Pacific Palisades Fire Threatening Santa Monica, California

[gmax137]

It is the responsibility of state and local governments to manage and provide safe infrastructure.

Maybe, in some senses. But the power T&D lines are owned, as far as I know, by the power companies, not the state.

Here's three interesting articles:
https://www.powereng.com/library/reacting-is-not-a-plan-whats-your-wildfire-strategy
https://www.powereng.com/library/wildfire-mitigation-a-framework-to-manage-risk/
https://www.powereng.com/library/understanding-wildfire-risks-from-poles-lines-and-substations

 

[QuarkyMeson]

Maybe, in some senses. But the power T&D lines are owned, as far as I know, by the power companies, not the state.

Here's three interesting articles:
https://www.powereng.com/library/reacting-is-not-a-plan-whats-your-wildfire-strategy
https://www.powereng.com/library/wildfire-mitigation-a-framework-to-manage-risk/
https://www.powereng.com/library/understanding-wildfire-risks-from-poles-lines-and-substations

I think, at least in California, it's pretty complicated as far as where private begins and public ends wrt T&D lines and electrical utilities in general. I'm certaintly not an expert there.

Thanks for the articles, I'll check them out.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One reporter for the local ABC news spent six years shopping and saving for a home. She and her husband finally found their dream home in the Palisades. They spent one night in it before it burned down in this fire.

 

[Astronuc]

Not quite six years ago, wildfire expert Jack Cohen, who lives in Missoula, in the US state of Montana, visited Pacific Palisades to instruct firefighters and property owners on how to protect homes against wildfires.

Three days of training, including a tour of the community left Cohen hopeful, but the feeling faded when it became clear that his lessons were not going to be fully implemented.

The recent outbreak of wildfires raging in the region has left him with a deep sadness.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-share-inconvenient-truths-wildfires-113520873.html

 

[gmax137]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-share-inconvenient-truths-wildfires-113520873.html

Thanks @Astronuc that piece should be read and re-read.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't see that he gave any concrete suggestions that aren't already well known.

He even makes outdated and false statements. No one thinks this is seasonal anymore. Californians are the first to tell you it is fire season all year now. There are no seasons.

Now we will get the rash of I-told-you-so nonsense. Sure, there are many things that can be learned and be improved. But this event was an act of nature. It was a fire hurricane in a tinder box where there has been no significant rain since May of last year.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

On the up side, the high-wind warning has been cancelled. The second wind storm never materialized.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Wow! A firefighter who lost his own home was walking though the ashes of his home and found his wedding ring.

The level of destruction is amazing. Even metal objects like washing machines are usually completely melted away with visible remains.

 

[QuarkyMeson]

I don't see that he gave any concrete suggestions that aren't already well known.

He even makes outdated and false statements. No one thinks this is seasonal anymore. Californians are the first to tell you it is fire season all year now. There are no seasons.

Now we will get the rash of I-told-you-so nonsense. Sure, there are many things that can be learned and be improved. But this event was an act of nature. It was a fire hurricane in a tinder box where there has been no significant rain since May of last year.

https://www.desertsun.com/story/new...ia-fire-prone-power-lines-why-not/3937653002/

This is pretty interesting. From 2019:

That program does not prioritize lines in high wildfire hazard risk zones, but some residents in communities that experienced wildfires, including coastal Malibu and Rancho Palo Verde, have pushed for that policy to change to prioritize risky areas.

Malibu is mentioned as wanting to edit the policy to underground lines in wildfire hazard risk zones first. Not sure if that policy was ever changed.

Another interesting point is how wildly different all the estimates are to underground. Edison says 2 million, PG&E says 3 million, this article says 5 million per mile, etc.

At current undergrounding rates (as of 2019, I guess it would be interesting to see the delta now versus 2025) the article quotes it would only take 1000 more years to underground all T&D lines in California.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

https://www.desertsun.com/story/new...ia-fire-prone-power-lines-why-not/3937653002/

This is pretty interesting. From 2019:



Malibu is mentioned as wanting to edit the policy to underground lines in wildfire hazard risk zones first. Not sure if that policy was ever changed.

