Pet Peeves of your native language

[Stephen Tashi]

But it's hard to imagine a consonant becoming a vowel.

Well, there are words ending in "le", such as "able", "table", "probable" etc. A vowel and consonant seem to change places. The "l" is sounded like "e" or "u" and the "e" is sounded like an "l".

 

[pinball1970]

Peeves in English - What a difference a single letter makes!

wretched - two syllables, accent on first
retched - one syllable

A very good example and with a further drop of a consonant this is etched on my mind

 

[fresh_42]

There are bound to be some German terms in scientific English. One that sticks out is 'eigen-', as in the awkward set of hybrids eigenvalue, eigenvector, eigenfunction etc. You occasionally see attempts at an English version like "proper-" "self-" or "auto-" even going back a long way, but they have not taken. I suspect they will in the end. Like you used to see in texts 'gegen-' as in 'gegen ion' now totally supplanted by 'counter-'.

I don't think so. The attempts are as old as the word is, i.e. more than a century by now. And if it didn't happen up to now, why should it happen at all? Also its status as hybrid is a bit artificial, because the German counterparts are Eigenwert (Wert=value), Eigenraum (Raum=space), Eigenvektor and Eigenfunktion, i.e. it is a literal adjustment.

Eigen fits better than proper, which is closest to its translation: Eigenschaft = property. But proper has been taken already by 'clean' and by 'not fake', so you would add a seemingly fourth meaning, although it factually is its first and forgotten (?) proper meaning of 'belongs to'. In addition it is easy to pronounce by English speakers: ighen, which I suppose is the real reason it made it into science.

However, there are also dreibein, vierbein and ansatz.

 

[fresh_42]

Well, there are words ending in "le", such as "able", "table", "probable" etc. A vowel and consonant seem to change places. The "l" is sounded like "e" or "u" and the "e" is sounded like an "l".

And this is really mean! I regularly write fibre instead of fiber because of this strange behavior elsewhere.

 

[fresh_42]

How do non-native speakers of US English feel about all its idioms? - for example, "pet peeve".

When I sense that I'm communicating with a non-native speaker, I tried to avoid idioms. However, this makes what I write sound unnatural.

This is actually the hardest part. I desperately miss all the short idioms which I do not know in English and which makes 90% of daily communication. E.g. we can say "wohl" (well) to mean yes with emphasis, or "doch" which is missing in English, meaning yes as an answer to no. The Hungarian say "but yes". So these many tiny phrases which constitutes communication can only be learned by acclimation and not by translation. I often wonder how a phrase in an American movie might have been in the original and I must admit that I have no idea, since what I would have said didn't fit the syllables. The German version can't be literally translated, so the English version remains unknown to me.

 

[pinball1970]

German isn't English either, but the list of German words in English is really long!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_expressions_in_English

This is actually the hardest part. I desperately miss all the short idioms which I do not know in English and which makes 90% of daily communication. E.g. we can say "wohl" (well) to mean yes with emphasis, or "doch" which is missing in English, meaning yes as an answer to no.

We have this too, please Google 'Yes we have no bananas.'

 

[fresh_42]

We have this too, please Google 'Yes we have no bananas.'

And I thought you had no milk since 1966.

 

[sysprog]

Eigen fits better than proper, which is closest to its translation: Eigenschaft = property. But proper has been taken already by 'clean' and by 'not fake', so you would add a seemingly fourth meaning, although it factually is its first and forgotten (?) proper meaning of 'belongs to'. In addition it is easy to pronounce by English speakers: ighen, which I suppose is the real reason it made it into science.

The German 'eigen' is well-translated as 'own', as in 'sein eigenes arm' = 'his own arm'; however, as an emergent word, 'own' is etymologically clumsy to use as a prefix, and reverting to one of the Old English-Saxon-Frisian-Norse progenitors of both 'eigen' and 'own', such as 'agan' or 'egan' is unnecessary when the modern German version is almost unchanged from the meaning-equivalents in those ancestor tongues, and means exactly what is wanted, so adopting it into modern English directly seems appropriate. Some may see the prepending of a German prefix to a word of Latin origin as jarring; however, it's not at all unusual in modern English.

