# Perpetual Motion Machine Question

• TheConfronter
In summary, perpetual motion machines are impossible under the laws of thermodynamics and the rules of mainstream science. Any attempt to create such a machine would ultimately fail due to losses and the impossibility of achieving > 100% efficiency. This topic is banned on Physics Forums due to the amount of time and effort wasted discussing it and the lack of evidence or scientific basis for its existence.

#### TheConfronter

Say you had a spring with a magnet on top(stuck to the spring). And when the spring is pushed down, in which it will go back up, it will go near another magnet, pushing it down. Pushing it down makes it go back up. Would this work?

The problem is that there is air resistance and some inelasticity in the spring (tendency to turn some of the potential energy of the spring into heat rather than kinetic energy when it springs back). At some level of compression, the upward force of the spring exactly cancels the downward force of the other magnet, creating 0 force. The contraption will eventually settle down into this state.

:grumpy: You are kidding. I have the spring long enough so when the magnet pushes it down, it won't go immediately up.

You may want to have a bit more patience, 6 minutes isn't a very long time to expect a response in.

Basically everything LE said.

I'll add that even if there were no losses what so ever (no resistance at all) the best you would have is a 100% efficient system - which would keep itself going forever. The moment you try to use it to drive something (adding resistance) efficiency drops, causing the machine to eventually stop.

This topic is banned on PF. That should tell you all you need to know.

TheConfronter said:
:grumpy: You are kidding. I have the spring long enough so when the magnet pushes it down, it won't go immediately up.

So what?

There will be a 'sweet spot' on any system like this where magnet force downwards = spring force upwards. Eventually, thanks to losses the system will come to rest at this point.

Not kidding. Basically, there is potential energy, kinetic energy, and thermal energy.
The second law of thermodynamics essentially means that if you create any thermal energy at all, there is no way to convert it back to another form of energy in a cyclic way with no outside intervention.

To convert thermal energy to work you will either need some source of energy from the outside, some object at a lower temperature than your system to take in heat, or some kind of 'fuel' in your system that will run out eventually.

Why is this topic banned?

TheConfronter said:
Why is this topic banned?

Perpetual Motion Machines are impossible under the laws of thermodynamics - specifically the 2nd law.

TheConfronter said:
Why is this topic banned?

In the current understanding of science, perpetual motion is not possible. Physics Forums rules state that only mainstream science is allowed to be discussed in the forums unless you go to the Skeptecism and Debunking area. If this rule isn't followed, the forum would quickly be swamped in posts that have nothing to do with normal science.

Edit: Just FYI, it isn't that the 2nd law itself prohibits perpetual motion, it's that it simply doesn't work. The 2nd law is merely an observation on how the universe works. WE aren't keeping it from working, the laws or rules or whatever of the universe are.

Your definition of impossible is another mans definition of challenging. Everything is impossible until someone does it. Impossible is a big term built by small people that just want to come up with an explanation of things they can't come up with.

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TheConfronter said:
Your definition of impossible is another mans definition of challenging. Everything is impossible until someone does it. Impossible is a big term built by small people that just want to come up with an explanation of things they can't come up with.

No, in this case impossible is impossible.

Even if you could get rid of all losses you would have a 100% efficient machine - this would only sustain itself, it wouldn't be able to drive anything - because that would be a resistance loss.

To sustain itself and drive another device would require > 100% efficiency. That would machine the machine would have to create energy - that is impossible.

Impossible is impossible? You have no actual proof behind your statement. There are NO impossibilities. String theory allows for endless possibilities.

TheConfronter said:
Impossible is impossible? You have no actual proof behind your statement. There are NO impossibilities. String theory allows for endless possibilities.

Remove my heart and lungs, provide me no external life support and survival my friend, is impossible.

So now we've clarified impossible, let's drop the rubbish.

Your posts are the reason PMM are banned on PF. It is impossible whether you like it or not and my previous post explains why that is so.

But just to restate it, energy cannot be created, therefore you cannot have a device work at > 100% efficiency.

TheConfronter said:
Impossible is impossible? You have no actual proof behind your statement. There are NO impossibilities. String theory allows for endless possibilities.

This is why we have that rule. Under the view of mainstream science, perpetual motion is NOT possible. We have never ever observed anything that would make us believe that it is and have observed literally hundreds of thousands of things that make us think that it is NOT possible. That's the key here. If perpetual motion were possible, it would violate how the universe works as we have observed it. He have zero reason to think it is possible and every reason to think that it is not possible.

Define survival. Your brain would still be working, and if you smash the brain the atoms and molecules still remain. And how do you know it not possible? Have your heart and lungs been removed?

TheConfronter said:
Define survival. Your brain would still be working, and if you smash the brain the atoms and molecules still remain. And how do you know it not possible? Have your heart and lungs been removed?

It isn't possible because of the thousands of people we have witnessed to die after having heart or lung injuries.

TheConfronter said:
Why is this topic banned?

This is why it is banned. Do you see how much time you've wasted for all of these people? They were trying to help you, but you wouldn't listen. Waste of time.

## 1. What is a Perpetual Motion Machine?

A Perpetual Motion Machine is a hypothetical device that can continue to operate indefinitely without any external energy source. It is able to produce more energy than it consumes, violating the fundamental principles of thermodynamics.

## 2. Is it possible to create a Perpetual Motion Machine?

No, it is not possible to create a Perpetual Motion Machine. The laws of thermodynamics state that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. Therefore, a machine that produces more energy than it consumes is impossible.

## 3. Why do people still try to create Perpetual Motion Machines?

Some people are still fascinated with the idea of a Perpetual Motion Machine and believe that it is possible to find a loophole in the laws of thermodynamics. Others may simply be trying to deceive others for financial gain.

## 4. Have any Perpetual Motion Machines ever been created?

No, there has never been a successful Perpetual Motion Machine. Many people have claimed to have created one, but upon closer examination, it is always found to be powered by an external energy source or a hidden power source.

## 5. What are the consequences of trying to create a Perpetual Motion Machine?

There are no major consequences for trying to create a Perpetual Motion Machine, other than wasting time and resources. However, promoting false claims of a working Perpetual Motion Machine can harm the scientific community's credibility and spread misinformation.