Olympiad Problem -- Revisiting the problem with 3 blocks and a pulley

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SUMMARY

The forum discussion centers on the dynamics of a system involving three blocks and a pulley, specifically analyzing the movement of a hanging block (denoted as ##m##) in relation to a larger block (denoted as ##M##). Participants debated whether the hanging block remains vertical with respect to the pulley after release or if it begins to descend vertically relative to the ground. The consensus indicates that the hanging block does not descend vertically with respect to the ground due to the requirement of a horizontal component of force, which necessitates a gap forming between the two blocks. The Lagrangian mechanics approach is referenced, highlighting the complexities of the system's motion.

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  • #61
A.T. said:
I assumed that (in the rest frame of M) the sum of gravity and inertial force on the hanging m is parallel to the string. This lead me to the following relationship:
$$\mu= \frac{1}{2} \: cos(\theta) \: cot(\theta)$$
I get $$\mu= \frac{1}{2} (1- \sin(\theta)) \cot(\theta)$$I got that two different ways. Initially by an analysis of forces looking for a constant angle. Then, by using the E-L equations with constant angle.
A.T. said:
I think it makes more sense that when μ goes to 0, then θ approaches π/2
The full formula above does this. But not, of course, the small angle approximation.
 
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  • #62
PeroK said:
I get $$\mu= \frac{1}{2} (1- \sin(\theta)) \cot(\theta)$$I got that two different ways. Initially by an analysis of forces looking for a constant angle. Then, by using the E-L equations with constant angle.
Yours also agrees better with the simulation. So I guess I made an error somewhere.
 
  • #63
PeroK said:
There is no smallest number greater than zero.
I didn't mean to suggest that I thought there to be such a thing as a least number among the positive reals; mea culpa for any notional abuse on my part; I am not at odds with the fundamental theorem of calculus, and I accept the epsilon-delta definition of limits, as described here: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Epsilon-DeltaDefinition.html.

I was seeking to evoke an acknowledgment that at any finite time greater than zero, the leftward acceleration of falling ##m## is non-zero ##-## that despite its acceleration not being the same as that of the large block and pulley, it is just as true for it that it is non-zero at any arbitrarily small finite ##t>0##, as it is for the large block and pulley.

I think that there is no incompatibility between this statement of yours:
PeroK said:
So, there is no finite initial time during which the block does not move.
and this statement of mine:
sysprog said:
I think that at any ##t>0## the leftward acceleration of falling ##m## is also greater than zero.
That seeems to me to be obscured in some aspects of the following exchange:
I posted:
sysprog said:
Isn't the leftward acceleration of ##m## at that point also greater than zero? I think that at any ##t>0## the leftward acceleration of falling ##m## is also greater than zero. Do you agree with that?
and @Baluncore posted:
Baluncore said:
sysprog said:
Isn't the leftward acceleration of ##m## at that point also greater than zero?
Yes. All the plots of acceleration, velocity and position pass through the origin at t = 0.
On release at t = 0, the big M block gains a fixed acceleration.
At t = 0, the falling m block has zero horizontal acceleration.
I think that "on release at t = 0" might be more clearly expressed as "immediately at ##t>0##", and similarly, I think that the hanging ##m## block isn't rightly called "falling" until ##t>0##. However, I think that the first sentence of @Baluncore's response is abundantly clear: he said "Yes" to the question.
 

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