News Palin pick an insult to our intelligence

[LowlyPion]

Maybe this exchange exemplifies the level of understanding she possesses about matters.

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/Story?id=5782924&page=2

Vapid, lame, evasive, irrelevant, simplistic, non-responsive. Perhaps qualities like this serve her well with Pentecostals, but taken within the context of her holding actual power is certainly frightening to me.

 

[asdfggfdsa]

Maybe this exchange exemplifies the level of understanding she possesses about matters.


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/Story?id=5782924&page=2

Vapid, lame, evasive, irrelevant, simplistic, non-responsive. Perhaps qualities like this serve her well with Pentecostals, but taken within the context of her holding actual power is certainly frightening to me.

I agree. I don't think McCain is talking to the realists like Scowcroft anymore.

 

[LowlyPion]

I agree. I don't think McCain is talking to the realists like Scowcroft anymore.

I'd be interested to get the inside story on McCain's thinking and what actual considerations and discussions led him to make this Faustian move. Undoubtedly it has more to do with electoral calculus than with any so called principles he would hold. The meanness and misrepresentations that he is engaging in, or he permits to be engaged in under his name, is a bit of a surprise as it holds his earlier statements about wanting to wage a higher discussion of the issues to rather stark ridicule.

 

[turbo]

I'd be interested to get the inside story on McCain's thinking and what actual considerations and discussions led him to make this Faustian move. Undoubtedly it has more to do with electoral calculus than with any so called principles he would hold. The meanness and misrepresentations that he is engaging in, or he permits to be engaged in under his name, is a bit of a surprise as it holds his earlier statements about wanting to wage a higher discussion of the issues to rather stark ridicule.

He's kind of stuck, though. He can't discuss issues intelligently because he's committed to continuing most of the Bush-Cheney policies that people are sick of. What does that leave? Character assassination, smears, lying about your opponents' positions - dirt. Dirt is McCain's only chance, and if the national polls are anywhere near accurate, it's working.

Will the electorate get tired of 50+ more days of dirt with no substance? That's a loaded question because most voters don't have the intelligence and/or the initiative to educate themselves on complex issues so they can tell when they're being lied to. With such people (who rely on party loyalty as opposed to reasoning and evaluation), dirt works, and substance bores them to tears because they don't understand the issues well enough to follow a discussion of them.

 

[BobG]

Watching her back-pedal on her remarks on God's will and the Iraq war was painful in the extreme, especially when she invoked Lincoln. As a governor, she should be acutely aware of the existence of video cameras at public events, and should know that her remarks are recorded in context. She should know that when we watch her linking God to the war, then later try to spin the remarks into something they were not, at least some of us are thinking "liar". I have a couple of male relatives who are evangelicals and they believe in the end times preachings. When I think of having someone like them in positions of power, I cringe.

Even more so, when Palin was blithely talking about standing up for our allies. Saber-rattling is not the answer to every problem in the world, and it is disturbing to think that somebody with apocalyptic beliefs might be in a position to take this country into a "just" war. Bush/Cheney are bad. McCain-Palin promises to be much, much worse, continuing the neo-con policies, and putting us at greater risk for more wars and economic trouble.

The quote in context from AP:

Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God," she said. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

The full quote:

“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God,” she exhorted the congregants. “That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.”

Gibson's interview:

GIBSON: You said recently, in your old church, “Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God.” Are we fighting a holy war?

PALIN: You know, I don’t know if that was my exact quote.

GIBSON: Exact words.

PALIN: But the reference there is a repeat of Abraham Lincoln’s words when he said — first, he suggested never presume to know what God’s will is, and I would never presume to know God’s will or to speak God’s words.

But what Abraham Lincoln had said, and that’s a repeat in my comments, was let us not pray that God is on our side in a war or any other time, but let us pray that we are on God’s side.

That’s what that comment was all about, Charlie.

GIBSON: I take your point about Lincoln’s words, but you went on and said, “There is a plan and it is God’s plan.”

I think she's telling the truth that that comment was somewhat borrowed from Lincoln's famous quote.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I think she's telling the truth that that comment was somewhat borrowed from Lincoln's famous quote.

