Olympiad Problem -- Revisiting the problem with 3 blocks and a pulley

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a physics problem involving three blocks and a pulley, specifically focusing on the motion of a hanging block in relation to a larger block and the pulley system. Participants explore the dynamics of the system, including the forces acting on the blocks and the implications of their movements over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the hanging block will not descend vertically with respect to its original position but will remain vertical with respect to the pulley.
  • Others argue that the pulley wire is centered on the mass, suggesting that the hanging block descends vertically relative to the pulley.
  • A participant introduces the Lagrangian mechanics approach to analyze the system, indicating a mathematical framework for solving the problem.
  • Some participants discuss the initial conditions of the system, noting that at time zero, the string is vertical, but question how this changes over time.
  • There is a contention regarding the forces acting on the blocks, with some stating that the string exerts only a vertical component of force on the hanging block, while others challenge this view by questioning the implications for the motion of the pulley and the larger block.
  • Concerns are raised about the horizontal component of tension in the string and its effect on the movement of both the hanging block and the larger block.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the motion of the hanging block relative to the pulley and the ground. Multiple competing views remain regarding the dynamics of the system and the interpretation of forces acting on the blocks.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions highlight the complexity of the problem, including the need for assumptions about the system's constraints and the implications of those assumptions on the analysis. There are unresolved mathematical steps and varying interpretations of the forces involved.

  • #61
A.T. said:
I assumed that (in the rest frame of M) the sum of gravity and inertial force on the hanging m is parallel to the string. This lead me to the following relationship:
$$\mu= \frac{1}{2} \: cos(\theta) \: cot(\theta)$$
I get $$\mu= \frac{1}{2} (1- \sin(\theta)) \cot(\theta)$$I got that two different ways. Initially by an analysis of forces looking for a constant angle. Then, by using the E-L equations with constant angle.
A.T. said:
I think it makes more sense that when μ goes to 0, then θ approaches π/2
The full formula above does this. But not, of course, the small angle approximation.
 
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  • #62
PeroK said:
I get $$\mu= \frac{1}{2} (1- \sin(\theta)) \cot(\theta)$$I got that two different ways. Initially by an analysis of forces looking for a constant angle. Then, by using the E-L equations with constant angle.
Yours also agrees better with the simulation. So I guess I made an error somewhere.
 
  • #63
PeroK said:
There is no smallest number greater than zero.
I didn't mean to suggest that I thought there to be such a thing as a least number among the positive reals; mea culpa for any notional abuse on my part; I am not at odds with the fundamental theorem of calculus, and I accept the epsilon-delta definition of limits, as described here: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Epsilon-DeltaDefinition.html.

I was seeking to evoke an acknowledgment that at any finite time greater than zero, the leftward acceleration of falling ##m## is non-zero ##-## that despite its acceleration not being the same as that of the large block and pulley, it is just as true for it that it is non-zero at any arbitrarily small finite ##t>0##, as it is for the large block and pulley.

I think that there is no incompatibility between this statement of yours:
PeroK said:
So, there is no finite initial time during which the block does not move.
and this statement of mine:
sysprog said:
I think that at any ##t>0## the leftward acceleration of falling ##m## is also greater than zero.
That seeems to me to be obscured in some aspects of the following exchange:
I posted:
sysprog said:
Isn't the leftward acceleration of ##m## at that point also greater than zero? I think that at any ##t>0## the leftward acceleration of falling ##m## is also greater than zero. Do you agree with that?
and @Baluncore posted:
Baluncore said:
sysprog said:
Isn't the leftward acceleration of ##m## at that point also greater than zero?
Yes. All the plots of acceleration, velocity and position pass through the origin at t = 0.
On release at t = 0, the big M block gains a fixed acceleration.
At t = 0, the falling m block has zero horizontal acceleration.
I think that "on release at t = 0" might be more clearly expressed as "immediately at ##t>0##", and similarly, I think that the hanging ##m## block isn't rightly called "falling" until ##t>0##. However, I think that the first sentence of @Baluncore's response is abundantly clear: he said "Yes" to the question.
 

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