 

[fresh_42]

At the start of the 20th century, Hilbert studied the eigenvalues of integral operators by viewing the operators as infinite matrices. He was the first to use the German word eigen, which means "own", to denote eigenvalues and eigenvectors in 1904, though he may have been following a related usage by Helmholtz. For some time, the standard term in English was "proper value", but the more distinctive term "eigenvalue" is standard today.

(Wikipedia)
So if it didn't change then, it is unlikely it will now.

There is also a slightly different meaning nowadays between eigen and own. Own is clearly used to express possession today, whereas eigen has the connotation of a property. E.g. "Es war ihm eigen, dass er morgens betete." means "It was his habit that he prayed in the morning." This connotation isn't transported by own, but it reflects what eigen means: a certain habit.

 

[pinball1970]

And I thought you had no milk since 1966.

Yeah I never quite knew what he meant when I listened on my mum's radio as a young child.
No milk today? We have no milk OR no milk today please Mr milkman.
The tune was great so I never delved too much as a kid.

That was actually written by Graham Gouldman, later from 10CC, a Mancunian (actually Salford but close enough)
English and all its pet peeves, is a walk in the park compared to local language accents and dialects.
That is another topic thread though I think.

 

[fresh_42]

English and all its pet peeves, is a walk in the park compared to local language accents and dialects.
That is another topic thread though I think.

Oh yeah. I remember an interview on British tv when I was eighteen. I only knew my school's English and they interviewed - I think - a forward from Liverpool (gratulations by the way). Well, not-a-single-word.

 

[pinball1970]

Oh yeah. I remember an interview on British tv when I was eighteen. I only knew my school's English and they interviewed - I think - a forward from Liverpool (gratulations by the way). Well, not-a-single-word.

It is CONgratulations actually fresh and the plaudits should be reserved for our friends in Merseyside, I am not of that particular geography.
I am sure Mark 44 will cite proper use of 'gratulations' I do not care as I am British and know what is proper English. (Tongue in cheek- I am not keen on emojis)

 

[fresh_42]

It is CONgratulations actually fresh and the plaudits should be reserved for our friends in Merseyside, I am not of that particular geography.

United or City?

 

[sysprog]

There is also a slightly different meaning nowadays between eigen and own. Own is clearly used to express possession today, whereas eigen has the connotation of a property. E.g. "Es war ihm eigen, dass er morgens betete." means "It was his habit that he prayed in the morning." This connotation isn't transported by own, but it reflects what eigen means: a certain habit.

Ownership is distinct from possession. Whatever is my own belongs to me, but I can possess, i.e. have in my possession, that which belongs to another, i.e is another's own. A renter doesn't own the property he rents, but he possesses it, while it's owner doesn't possesses it, but still owns it. Own can also mean aver, as in 'though he wasn't there at that time, he later owned that he was'.

For the meaning of 'eigen' that you're distinguishing as 'habit', the latter word in English comes from the Latin verb 'habere', to have as one's own in the sense of to consist of, which is a cognate of the German verb 'haben', (the English word 'have' is more closely related to German 'kapieren'). The word 'custom' with the meaning of 'habit' in the sense to which you allude, is akin to Latin 'suus', one's own.

 

[fresh_42]

Ownership is distinct from possession. Whatever is my own belongs to me, but I can possess, i.e. have in my possession, that which belongs to another, i.e is another's own. A renter doesn't own the property he rents, but he possesses it, while it's owner doesn't possesses it, but still owns it. Own can also mean aver, as in 'though he wasn't there at that time, he later owned that he was'.

This is nit picking and jural. To own is then even stronger than to possess. And eigen is not own! There are certainly relations, as Eigentum is ownership, but Eigenschaft is property, and Eigenheit habit. These all show that eigen is far more variable than own or proper is. And it has a clear tendency towards a special property which makes it best fit for eigenvalues. A vector doesn't own his eigenvalue, nor is it a proper value. This would immediately raise the question about improper values.

For the meaning of 'eigen' that you're distinguishing as 'habit', the latter word in English comes from the Latin verb 'habere', to have as one's own in the sense of to consist of, which is a cognate of the German verb 'haben', (the English word 'have' is more closely related to German 'kapieren'). The word 'custom' with the meaning of 'habit' in the sense to which you allude, is akin to Latin 'suus', one's own.