Gibson twisted her words to the breaking point.

 

[turbo]

Gibson twisted her words to the breaking point.

Gibson did not twist her words. When you watch her video in context, she was claiming in no uncertain terms that God had set this task (Iraq war) for our soldiers. In the same speech, she said that God wanted a natural gas pipeline to be built, too. She indeed claims to know the will of God, despite her protestations, and the evidence is in her public speeches. I didn't hear her quoting Lincoln in this speech.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Gibson did not twist her words.

Palin's words.

That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.

Gibson's twist.

I take your point about Lincoln’s words, but you went on and said, “There is a plan and it is God’s plan.

Lincoln's words.

Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right.

 

[BobG]

I also have a problem with Gibson's question about "The Bush Doctrine". He definitely did have to spell out exactly what he meant because the Bush Doctrine has meant several things over the years:
Death of the Bush Doctrine

THE Bush Doctrine - born on Sept. 20, 2001, when President Bush bluntly warned the sponsors of violent jihad: "You are either with us, or you are with the terrorists" - is dead. Its demise was announced by Condoleezza Rice last Friday.

The Bush-Clinton-Obama Doctrine

Or, as President Bush has put it in enunciating what has come to be known as the Bush Doctrine: "For decades, free nations tolerated oppression in the Middle East for the sake of stability. In practice, this approach brought little stability and much oppression, so I have changed this policy." Or, as he put it again, "Some who call themselves realists question whether the spread of democracy in the Middle East should be any concern of ours. But the realists in this case have lost contact with a fundamental reality: America has always been less secure when freedom is in retreat; America is always more secure when freedom is on the march."

Gibson still mistated the Bush Doctrine of Fall 2002 unless you believe there was good evidence that Iraq had WMD. His definition fell far short of what the Bush administration actually did.

 

[turbo]

Palin's words.


Gibson's twist.


Lincoln's words.

Watch the video. She says that our national leaders are sending our troops to fight in Iraq and that it is God's plan. She can't deny she said that, and unless she was lying, she presumes to know what God intends. That's nothing short of scary, and no amount of "Lincoln said it" spin is going to make it go away. McCain's people prepped her with this excuse, however thin, and it does not hold up when you watch her earlier speech.

How does she know that God wants a natural-gas pipeline built? If Gibson hammered her on that, would she have claimed that Lincoln said the same thing? Let's be realistic. I have two evangelical cousins about my age who believe in end-times preaching, and whenever ANYTHING happens (someone dies, or their house burns flat, or they get a promotion, or their child is diagnosed with cancer, etc, etc) they always see it as God's will. Always. These people are creepy - causality, determinism, and rational thought disappear in the face of their blind faith.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

If you can't follow the logic, then you are probably a Democrat.

 

[LowlyPion]

I think she's telling the truth that that comment was somewhat borrowed from Lincoln's famous quote.

Come on. Lincoln's quote was said within the context of a Civil War. His was a mission that required that if victorious the South would need reassimilation. To claim that the North's cause was more just would have been hubris, especially within that context, and my reading of Lincoln suggests to me that he was generally pragmatic about the war and its prosecution, and its ultimate conclusion.

Palin's comment looks like thoughtless hubris insofar as I am fairly certain that she actually believes that God is on her side in some way against the interest of others that do not believe in the Pentecostal vision. Her God apparently plays favorites, and she would count herself among them and the Muslims not. She sounds to me like she thinks the war in Iraq is a just war - even though we came to the battle through cynical deception and misrepresentation by the current administration.

Frankly I think that reveals an egocentric perspective on her part without any glimmer of recognition that Muslims may have a valid point about US involvement in their affairs. And that as misguided as Osama Bin Laden may have been in his tactics, no matter how cowardly his method, we have behaved badly with our policies there.

 

[quadraphonics]

Twisting of words was hardly necessary: I'm more alarmed by the picture of electorate/executive interaction implicit in Palin's comments than any of the stuff about God or Lincoln. "Pray that there is a plan?" No, in a democracy, we have much more direct ways of ensuring that war planning gets done properly. For example, we can decline to vote for people that leave any doubt as to whether they will plan ahead before going to war. We can also directly demand to know what the plan is, who made it, and why it wasn't done differently. And we can pressure Congress to refuse to go along with said plans if we don't like them. When you get to the point of having to pray that a plan even exists in the first place, you're in serious trouble.

