People slipping through the cracks

[Pengwuino]

Something I've been noticing a lot is that there are a LOT of students who have somehow slipped through a ton of cracks in the "system" of education. Today I heard something from a grad student that absolutely took the cake. He does tutoring and one day he is helping someone with their intro to mechanics work and he finds out something absolutely insane. The person had no concept of what volume was... he didn't know what it was! And there was nothing special about this person either... not foreign or "special" or anything that could remotely explain what was going on. Another time he had someone who (this is less spectacular) who did not know an ellipse was a shape!
Now this stuff is 2nd grade information... and there's plenty of barriers meant to stop these people from advancing until they know the material... so what exactly is going on here? I mean you have to pass classes in every grade... you many times have to pass exit exams in high school... there's math requirements in high school... there's math requirements to enter the university... there's even math requirements to get into that class. How are people doing this? Does the educational system in the US need re-evaluating?

 

[fourier jr]

mel hurtig wrote in "the vanishing country" that it's possible for someone in Canada to get a phd in history without doing a single course on Canadian history. i guess the world is a crazy enough place that it's possible but he didn't list the universities that don't have Canadian history required for history students, so who knows.

 

[bomba923]

Referring back to Pengwuino's example...

Well, I'm a HS senior and to pay for AP tests I have to tutor some people to pay for AP exams (really, it's a HS program thing-->not an individual project).

One of the people I'm tutoring is taking AlgebraII and cannot multiply fractions Another person I tutor in AlgebraII cannot solve simple proportions.

Whoever reads this thread MUST ALSO READ THESE:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=96967
and
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=66263
and
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=95904

Speaking of holes in the educational system

 

[matthyaouw]

Now this stuff is 2nd grade information...

Perhaps the problem is that once it has been learned, in some cases it is just assumed that people will remember what they are taught forever, and it doesn't get touched on again until much later. I learned so much maths in high school, but I've simply not used it since, and as a consequence don't remember much of it.

 

[Pengwuino]

But volume... how can you "lose" that information? We literally deal with it every single day of our lives. I mean this isn't formulas we're talking about or properties... we're talking about their actual physical existence.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

But Pengwuino! Don't you realize that we are all equal? And that it's wrong to make people feel stupid by failing them? And that it racist to give bad grades to people who aren't white?

 

[Pengwuino]

But Pengwuino! Don't you realize that we are all equal? And that it's wrong to make people feel stupid by failing them? And that it racist to give bad grades to people who aren't white?

*beats Ape with a salmon*

 

[fourier jr]

But Pengwuino! Don't you realize that we are all equal? And that it's wrong to make people feel stupid by failing them? And that it racist to give bad grades to people who aren't white?

chomsky is a hardcore anarchist who believes in montessori/dewey/etc-style education. if you read his reviews on www.ratemyprofessers.com he's a very harsh marker. i would think that he believes in challenging a student just as much as anybody.

 

[Moonbear]

Volume? Hmmm...let's see, that's the button you press on the remote control to make the TV louder, right?

*stands back and watches Pengwuino stroke out*

Okay, I have to admit it's hard to figure out how someone got through life without knowing what volume means, though, an ellipse is a bit different. That's not exactly one of the shapes in the shape-sorter for 2 year-olds. I could see how someone would be taught that in geometry and just as quickly forget the name because there's no reason for most people to ever use the word again.

Once in a while I get shocked to realize there are kids who don't know things that I thought every kid grew up knowing. One of our technicians was telling me the other day that she used to give farm tours to the city kids who would come on class trips to see animals. They had a hereford cow (one of the brown varieties...you know, like the rhyme "How now brown cow?"), and one of the kids asked her if it was a goat! Even if you've never been on a real farm, how do you grow up not knowing what a cow looks like? Hasn't everyone had the Playschool See and Say thing with the cows that go moo, and the pigs that go oink?

