb said:Rather just a statement of perception, based onhttp://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1536210,00.html" I've seen over the years.
Most of my information comes from NPR radio, which makes it hard to cite, but I think it is pretty universally accepted that since Ahmadinejad has been in power, there has been a significant clamp down on the somewhat tenuous freedoms that Iran had been permitting till that point.As for your arguments in regard to relevance, I can't say I've seen any evidence to suggest who is the President of Iran makes a notable difference in any of those regards.
Since Ahmadinejad took office, government pressure has increased on Iranians who have actively promoted changes to create a more open society. As part of the crackdown, dozens of university students around the country have been barred from taking classes this year, and a substantial number of professors have been demoted or forced to resign.
A major reformist newspaper, Shargh, was shut down in September and several of its veteran journalists were barred from working. The government has blocked thousands of news Web sites and blogs in an effort to limit the access of Internet users to independent news outlets.
Over the summer, Rahai, the university chancellor, had the office of a reformist student group, the Islamic Association, leveled by a bulldozer.
http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/06/10/the-iranian-circus-cont/The biggest roar of the afternoon was reserved for the main speaker, Zahra Rahnavard, Mr Mousavi’s wife. “You’re here because you don’t want any more dictatorship,” she declared. “You’re here because you hate fanaticism, because you dream of a free Iran, because you dream of a peaceful relationship with the rest of the world.” The candidate himself was nowhere to be seen…
mheslep said:Mousavi's wife brings out the crowds in Iran. Baffles me how she's allowed to say what she does