 

[turbo]

If you can't follow the logic, then you are probably a Democrat.

I am an independent and am far more fiscally conservative and far more protective of individual rights and far more conservative with regard to foreign affairs than the Republicans currently in power. If you want to use insults (stupid=Democrat) to further your discourse, you picked the wrong guy. Show me where in the video that I linked that Sarah Palin did NOT claim to know God's will.

The world is not black-and-white Jimmy, and though many Republican and Democratic candidates have enjoyed my support in the past, the current crop of neo-con-serving Republicans currently controlling our foreign affairs and economic policy deserve to be swept out of power. If you can't follow that logic...

 

[BobG]

Twisting of words was hardly necessary: I'm more alarmed by the picture of electorate/executive interaction implicit in Palin's comments than any of the stuff about God or Lincoln. "Pray that there is a plan?" No, in a democracy, we have much more direct ways of ensuring that war planning gets done properly. For example, we can decline to vote for people that leave any doubt as to whether they will plan ahead before going to war. We can also directly demand to know what the plan is, who made it, and why it wasn't done differently. And we can pressure Congress to refuse to go along with said plans if we don't like them. When you get to the point of having to pray that a plan even exists in the first place, you're in serious trouble.

When you get to the point of having to pray that there actually is a Bush Doctrine? Have you been out of the country for several years? Congress stand up to Bush? Even with public opinion polls showing that most of the country opposed invading Iraq without UN approval, Congress folded - Democrats included. They gave him a blank check while mumbling about how they hoped he didn't abuse it.

Edit: Completely irrelevant to the argument about Palin's comment, by the way, but I couldn't help myself.

 

[chemisttree]

Watch the video. She says that our national leaders are sending our troops to fight in Iraq and that it is God's plan. She can't deny she said that, and unless she was lying, she presumes to know what God intends.

Palins ACTUAL words from the video.

…Pray for our military. He’s going to be deployed in September to Iraq. Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right also for this country. That our leaders, our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2ypVSYoEKA&NR=1

 

[turbo]

"... our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God" Combined with her assertions that God wants a natural gas pipeline built, it seems that she and God are pretty tight. I should ask her if God wants me to win the Powerball lottery.

 

[mheslep]

But what Abraham Lincoln had said, and that's a repeat in my comments, was let us NOT pray that God is on our side in a war or any other time, but let us pray that we are on God's side.

U2's Bono used almost exactly the same phrasing in describing his aid to Africa work. Clearly he's another right wing nut job channelling God.

Edit:

I believe in the kingdom come
Then all the colors will bleed into one
Bleed into one
Well yes I'm still running

You broke the bonds and you
Loosed the chains
Carried the cross
Of my shame
Of my shame
You know I believed it

Yep, no question, nut job, lock him up.

 

[chemisttree]

"... our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God" Combined with her assertions that God wants a natural gas pipeline built, it seems that she and God are pretty tight. I should ask her if God wants me to win the Powerball lottery.

So why did you parse the quote like that?

Definition:
Yellow Journalism - Journalism that exploits, distorts, or exaggerates the news to create sensations and attract readers.

 

[mheslep]

Gibson twisted her words to the breaking point.

Compare that, and his tone, to his Obama interview:
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Story?id=4404210&page=4

...Senator, you're kind to take the time, on a day when you legitimately should be able to simply just take long naps. I thank you. All the best to you.

Better than the SNL can I get you a pillow skit.

 

[LowlyPion]

When you get to the point of having to pray that there actually is a Bush Doctrine? Have you been out of the country for several years? Congress stand up to Bush? Even with public opinion polls showing that most of the country opposed invading Iraq without UN approval, Congress folded - Democrats included. They gave him a blank check while mumbling about how they hoped he didn't abuse it.

But Obama has voted against the war much to his credit.

And he is after all the candidate that represents change in a good way, and not in a retarded way.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I am an independent.

Please accept my sincere apologies turbo-1. That post was not directed at you. I'm sorry you took it that way and I blame myself for it.

