Uncovering the Mystery of Non-Linear Torque in Muscle-Powered Energy Conversion

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the behavior of torque in a muscle-powered energy conversion system using a DC motor as a dynamo. Participants explore the relationship between torque and speed under various configurations of incandescent light bulbs and investigate the non-linear characteristics observed when short-circuiting the motor. The conversation touches on experimental setups, measurements, and theoretical implications related to electrical resistance and motor performance.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes their experimental setup involving a DC motor and incandescent bulbs to measure torque versus speed, finding a linear relationship under certain conditions.
  • Another participant suggests that the motor may be saturating, affecting the results, and inquires about the specifications of the motor and the short-circuit current.
  • Concerns are raised about the non-linear behavior of incandescent bulbs and how this may relate to the observed torque characteristics when the motor is short-circuited.
  • Participants discuss the implications of Ohm's law in this context, questioning whether the conductors in the motor behave linearly.
  • There is a mention of the method used to measure torque and speed, involving weights and a pulley system to determine terminal speed.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the saturation hypothesis, arguing that the observed torque characteristics do not align with expected behavior if saturation were occurring.
  • One participant notes that the motor's temperature does not significantly increase during operation, which may influence the resistance characteristics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the reasons behind the non-linear torque behavior observed in the experiments. While some suggest motor saturation as a potential explanation, others challenge this idea, leading to an unresolved discussion regarding the underlying mechanisms at play.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully explored the assumptions regarding the motor's characteristics, the impact of temperature on resistance, and the specific configurations of the experimental setup. The relationship between torque, speed, and electrical resistance remains complex and is not fully resolved.

Heros
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Hi, i didnt know where to put this question cos its kind of multitopic, here is why...
I am working on a better way to take mechanical energy from muscles, i made a teste bench for pedalling in very different ways, including traditional(circular) pedalling, the thing is. I am measuring the power of the athletes with a big dc motor(working as dynamo) attached with a lot of possible connections of incandescent car bulbs, and so, i tested diferents speeds and number/setup of light bulbs to produce different "brake" powers.
The thing is that after a lot of experiments to determine the torque vs speed function for every light bulbs setup and i discovered nothing surprising, the torque function is like this Torque=k*speed+RestingFriction being k of course the constant i was looking for.

I made a curve fit and got a very good precision(r^2=1 on excel) for every experiment, and found that of course, the more bulbs connected in parallel the higher K but not in a linear fashion, but that's not the problem...
The mistery begun when my girlfriend(she helps me a lot in my research) asked me why i didnt shortcircuited the motor and then we tried, at first the results were a K a little bit bigger than 8 bulbs in parallel( of course because that's a very low resistance arrangement) and when speeds got faster, the data begun to increase in a non linear fashion, so non linear, that with a linear fit i got a r^2=0.9456, then tried parabolic and got a beautifull r^2=1...?

So...why is bulb resistance linear and short ciruit not? I suspected about filament temperature, but it would just make it a negative concavity curve, i think...

Excuse my english...thanks a lot :)
 
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Heros said:
Hi, i didnt know where to put this question cos its kind of multitopic, here is why...
I am working on a better way to take mechanical energy from muscles, i made a teste bench for pedalling in very different ways, including traditional(circular) pedalling, the thing is. I am measuring the power of the athletes with a big dc motor(working as dynamo) attached with a lot of possible connections of incandescent car bulbs, and so, i tested diferents speeds and number/setup of light bulbs to produce different "brake" powers.
The thing is that after a lot of experiments to determine the torque vs speed function for every light bulbs setup and i discovered nothing surprising, the torque function is like this Torque=k*speed+RestingFriction being k of course the constant i was looking for.

I made a curve fit and got a very good precision(r^2=1 on excel) for every experiment, and found that of course, the more bulbs connected in parallel the higher K but not in a linear fashion, but that's not the problem...
The mistery begun when my girlfriend(she helps me a lot in my research) asked me why i didnt shortcircuited the motor and then we tried, at first the results were a K a little bit bigger than 8 bulbs in parallel( of course because that's a very low resistance arrangement) and when speeds got faster, the data begun to increase in a non linear fashion, so non linear, that with a linear fit i got a r^2=0.9456, then tried parabolic and got a beautifull r^2=1...?