 

[ranger]

Perhaps the problem is that once it has been learned, in some cases it is just assumed that people will remember what they are taught forever, and it doesn't get touched on again until much later. I learned so much maths in high school, but I've simply not used it since, and as a consequence don't remember much of it.

Wow...well said.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

chomsky is a hardcore anarchist who believes in montessori/dewey/etc-style education. if you read his reviews on www.ratemyprofessers.com he's a very harsh marker. i would think that he believes in challenging a student just as much as anybody.

I definitely believe in different types of intelligence and that people have differing strong points and weak points. My comment was really just a joke about the direction that things have gone here in CA where Pengwuino and I live. There are seriously schools here that still want to institute the use of "ebonics" in the class room and say that asking students to learn and be proficient with the english language is racist (hence the comment about racism). They are also against testing senior high school students to be sure they have actually attained an education before they graduate them so as to not let people slip through the cracks. When a school tested out this idea and several students failed the exit exam they protested that we would be ruining these kids' futures by not allowing them to graduate.

 

[Pengwuino]

When a school tested out this idea and several students failed the exit exam they protested that we would be ruining these kids' futures by not allowing them to graduate.

Yah I remember that. I am sorry but putting someone out in the real world with no skills is going to ruin someones future must quicker then hurting their feelings by holding them back. I mean when did feelings become so important.

 

[zoobyshoe]

How are people doing this? Does the educational system in the US need re-evaluating?

From what people have been posting here at PF, it seems there is a huge problem, and it is starting to worry me. Public education has never been perfect, but it used to be basically reliable in a way it doesn't seem to be anymore.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Agreed. It's a very sad state of affairs. The recent California high school exit exam scores speak volumes:
http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-093005exit_lat,0,1534949.story?coll=la-home-headlines

One-Fifth of High School Seniors Fail California Exit Exam
By Duke Helfand, Times Staff Writer

Nearly 100,000 California 12th graders — or about 20% of this year's senior class — have failed the state's graduation exam, potentially jeopardizing their chances of earning diplomas, according to the most definitive report on the mandatory test released today.

Students in the class of 2006, the first group to face the graduation requirement, must pass both sections of the English and math test by next June.

The exit exam, which has come under criticism by some educators, legislators and civil rights advocates, is geared to an 8th grade level in math and to ninth- and 10th grade levels in English.

But the report by the Virginia-based Human Resources Research Organization showed that tens of thousands of students — particularly those in special education and others who speak English as a second language — may fail the test by the end of their senior year despite remedial classes, after-school tutoring and other academic help.

Teachers, according to the report, said that that many students arrive unprepared and unmotivated for their high school courses and that their grades often reflect poor attendance and low parental involvement.

 

[Pengwuino]

Nearly 100,000 California 12th graders — or about 20% of this year's senior class — have failed the state's graduation exam, potentially jeopardizing their chances of earning diplomas, according to the most definitive report on the mandatory test released today.

I think we can start looking here for our problem. You don't have a "chance" to "EARN" things. You just earn them. You don't go to work and do your work for the "chance" of earning your paycheck. People are acting like this is anything other then something you work at an earn. If you can't pass this test, then you have not earned what a diploma signifies.

 

[zoobyshoe]

...and low parental involvement...

This is a pretty deadly problem in and of itself.

 

[fourier jr]

I definitely believe in different types of intelligence and that people have differing strong points and weak points. My comment was really just a joke about the direction that things have gone here in CA where Pengwuino and I live. There are seriously schools here that still want to institute the use of "ebonics" in the class room and say that asking students to learn and be proficient with the english language is racist (hence the comment about racism). They are also against testing senior high school students to be sure they have actually attained an education before they graduate them so as to not let people slip through the cracks. When a school tested out this idea and several students failed the exit exam they protested that we would be ruining these kids' futures by not allowing them to graduate.

oh well now i understand then, that IS crazy i can't believe that's even taken seriously

 

[Pengwuino]

Well you don't want to offend anyone by not allowing made-up racial inspired languages that further create racial problems through its use.