 

[BobG]

I have to admit the church's pastor, Pastor Kalnin, is every bit as bizarre as Rev Wright ever was, seeming to believe the end times are coming and that Alaska will be filled with hundreds of thousands of refugees from the lower 48 - something even Palin isn't totally oblivious to:

As I travel around the state, it's really cool to visit other communities and visit other churches and, once in a while, a pastor will come up to me before the service starts and say, "Now, I don't know about your background, but, you know, you're welcome here at our worship service and, now, don't be surprised if maybe a parishioner or two want to raise their hands and clap", and I say, "I grew up at Wassilla Assembly of God! Nothing freaks me out about a worship service!"

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Show me where in the video that I linked that Sarah Palin did NOT claim to know God's will.

This is non-sequitur. Gibson twisted her words. I quoted her, I quoted him. His words twist hers. I don't care how many times since the big bang Gibson did not twist Palin's words. I quoted the one time that he did.

 

[turbo]

This is non-sequitur. Gibson twisted her words. I quoted her, I quoted him. His words twist hers. I don't care how many times since the big bang Gibson did not twist Palin's words. I quoted the one time that he did.

Here is the clip again.



Watch the clip, and pay attention. When you manage to get to a point at which you can dispute the point that Palin claims to know the will of God in regard to the Iraq war or the natural gas pipeline, please provide citations. You can't. Gibson did not twist her words - he gave her a chance to clarify her words and she blew it with some contrived scripted reference to Lincoln. Lame.

 

[BobG]

Show me where in the video that I linked that Sarah Palin did NOT claim to know God's will.

How about at about 7:55 into the video:

Because I didn't know if I was going to make it here tonight ... I flew in from Juneau last night and fly back to Juneau again, tomorrow ... so I didn't prepare anything thinking that our schedule wouldn't allow me to be here.

If she knew God's will, she would have prepared something and probably would have delivered the part she stole from Lincoln a little better.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Here is the clip again.



Watch the clip, and pay attention. When you manage to get to a point at which you can dispute the point that Palin claims to know the will of God in regard to the Iraq war or the natural gas pipeline, please provide citations. You can't. Gibson did not twist her words - he gave her a chance to clarify her words and she blew it with some contrived scripted reference to Lincoln. Lame.

I watched the clip and payed attention. At roughly 53 seconds into the clip she says this:

That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.

This is how Gibson twisted it:

I take your point about Lincoln’s words, but you went on and said, “There is a plan and it is God’s plan.

Note, that while Palin did indeed say pretty much as Gibson says, the part that he leaves out makes a crucial difference in the meaning. The reason that it is crucial is that if you leave it in, it does echo Lincoln's words, but if you leave it out then it does not.

 

[turbo]

How about at about 7:55 into the video:

If she knew God's will, she would have prepared something and probably would have delivered the part she stole from Lincoln a little better.

She didn't steal anything from Lincoln, IMO. Her tenuous grasp of history, foreign affairs, etc makes that highly unlikely. She spoke off-the-cuff and McCain's staff tried to give her that fig leaf to cover her evangelist faith, and it failed. Now, you can disagree if you like, but then you'll have to explain how Palin knew that God wanted a natural-gas pipeline built, in the same speech. Did Lincoln claim that God wanted a natural-gas pipeline?

Palin-apologists are stretching the truth thinner than a gnat's butt across a rain-barrel. She is on record with a number of public pronouncements, and they cannot be waved away with faith and bluster.

 

[quadraphonics]

Note, that while Palin did indeed say pretty much as Gibson says, the part that he leaves out makes a crucial difference in the meaning.

Indeed; not only is she not claiming to know God's plan, she is also claiming not to know if Bush even had a plan for the war in the first place. And, to boot, suggeting that the appropriate response to said ignorance is prayer and not, you know, actual engagement with policy. What's she going to do if she becomes president and there's a crisis? Pray that her cabinet has a plan?

 

[LowlyPion]

What's she going to do if she becomes president and there's a crisis? Pray that her cabinet has a plan?

Undoubtedly she will have Rove and Cheney around as valued advisers to help her bridge her faith with government policies.