So...why is bulb resistance linear and short ciruit not? I suspected about filament temperature, but it would just make it a negative concavity curve, i think...

Excuse my english...thanks a lot :)

Welcome to the PF.

It sounds like you may be saturating the motor/generator. Above a certain output current, the magnetics can start to saturate and lose their effectiveness. Do you have specs on the motor/generator? Can you measure that short-circuit current?
 
Hi berkeman, thanks for your reply.
Its a 750 watts 48 volts chinese motor, i measured last week a 28 amp top.
But i don't think that's the reason, because at near zero speed the curve at short circuit had a very similar K than 8 bulbs in parallel.( 0.006235 and 0.006153 respectively).
 
How do you relate all this to Ohm's law not being linear?
 
nasu said:
How do you relate all this to Ohm's law not being linear?
Sorry, i jumped off what i though that was obvious, but nothing is obvious...
When a permanent magnet motor moves, creates an electromagnetic force over the electrons in the copper windings, that can be assumed as a kind of voltage, called "lenz force", that "voltage" creates a current across the conductor, and that current, creates an electromagnetic field that interacts with the permanent magnetic field of the motor, trying to "brake" its movement...
Thats how i relate them...
 
Heros said:
Its a 750 watts 48 volts chinese motor, i measured last week a 28 amp top.
You've said very little about your generator with that.
Output voltage vs load current of DC generators can have qualitatively different characteristics.
Besides, it looks like you change more things at same time in these tests. And yes, incadescent light bulbs have nonlinear resistance
 
Heros said:
Sorry, i jumped off what i though that was obvious, but nothing is obvious...
When a permanent magnet motor moves, creates an electromagnetic force over the electrons in the copper windings, that can be assumed as a kind of voltage, called "lenz force", that "voltage" creates a current across the conductor, and that current, creates an electromagnetic field that interacts with the permanent magnetic field of the motor, trying to "brake" its movement...
Thats how i relate them...
So where is Ohm'a law in all this? And what would mean that is not linear?
You mean that the conductors in the motor do not follow Ohm's law?

Maybe is just that the title is not appropriate.
 
zoki85 said:
You've said very little about your generator with that.
Output voltage vs load current of DC generators can have qualitatively different characteristics.
Besides, it looks like you change more things at same time in these tests. And yes, incadescent light bulbs have nonlinear resistance

All dc motors/generator use the same force font, current, and it flows through copper en all the cases, i don't see why that much interest in the motor itself.
I can guess light bulbs have non-linear behavior, but that's exactly the opposite that i got, a perfect straight line, and when connected in short circuit got the cuadratic fashion torque curve...
 
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Heros said:
Hi berkeman, thanks for your reply.
Its a 750 watts 48 volts chinese motor, i measured last week a 28 amp top.
But i don't think that's the reason, because at near zero speed the curve at short circuit had a very similar K than 8 bulbs in parallel.( 0.006235 and 0.006153 respectively).
And if magnetics would get saturated, the curve would loose slope as speed increases, not getting more slope as it does.
 
  • #10
Heros said:
The thing is that after a lot of experiments to determine the torque vs speed function for every light bulbs setup and i discovered nothing surprising, the torque function is like this Torque=k*speed+RestingFriction being k of course the constant i was looking for.
If I'm understanding you properly, you mean you generated a number of (torque, speed) pairs and fit them to a line of slope k. How did you measure the torque and speed?
 
  • #11
Exactly.
 
  • #12
Is the motor/wire getting hot?
 
  • #13
Heros said:
All dc motors/generator use the same force font, current, and it flows through copper en all the cases, i don't see why that much interest in the motor itself.
And most people look alike, except that they behave different in extreme case situations
 
  • #14
Nugatory said:
If I'm understanding you properly, you mean you generated a number of (torque, speed) pairs and fit them to a line of slope k. How did you measure the torque and speed?
Yes that's it, data pairs.
I measured them by putting the motor on a very high place, the motor has a pulley of a known diameter, and i winded many different known wheights... I left the motor accelerate until a terminal speed, when wheighttorque+braketorque=0, then i just measured the speed.
 
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  • #15
CWatters said:
Is the motor/wire getting hot?
Not that much, i can touch it after a 15 minutes elite cyclist test.