Or something like that...

 

[Moonbear]

I definitely believe in different types of intelligence and that people have differing strong points and weak points. My comment was really just a joke about the direction that things have gone here in CA where Pengwuino and I live. There are seriously schools here that still want to institute the use of "ebonics" in the class room and say that asking students to learn and be proficient with the english language is racist (hence the comment about racism). They are also against testing senior high school students to be sure they have actually attained an education before they graduate them so as to not let people slip through the cracks. When a school tested out this idea and several students failed the exit exam they protested that we would be ruining these kids' futures by not allowing them to graduate.

When the ebonics thing first came out, my reaction then is the same as it is now...that is racism! Deciding that because a kid is black and growing up in an inner city they can't learn proper English, and to then handicap them by not even trying, you just don't get any more racist than that.

Yah I remember that. I am sorry but putting someone out in the real world with no skills is going to ruin someones future must quicker then hurting their feelings by holding them back. I mean when did feelings become so important.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I see too much of trying to sugar-coat everything to avoid hurting kids' feelings rather than giving them the constructive criticism and honest evaluation that they need to improve.

 

[infinitus]

A girl in both my maths b and physics classes was unable to add and subtract fractions from each other for the majority of year 11.

 

[Norman]

The problem with ebonics is twofold in my opinion. Firstly, it is a valid language and is a distinct derivative of English in the sense of Linguistics. Secondly, I don't hear a national outcry to ban the use of "ya'll" in southern school systems or making new englanders pronounce the r's on the end of words ("pahk you cah in Hahvahd yahd"- translated as- park your car in Harvard Yard). These regional variations get slowly integrated into the national mindset and accepted gradually. By the time kids in middle school are having children, the issue of ebonics will no longer be an issue (I think). How do you decide what is the correct version of a language that can have extreme variation on a very small scale? If you doubt this- go to Wisconsin. Stay in Green Bay for a couple days- you will begin to see the local dialect in action. Then go to a little town called Two Rivers which is 20 miles away. This area has an insane accent and pronounciation scheme that is clearly distinct from the local area and the rest of the state. If while you are there, and you ask them what town you are in, I would bet you good money you wouldn't understand what came out of their mouth corresponded to Two Rivers. So who decideds what is proper grammer, prounciation, etc. in a country that does not have a national language? (And if our forefathers would have decided on one, there would have been a good chance it would German).

 

[Artman]

My wife and I owned a store for a while and we saw some amazing examples of our educational system at work. We had an employee who thought a ten percent discount was $1.00 no matter what the value of the object being discounted. And he thought that 3% tax was 3 cents, ALWAYS, again, no matter how much the item costs.

After he left us for school, guess what he took in college? Accounting! Some teacher had a lot of work ahead of them.

 

[Chi Meson]

I have been following the rants on this and that other thread. And I have been holding my breath until now. So as you all might know, I am a public high school teacher. Allow me to open the view to the "other side."

FIrst of all: whenever somebody has not learned something, the fault is not automatically that of "the public schools." OK, someone did not know what volume was. I remember a 1st-year student at UVA who didn't know what an "anvil" was. Some people forget things becuase it is not important to them. This is why I can't speak German anymore.

There are problems, no doubt. Some teachers are bad teachers; some teachers should be kept away from kids at all times; but answer yes or no to the following questions:
"Should we try to hire better teachers?"
"Do teachers get paid too much money?"

You can answer yes or no to either one of these questions (and that is your perfectly valid opinion), but if you answer yes to BOTH of these questions, you need to take a basic course in economics.

I am fortunate eneough to teach in Connecticut which compensates teachers better than 48 other states. IF my school offered me the salary that they give to teachers in some other states, I'd say "Why bother?" I'll take my Physics degree and put it to use elsewhere. You get what you pay for, and for decades the pay for teacher throughout this country has been deplorable. Consequently, we still have many deplorable teachers.