These might be true, but words change their meaning over centuries. You cannot apply their original meaning one-to-one.

 

[pinball1970]

United or City?

Man u Fresh, it's been a difficult time for us recently...
Anyway something to celebrate though regarding the English language, I think that English football fans have so much more to call on in terms of song lyrics, prose, poetry, irony and often spontaneous humour.
They have a bad reputation on the whole but credit where it's due, they come up with some witty stuff and that is down to the language they have been immersed in since kids.
It's not a peeve it's a praise and I accept this so the mods should let this little one slide I think.

 

[fresh_42]

They have a bad reputation on the whole

I'm afraid to say, but if you ever saw English fans abroad and the next day Scottish ... I know whom I'd prefer to party with.

 

[sysprog]

To own is then even stronger than to possess.

As verbs, own is abstract, and possesses is physical.

And eigen is not own!

Is 'sehr eigenes arm' = 'his own arm' not correct?

There are certainly relations, as Eigentum is ownership, but Eigenschaft is property,
and Eigenheit habit.

In each of those words, 'eigen' contributes some sense of 'own', and each could be anglicized by 'own' prepended to a suffix: 'eigentum' ≈ 'owndom', 'eigenschaft' ≈ 'ownship', 'eigenheit' ≈ 'ownhood'.

These all show that eigen is far more variable than own or proper is.

I would own that contention to be founded on little more than an impropriation to yourself of a declaratory fiat on the matter.

And it has a clear tendency towards a special property which makes it best fit for eigenvalues.

I wouldn't disagree with the claim that it's a good choice.

A vector doesn't own his eigenvalue, nor is it a proper value.

In English, we wouldn't say of a thing that it owns (verb) anything, but we could refer to its own (adjective) characteristic value (not 'his own', because mathematical objects, quite properly (in the sense of 'rightfully') in my (own) opinion, don't have gender in English).

This would immediately raise the question about improper values.

Not if we don't improperly (i.e incorrectly in this instance) use the word 'proper' intransitively, and say instead that the value 'is proper to it', meaning 'belongs to it' or (more reachingly) 'is characteristic of it'.

These might be true, but words change their meaning over centuries. You cannot apply their original meaning one-to-one.

Of course that's true; however, ancestor languages being static, except perhaps when a previously lost ancient document is discovered, it is not wrong for us to consult the meanings of the ancient root words when constructing words for newly discovered characteristics.

 

[pinball1970]

I'm afraid to say, but if you ever saw English fans abroad and the next day Scottish ... I know whom I'd prefer to party with.

Not my experience when I encountered them in my city unfortunately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_UEFA_Cup_Final_riots
On the whole I am not a fan of football mentality besides the amusing songs.

 

[gmax137]

The talk about math (eigen...) and milk brought this one to mind. Why do we say, "this milk is homogenized" or "the population is homogeneous," but in (every) math class I ever was in, the differential equation is homogeneous (ho-mo-GEE-knee-us)? That always bugged me, but when I pronounced it hum-ODGE-in-us I got nothing but funny looks by everyone. After a few tries, I just went along with the ho-mo-GEE-knee-us crowd.

 

[sysprog]

The talk about math (eigen...) and milk brought this one to mind. Why do we say, "this milk is homogenized" or "the population is homogeneous," but in (every) math class I ever was in, the differential equation is homogeneous (ho-mo-GEE-knee-us)? That always bugged me, but when I pronounced it hum-ODGE-in-us I got nothing but funny looks by everyone. After a few tries, I just went along with the ho-mo-GEE-knee-us crowd.

The word 'homogenized' (the pronunciations hō-ˈmä-jə- nīzd or hə-ˈmä-jə- nīzd are correct for that word) refers to something that started out inhomogenous (milk with the cream floating on top) having been later subjected to a process by which it becomes homogenous (micro-mixed to a stable consistency that does not allow the cream to spontaneously re-agglomerate at the top, as simply shaking a bottle of unhomogenized milk would allow).

The words 'homogenous' and 'homogeneous' regarding mixtures are sometimes used interchangeably, but I've never seen 'homogenous' used in mathematics.