Another interesting point is how wildly different all the estimates are to underground. Edison says 2 million, PG&E says 3 million, this article says 5 million per mile, etc.

At current undergrounding rates (as of 2019, I guess it would be interesting to see the delta now versus 2025) the article quotes it would only take 1000 more years to underground all T&D lines in California.

The bottom line is, that is a political (money) problem. Everyone knows the solutions.

People have been fighting this battle since the1970s.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

 

[Tom.G]

Citation please. It's nearly impossible to drain a large reservoir in a few days.

Obviously my memory was somewhat volatile.

https://www.ladwpnews.com/pacific-p...ing-misinformation-about-ladwps-water-system/

"No power was lost to LADWP pump stations during the fire, and water supply remained strong to the area. Water pressure in the system was lost due to unprecedented and extreme water demand to fight the wildfire without aerial support. This impacted our ability to refill the three water tanks supplying the Palisades and a low percentage of hydrants in the area, mostly in the higher elevations. As soon as LADWP identified the risk of losing water in the tanks and water pressure in the system, we immediately deployed potable water tankers to sustain support for firefighting efforts."

https://www.nbcnews.com/weather/wildfires/california-fire-water-tanks-went-dry-palisades-rcna186860

"Immense demand for water to fight the fast-moving Palisades Fire led all three of the community’s water tanks — and some fire hydrants — to temporarily dry up in the last 24 hours or so."

Cheers,
Tom

 

[DaveE]

Another interesting point is how wildly different all the estimates are to underground. Edison says 2 million, PG&E says 3 million, this article says 5 million per mile, etc.

Not that interesting or informative if you understand that California is a very large State with diverse geography and population distribution. PGE, SCE, SDGE, etc. all have pretty different service areas. Power distribution over the Mojave Desert isn't really comparable to the Northern Sierra Nevada. Plus what they say is pretty political since the utilities are regulated by the PUC.

 

[gary350]

Let it burn. It is natures way to burn the old to make way for the new we learned that in first year biology class. Why do people try to interfere with nature. TV said, this is a 50 year old forest it is full of dry dead material. If you want to live in the middle of a soon to burn dead brush pile you should have your own 30,000. water tank with your own fire hose.

 

[russ_watters]

Why do people try to interfere with nature.

Interfering with nature is a primary purpose of civilization!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Coming soon, mudslides. It is a familiar pattern to Californians.

When it finally does start to rain, the hills now barren of vegetation will be prone to mudslides. Some homes that survived the fire may well be destroyed by the mudslides that follow.

 

[Flyboy]

Eeeeyup.

And also part of the natural cycle there.

It’s not a disaster until people get in the way of nature.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Indirect death toll from the L.A. fires may end up in the thousands​

The toxic smoke from the fires, combined with disruption to the economy, health care system, and mental health may lead to thousands of deaths over the coming years.

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/...om-the-l-a-fires-may-end-up-in-the-thousands/

There is also significant concern about water contamination from all the toxic materials.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Looking at that photo, I am reminded of my childhood when the air quality in LA was at its worst. It was reported that just living in some areas of the LA basin was equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes a day; areas such as the San Fernando valley, and along the San Gabriel Mountains where the smog would often concentrate due to the winds. There were many days when it was too dangerous to go outside and play.

There were days when just the regular old smog was almost as bad as what you see in the photo above. One day I was standing on the roof of our five-story apartment and couldn't see the foothill less than a quarter mile away because the smog was so thick.

Generally, the air quality has dramatically improved since then thanks to emissions regulations.

 

[DaveE]

‘It all ended in a second’: Thousands of low-income and immigrant workers lost jobs in LA fires​

...“There’s no communities so there’s no car wash. There’s nothing more to explain. No business, no income”...
https://calmatters.org/environment/wildfires/2025/01/la-fires-workers-lost-jobs/

For Whom the Bell Tolls
by John Donne

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

27 confirmed dead
31 still missing
https://www.latimes.com/california/...are-some-victims-stories-essential-california

 

[Astronuc]

This also belongs under Weird News, "Officials say a man who tried to enter the Palisades fire zone claiming to be a volunteer firefighter was a convicted arsonist in a decommissioned fire truck."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pulled-palisades-fire-fire-engine-001837395.html

The fire truck pulled up to a checkpoint Saturday morning near where emergency workers were sifting through the wreckage caused by the Palisades fire.