Across this country we do have teachers who are teaching because they can't do anything else (in Connecticut they are disappearing through attrition, but it takes several years). Compound that with a generation of kids who have less responsibility than ever before; who have grown up in a culture of complaint; who have an excuse for everything and nothing is their own fault...

deep breath

Here's an analogy. Imagine there is a town dentist. The teeth of this dentist's patients are clean and white and there are no cavities. The dentist tells the kids to brush three times a day, what not to eat, etc. What a great dentist! THis is a private dentist though, he only allows kids with clean teeth to be his patients. On the other side of town the kids are given lots of candy and junk food by their parents. The parents never make the kids brush their teeth. THe parents don't care if the kid skips a cleaning appointment. This dentist is REQUIRED to take everyone who can't afford the expensive private dentist, but all his patients have rotten teeth. What a lousy dentist, huh?

I teach a class of AP/IB physics. Students of mine have gone to MIT(2!), Harvard, Yale, Brown, BC, BU, UVA, Stanford, on and on and on. THe best schools in the country. THey went throught exactly the same schools as the rest of the students. I teach also a class called "Foundations of General Science" in which the students are surprised to find that the Earth goes around the sun. Again, they went to the same schools, same classes as the MIT-bound kids.

"Hold those kids back then" I hear eveyone cry. OK, so, the most difficult students, the ones that cost the most resources, are to stay in school longer, for more years, BUT the school budget is already "way too much" and must be cut. Have you taken that economics course yet? [/RANT]

 

[Artman]

Chi,
I don't know about the others, but I don't find the teachers at fault. Perhaps the system, but not the teachers. I find more fault with parents. Especially parents who support stupidity through their actions. For instance when children misbehave in school, instead of supporting the teacher, the parents are in there defending their little deliquents. Or when a child doesn't learn and the parents still want the child pushed through so they won't drop behind their class.

Also, parents should be aware that not every student is college bound material. Vocational education is a good option for many of these children.

 

[pattylou]

At the college level, I am most amazed at two areas that "should be" ingrained in the students. these students have all had 12 years of education, and I don't understand why they have problems in these two most basic areas.

The first area that leaps out at me, is poor writing skills. (Some participants here have writing skills could use some attention.) Communication is one of the most fundamental skills that needs to be learned. It's basic. My students routinely write answers to essay questions - that are completely incomprehensible. Every error is made, from sentence fragments to run-on sentences to no paragraph breaks to spelling errors --- I simply have no idea what answer they are trying to express. When this poor communication is demonstrated in conversation as well, I begin to think that these students have difficulty with thinking in a clear and logical manner. And no one wants to have a nurse that is unable to follow or participate in a medical discussion.

The second area of poor prior learning that I see, is basic math skills. I am sure everyone on this forum understands dividing by ten, and you would be stunned by the numbers of pre-nursing college students that can't work with exponents, for example, or compute serial ten fold dilutions.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think insisting on excellence (even in an area like written language, that the student may feel is unimportant), worksheets, and assigning grades fairly must be part of the solution. Also, alerting a student to an area that could use work, as uncomfortable as that is for all concerned, is really in the best interest of the student's ultimate success.

 

[Moonbear]

I am fortunate eneough to teach in Connecticut which compensates teachers better than 48 other states. IF my school offered me the salary that they give to teachers in some other states, I'd say "Why bother?" I'll take my Physics degree and put it to use elsewhere. You get what you pay for, and for decades the pay for teacher throughout this country has been deplorable. Consequently, we still have many deplorable teachers.

I think this is a big part of the problem in many parts of the country. Those who have obtained the education and care enough to be really good teachers take a look at the salaries offered in their states, look at the salaries offered in other industries, and decide not to go into teaching, especially with all the hassles and limitations put on teachers by adminstrations and school boards.

Compound that with a generation of kids who have less responsibility than ever before; who have grown up in a culture of complaint; who have an excuse for everything and nothing is their own fault...