The pronunciations hō-ˈmä-jə-nəs or hə-ˈmä-jə-nəs are correct for 'homogenous', but not for 'homogeneous', for which the pronunciations hō-mə-ˈjē-nē-əs, hō-mō-ˈjē-nē-əs, or more rarely, -ˈjēn-yəs are correct.

 

[gmax137]

so you're saying these are two different words!? well I learn something new every day. thanks!

 

[sysprog]

so you're saying these are two different words!? well I learn something new every day. thanks!

They're two closely related words that historically have been sometimes distinguished and sometimes conflated. Depending upon context, they could be used or interpreted as distinct words, or as different spellings of the same word, sometimes with slightly different emphasis. For example, the word 'homogenous' was used in biology to mean having apparently related characteristics, while in the argots of various industries, it was, and in some cases still is, used instead of 'homogeneous', with the same or almost the same meaning of uniform consistency of a composite material.

 

[DrClaude]

How do non-native speakers of US English feel about all its idioms? - for example, "pet peeve".

This reminds me of a book of illustrated idioms in French and English. You would have for instance "It's raining cats and dogs," with a drawing of cats and dogs falling down, and on the facing page you would have "Il pleut des cordes," with ropes "raining" down. Was very funny!

When I sense that I'm communicating with a non-native speaker, I tried to avoid idioms. However, this makes what I write sound unnatural.

Isn't it also a problem that idioms can be quite regional? Brits and Americans don't always use the same idioms.

Generally, I get the feeling that Americans speak much more in metaphors and idioms than other people. Am I wrong?

 

[sysprog]

Generally, I get the feeling that Americans speak much more in metaphors and idioms than other people. Am I wrong?

Could that impression be (at least partially) due to a tendency to take less notice of more locally (and consequently more frequently and familiarly) encountered examples?

 

[DrClaude]

Could that impression be (at least partially) due to a tendency to take less notice of more locally (and consequently more frequently and familiarly) encountered examples?

Not exactly. I am well-versed in colloquial American English and my observation comes from having to often explain to my kids things they read in books or hear in movies.

 

[sysprog]

Not exactly. I am well-versed in colloquial American English and my observation comes from having to often explain to my kids things they read in books or hear in movies.

Perhaps your kids aren't as well-versed in US English as you are, and the dynamic I suggested might apply to them, and thereby influence your perspective?

 

[pinball1970]

This reminds me of a book of illustrated idioms in French and English. You would have for instance "It's raining cats and dogs," with a drawing of cats and dogs falling down, and on the facing page you would have "Il pleut des cordes," with ropes "raining" down. Was very funny!
Isn't it also a problem that idioms can be quite regional? Brits and Americans don't always use the same idioms.

Generally, I get the feeling that Americans speak much more in metaphors and idioms than other people. Am I wrong?

I regularly speak to Americans and we often have to explain what we each mean in conversation. Sayings I think are well known, 'young pup' was one when I was referring to my niece, she had no idea I just meant when she was very young. The same American lady also requested that I did not 'dog' her on her YouTube page. This simply means to be nasty (we were discussing the evidence for evolution as she was a creationist, I had not been nasty just qualify she just wanted assurances!)
Dogged is stoic, to dog someone would be following? Tracking? A dog's dinner is a mess, a dog is a bad thing or attempt, a dog if it is a person is slang for unattractive. I would never associate 'dog''with being nasty.

 

[sysprog]

@pinball1970 "Don't be lookin' the dog at me" means don't stare confrontationally at me -- have you heard that one?

 

[DrClaude]

I regularly speak to Americans and we often have to explain what we each mean in conversation. Sayings I think are well known, 'young pup' was one when I was referring to my niece, she had no idea I just meant when she was very young. The same American lady also requested that I did not 'dog' her on her YouTube page. This simply means to be nasty (we were discussing the evidence for evolution as she was a creationist, I had not been nasty just qualify she just wanted assurances!)
Dogged is stoic, to dog someone would be following? Tracking? A dog's dinner is a mess, a dog is a bad thing or attempt, a dog if it is a person is slang for unattractive. I would never associate 'dog''with being nasty.

Was she barking up the wrong tree? Or is this a case of the tail wagging the dog? Or of man bites dog? Was this during the dogs days of summer?