The driver told the National Guard troops manning the perimeter that he was a volunteer firefighter, a law enforcement source with knowledge of the incident told The Times.

They had little reason to believe otherwise, said the official, who wasn't authorized to speak with the media and requested anonymity. The man was wearing a yellow firefighter uniform — and he was driving a full-size red fire engine outfitted with emergency lights, California license plates and an American flag.

But a firefighter at the checkpoint noticed something off about the decals on the truck, which had markings from the "Roaring River Fire Department," the official said. He told Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies to check the man's ID.

According to the law enforcement official, the man presented an Oregon driver's license with the name of Dustin Nehl. A search of Nehl's criminal history revealed he had served five years in prison for arson, the official said.


In 2017, KATU, a Portland TV station, reported that Nehl pleaded guilty to setting a series of fires at a golf course, a park and a water facility in Woodburn, Ore., a city about 30 miles south of Portland.

Nehl, 31, and his wife, 44-year-old Jennifer Nehl — who was with him — were arrested on suspicion of impersonating firefighters and unauthorized entry into an evacuation zone, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department officials said Sunday. Sheriff’s officials said they planned to ask the Los Angeles County district attorney’s office to charge the couple Tuesday.
. . . .

 

[mcastillo356]

Hi, PF

Isn`t rain to happen today, wednesday the 29th of january? Are wildfires under control?
Requiescat in Pace those who lost their lives

Greetings, Marcos

 

[Tom.G]

The rain, somewhat light, was Sunday night thru Monday morning, Jan 26 -Jan 27.
The last I heard some of the fires were still burning but 'mostly' contained.
The rain triggered some mud slides, but since there has not been a lot of noise about them I assume the slides were relatively minor.

Here is a link for current status:
https://www.fire.ca.gov/Incidents

(above link found with:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=california+wild+fires)

Thanks for asking,

Cheers,
Tom

 

[WWGD]

Today's (Sunday, Jan.12, 2025) LA Times headline:

Fire battle shifts to new front
Change in wind prompts evacuations in Brentwood, Encino, Tarzana

Some excerpts from the article:
Why water ran out as crisis raged
The water system that supplies neighborhoods simply doesn't have the capacity to deliver such large volums of water over several hours, said Martin Adams, former general manager of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power "The system has never been designed to fight a wildfire that then envelops a community..."
|
|
referring to the Eaton fire:
Pasadena fire chief Chad Augustin said having dozens of fire engines battling multiple fires resulted in overuse of the water system. "On top of that, we had a loss of power temporarily," he said, which affected the system Wednesday. (After a major fire in 1993 when the power failed, they installed backup generators at all of their pumping stations.)
|
|
The manager of the Altadena Water district, Tom Majich:
"To fight a wildfire, you have to have Lake Havasu behind you. You could fill a Rose Bowl with water and it wouldn't be enough. There's not a system that can do it."

From memory, another statement I ran across but can't find at the moment said:
City neighborhood water systems are designed to handle the daily usage of our customers and a building fire or two. We had 4 times the normal usage for 15 hours. (If i recall correctly, that emptied 2 large reservoirs, a third reservoir had been drained for needed repairs.)
[EDIT: for clarification/correction, see: https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...monica-california.1067975/page-3#post-7144495[/EDIT]

Another comment I ran across:
The fire spread so fast because "...high winds were carrying burning embers one to three miles beyond the fireline."

Well, that's the hot news from Sunny Southern California today.

Remember that "Smokey the Bear" says: "Only you can prevent forest fires."
. . . Well, maybe.

Tom

You can't believe how much angst that last line caused me as a child. Me, only me??!

 

[mcastillo356]

Seem to have ended California wildfires, as I see on latest news. Time to start working.
Don't paste the link: the source is full of politic quotes: I won't ever understand why.
Love
Marcos