Yes, I also see this as a problem, and it is spreading rampantly at the college level too! I see it as even worse at the college level, because the students are supposed to be adults, but their parents are still doing everything for them, and in complete denial that it could possibly be their child's fault for not taking some responsibility to learn the material they are being taught.

I teach also a class called "Foundations of General Science" in which the students are surprised to find that the Earth goes around the sun. Again, they went to the same schools, same classes as the MIT-bound kids.
"Hold those kids back then" I hear eveyone cry. OK, so, the most difficult students, the ones that cost the most resources, are to stay in school longer, for more years, BUT the school budget is already "way too much" and must be cut. Have you taken that economics course yet? [/RANT]

So, how do we keep those kids from remaining ignorant? If holding them back isn't the answer, what is? Do we need to accept that they aren't going to go to college or need to discuss Thoreau at a cocktail party, so just gear the curriculum to make sure they continue getting the basics of grammar and spelling and arithmetic hammered into them so they can even function in the world with the ability to write a comprehensible letter when they need to dispute something in writing, and the ability to balance their checkbook and understand that maxing out a credit card at 29% interest isn't a good idea? When I was in high school, we really did have classes that addressed things like that for the non-college bound students. I remember laughing and then being shocked when I heard there was a class in the school that taught how to write a check and babysit, and then discovered it was because there really were students who didn't know how to do this. These were things my parents taught me, and I had always assumed all parents taught their kids these things, so it was eye-opening to discover the schools need to compensate an awful lot for lack of parenting.

I don't blame the schools for many of these things, but it never ceases to amaze me how some people can go through life in near oblivion of their surroundings, such as in the example given above. I didn't grow up on a farm, I grew up in the suburbs myself, and I don't recall any classes in school focusing on identifying farm animals, yet I knew the difference between a cow and a goat! I just can't figure out how someone, even growing up in an inner city, doesn't know the difference between a cow and a goat. I'm not talking about a 4-year-old either, but a teenager.

But, I'm noticing a very distinct difference between those who have grown up in cities vs rural areas (and not just on whether they can identify a cow ...the country kids definitely know what a cow is). Out in this more rural part of the country, compared with the city I previously lived in, I don't think the educational level differs much; once you get beyond the university population, the rest of the local people may or may not have a high school diploma or GED, and none of the schools are very good once you get beyond the schools immediately surrounding the university (yes, this is supply and demand...the university community demands a better education for their children than the rest of the surrounding community, so better teachers are hired, plus the students get more help at home, so perform better, etc...for all the reasons mentioned earlier regarding economics; I'm not going to try to compare kids struggling in inner city schools to those with university professors as parents). But, the local people here, in the rural areas, just seem to have more of what I would consider common sense. I see it just in little ways, such as when someone here packs the groceries in the store, they separate things like bread and eggs into a separate bag from the canned goods, or don't mix the meat with the cleaning products...things that irritated me to no end when I lived in the city, to the point of just telling baggers to let me bag my own stuff, or rebagging things while they waited because I wasn't going to walk out the door letting the canned goods squish my bread or chance that the cleaning solutions would leak onto my meat. Maybe growing up in an environment where, if you don't keep your eyes open, you're going to get kicked in the head by a cow teaches something that no school can - paying attention and observing things around you.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have been following the rants on this and that other thread. And I have been holding my breath until now. So as you all might know, I am a public high school teacher. Allow me to open the view to the "other side."
FIrst of all: whenever somebody has not learned something, the fault is not automatically that of "the public schools." OK, someone did not know what volume was. I remember a 1st-year student at UVA who didn't know what an "anvil" was. Some people forget things becuase it is not important to them. This is why I can't speak German anymore.
There are problems, no doubt. Some teachers are bad teachers; some teachers should be kept away from kids at all times; but answer yes or no to the following questions:
"Should we try to hire better teachers?"
"Do teachers get paid too much money?"
You can answer yes or no to either one of these questions (and that is your perfectly valid opinion), but if you answer yes to BOTH of these questions, you need to take a basic course in economics.
I am fortunate eneough to teach in Connecticut which compensates teachers better than 48 other states. IF my school offered me the salary that they give to teachers in some other states, I'd say "Why bother?" I'll take my Physics degree and put it to use elsewhere. You get what you pay for, and for decades the pay for teacher throughout this country has been deplorable. Consequently, we still have many deplorable teachers.
Across this country we do have teachers who are teaching because they can't do anything else (in Connecticut they are disappearing through attrition, but it takes several years). Compound that with a generation of kids who have less responsibility than ever before; who have grown up in a culture of complaint; who have an excuse for everything and nothing is their own fault...
deep breath
Here's an analogy. Imagine there is a town dentist. The teeth of this dentist's patients are clean and white and there are no cavities. The dentist tells the kids to brush three times a day, what not to eat, etc. What a great dentist! THis is a private dentist though, he only allows kids with clean teeth to be his patients. On the other side of town the kids are given lots of candy and junk food by their parents. The parents never make the kids brush their teeth. THe parents don't care if the kid skips a cleaning appointment. This dentist is REQUIRED to take everyone who can't afford the expensive private dentist, but all his patients have rotten teeth. What a lousy dentist, huh?
I teach a class of AP/IB physics. Students of mine have gone to MIT(2!), Harvard, Yale, Brown, BC, BU, UVA, Stanford, on and on and on. THe best schools in the country. THey went throught exactly the same schools as the rest of the students. I teach also a class called "Foundations of General Science" in which the students are surprised to find that the Earth goes around the sun. Again, they went to the same schools, same classes as the MIT-bound kids.
"Hold those kids back then" I hear eveyone cry. OK, so, the most difficult students, the ones that cost the most resources, are to stay in school longer, for more years, BUT the school budget is already "way too much" and must be cut. Have you taken that economics course yet? [/RANT]

So, if schools need more money and teachers need to be paid better, then I say let's do it. Pre-college education is too important to skimp on.

This will ameliorate things, but not solve what is certainly the worse part of the problem. What can be done about the fact of kids going into school without the proper attitude toward education? If they aren't learning this at home, we learn from your dentist analogy, the teachers are up against insurmountable odds.

Do people have any ideas about this?

 

[Chi Meson]

There is no "problem," there are many "problems." I will step forward to admit and offer evidence that one of the problems is a surfeit of lousy teachers. ("surfeit" = "oversupply" but with a distinctively negative connotation). I do believe that many problems will be remedied if we improve the quality of teachers, and the most obvious way of doing this is to offer higher starting salaries. Unfortunately, the old teachers won't allow the new teachers to get more money unless they too get an extra helping of the pie, and quickly the neocons (whose kids go to private schools) decide that school spending is "out of control." I know too many teachers in my own building who don't deserve half of what their get paid, but nearly all of those who fall in this category will retire in the next five years or so. The new teachers coming in are considerably better; I have hope.

 

[Moonbear]

There is no "problem," there are many "problems." I will step forward to admit and offer evidence that one of the problems is a surfeit of lousy teachers. ("surfeit" = "oversupply" but with a distinctively negative connotation). I do believe that many problems will be remedied if we improve the quality of teachers, and the most obvious way of doing this is to offer higher starting salaries. Unfortunately, the old teachers won't allow the new teachers to get more money unless they too get an extra helping of the pie, and quickly the neocons (whose kids go to private schools) decide that school spending is "out of control." I know too many teachers in my own building who don't deserve half of what their get paid, but nearly all of those who fall in this category will retire in the next five years or so. The new teachers coming in are considerably better; I have hope.

Okay, realizing this would probably never get past the unions, who too often seem in the business of protecting the lousy teachers more than supporting the good ones, what if the salary structure were changed that you only received pay increases based on merit. Give a standardized, district-wide, year-end exam in each subject and raise salaries based on percentages of students passing that exam within score ranges (not just pass or fail, but look at the scores the students get). Or, better yet, do a pre-test at the beginning of the year and post-test at the end, and base raises on student improvement (a better measure than raw scores since students start out and different levels and the real measure of teaching is whether students improved during the year). There would need to be some adjustment for the classes being taught, because the teacher with all honors students isn't necessarily teaching less than the one who has the special education classes, even though the honors students will show more improvement than special ed students. Or have the teachers take the exams, and have their skills tested from time to time. Don't let them get tenure or the next pay step if they don't pass proficiency in their own subject and demonstrate good understanding of educational methods.

I may have told this story a while ago, but I was on a flight once with a honeymooning teacher. She was writing her thank-you notes while on the plane, and using her spell-checker or asking her husband how to spell nearly every other word (and you know nobody uses very difficult to spell words when writing thank-you notes). To me, to have such a low level of proficiency in spelling says she should never have been a teacher; she shouldn't have even passed high school English herself. So, how does someone like that end up being hired as a teacher?

 

[zoobyshoe]

When this poor communication is demonstrated in conversation as well, I begin to think that these students have difficulty with thinking in a clear and logical manner. And no one wants to have a nurse that is unable to follow or participate in a medical discussion.

I'm glad you brought this up. The inability to write clearly and properly is a sure sign of an inability to think clearly and logically. Incoherent writing and speech calls a person's whole sense of judgement into serious question. I find it alarming when someone performing some service for me can't describe things to me clearly. It almost always means they don't have it sorted out in their own mind. I don't want someone like that working on my car much less performing medical proceedures on me.

 

[fourier jr]

has everyone seen the ebonics version of the lord's prayer?

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
Thy will be done
On Earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever.
-- Amen

Yo, Big Daddy upstairs,
You be chillin,
So be yo hood.
You be sayin it, I be doing it
In this here hood and yo's.
Gimme some eats,
And cut me some slack,
Sos I be doing it to dem dat diss me.
Don't be pushing me into no jive,
And keep dem Crips away.
'Cause you always be da Man.
-- Aaa-mén

 

[Pengwuino]

Oh god my niece said some sort of ebonics version of Grace a few months ago... man that pissed me off to no end.

As for the subject... I don't blame the teachers... I REALLY blame the administration. I mean any parent whos kid won't move up to the third grade can just walk up to the principle and say "you're going to hurt his feelings!" and the Principle won't say a word! (Probably to avoid a lawsuit).

Hell screw the administration, it's the parents! Suck it up, you're a bad parent and your kid is an idiot and you did nothing to stop it or help out (most of the time), your kid will now be held back. To add to that, if he just happens to possibly be sad about it 15 years later when he's graduating with a college degree (thanks to being held back and actually learning) as opposed to being a HS drop out, you can direct your anger entirely at me, i will take the worlds anger personally.

 

[Chi Meson]

I would like to offer my suggestion: public education should be "free" for a limited time. You get 12 years of it. After that, you pay.

 

[Pengwuino]

I would like to offer my suggestion: public education should be "free" for a limited time. You get 12 years of it. After that, you pay.

haha yes! And make it cost a lot. If you don't progress... then your parents have some incentive to help you.

 

[Chi Meson]

On the subject of Ebonics, a lot of speculation and lies have surrounded that ill-fated movement. The reality is, however, that in many inner-cities the people there speak an unrecognizable dialect of english. THe ebonics movement was simply to recognize that these kids are growing up not speaking the same language as the books they are supposed to be learning to read. There was no attempt to teach this "as a language" but rather, to recognize that the kids must be taught just as though they were learning "proper" english as a second language. Rush Limbaugh latched onto it with his usual oversimplificating-liberals-are-destroying-the-country fangs, Tacked on a few fabrications and hyperboles, and the movement never recovered. It is now the butt of low-brow, veiled-racist jokes.

 

[sid_galt]

haha yes! And make it cost a lot. If you don't progress... then your parents have some incentive to help you.

School vouchers are a viable idea. The tax money that you pay into the useless public education system will be sent to your private school instead.

Besides it isn't like public education is doing any wonders.

 

[zoobyshoe]

THe ebonics movement was simply to recognize that these kids are growing up not speaking the same language as the books they are supposed to be learning to read. There was no attempt to teach this "as a language" but rather, to recognize that the kids must be taught just as though they were learning "proper" english as a second language.

If this is the case, it sounds like it was a good idea.

 

[Moonbear]

I would like to offer my suggestion: public education should be "free" for a limited time. You get 12 years of it. After that, you pay.

On the surface, it sounds like a good idea; give people a financial incentive to pass. Though, the more likely outcome would be that more kids would just drop out if they couldn't afford it and their parents didn't care enough to make it a priority sooner.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The problem with ebonics is twofold in my opinion. Firstly, it is a valid language and is a distinct derivative of English in the sense of Linguistics. Secondly, I don't hear a national outcry to ban the use of "ya'll" in southern school systems or making new englanders pronounce the r's on the end of words ("pahk you cah in Hahvahd yahd"- translated as- park your car in Harvard Yard). These regional variations get slowly integrated into the national mindset and accepted gradually. By the time kids in middle school are having children, the issue of ebonics will no longer be an issue (I think). How do you decide what is the correct version of a language that can have extreme variation on a very small scale? If you doubt this- go to Wisconsin. Stay in Green Bay for a couple days- you will begin to see the local dialect in action. Then go to a little town called Two Rivers which is 20 miles away. This area has an insane accent and pronounciation scheme that is clearly distinct from the local area and the rest of the state. If while you are there, and you ask them what town you are in, I would bet you good money you wouldn't understand what came out of their mouth corresponded to Two Rivers. So who decideds what is proper grammer, prounciation, etc. in a country that does not have a national language? (And if our forefathers would have decided on one, there would have been a good chance it would German).

In person my english skills are definitely lacking. Even here when I type out my posts I'm sure I make several grammatical and spelling errors, though I don't really care. At my job though when I type out reports they are very nearly perfect as opposed to about half of my co-workers who can not accomplish this verbally OR written. These are reports that could easily wind up being used for legal purposes. I wonder how quickly most of the ones that come out of my department would be tossed due to poor composition and grammar if they were to be presented in court.

 

[Chi Meson]

School vouchers are a viable idea. The tax money that you pay into the useless public education system will be sent to your private school instead.
Besides it isn't like public education is doing any wonders.

This would be fine, as long as the private schools DO NOT get to pick and choose whom to let in. If you take public funds, then you get all of the public.

Watch then how good those private schools really are.

 

[Moonbear]

This would be fine, as long as the private schools DO NOT get to pick and choose whom to let in. If you take public funds, then you get all of the public.
Watch then how good those private schools really are.

I agree. Private schools only appear better because they can select the best students, and refuse all the special education students. There's also an economic flaw to the idea of vouchers, and that's that the money used for public education is not distributed evenly on a per student basis. A much higher percentage goes toward the special education/special needs students who have to be accommodated and require smaller class sizes, individual aides, special equipment, etc. It also covers costs such as building maintenance, which won't change if you have 10 students or 1000 students in that school, removing some of the funds just raises the per-student cost for the remaining students, which of course would not be economicaly viable. If you were to truly give a student a voucher for the actual cost of their individual education in a public school, not maintenance of the school building, or cost of shared supplies, unless they were a special education student, it would be considerably less than private school tuition. Afterall, private schools are in the business of making a profit. Further, if you use public funds for private schools, they are no longer private; they then will have to adhere to the same non-discrimination, separation of religion rules that public schools must adhere to if tax money is funding them.