Poll: Flying Snakes in "Credibility of Greek Thinkers

[Jonathan]

I wanted to know what the general consensus was on the nature of the flying snakes talked about in the Credibility of Greek Thinkers thread. IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE 'CREDIBILITY OF GREEK THINKERS' THREAD YET, DON'T VOTE UNTIL YOU HAVE. Thank You!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Other: Mutated gliding snakes (common reptiles) that got killed off by the spice collectors.

 

[Jonathan]

You still misunderstand Zoobyshoe! They weren't killed off by spice collectors because the spice collectors liked having them in the frankincense groves, the flying snakes kept out thevies. The Egyptian ibises, and Egyptian people too, killed them off, for food and distaste, respectivly. Boy, oh boy, I've explained this two or three times! No one else seems to be confused on this.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Why did they attack thieves but not spice collectors?

 

[Jonathan]

I don't know that they didn't attack the spice collectors now and then, the book didn't say that one way or another. It was my assumption that after awhile these spice collectors would notice themselves be attacked , so what they probably did (and not tell many people, kind of a 'trade secret') was make several smokey torches of frankincense and toss them into the groves to smoke out the flying snakes, and then light more and more until they had a nice sized area of stinky smoke filled grove and no flying snakes. Most of that is speculation, but I do know that they did do some sort of frankincense smoking ritual to get the flying snakes to leave, because the book specifically said that.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Johnathan,

I went back and reread the original report of the Herodotus and I see now that I had, somehow, jumped to the conclusion that anyone attempting to collect the frankincense was considered a thief, as if it were simply, generally a "taboo" thing to do.

I see, now, you didn't say this. Despite my best intentions, my mind instantly formed connections with situations I've read about many times in Polynesian and Native American culture, where doing certain things is made 'Taboo" for more religious reasons than for the sake of protecting property rights.

Although you pointed out I had misread it earlier, I continued to misinterpret, and thought you were pointing out that I had neglected to pay attention to the fact Herodotus spoke of these snakes in connection with two distinct locations. I thought this was in objection to my suggestion they may only have evolved in one isolated part of the world before being wiped out.

Instead I see you were obecting to my assmption they might have been wiped out by people who wanted to collect the spice.

-Zooby

 

[Jonathan]

LOL!
How would the Israelites have gotten the frankincense for the Temple if the frankincense collectors thought it taboo to collect the frankincense?! LOL!

Back to the topic though, I think it rather interesting that the data seems (thought there are only, what, four votes?) to suggest that people would rather believe today's mainstream theories than accept a somewhat incredible 2500yo eyewitness report to be true. Not to mention the impeccabiltiy of the source, since he managed to faithfully describe the Great Pyamids (guess where), the Hanging Garden (Babylon), the Colossus (Rhodes), the Pharos (a big lighthouse, Alexandria, Egypt), the Tomb of Mausoleum (that's where we get that word from), etc. (I think the other two are the Parthenon and the Temple of Zeus, but should they really count as wonders?, he may have been swayed by his nationality there .) This is most interesting when one takes into account the fact that the majority of people who voted on my other poll said the the Greek thinkers were fairly to very credible.
PS: Sorry Zoobyshoe, it didn't occur to me that if I put a big edit on like this that it may make this thread confusing, you managed to post before I finished editing.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Sounds like a black market situation. Who would the thieves be selling it to? And why are you so certain the Israelites didn't have their own Frankincense groves somewhere?

 

[Jonathan]

The theives would sell to anyone who would buy. I'm pretty sure the Israelites didn't have their own groves, they werre big consumers of frankincense and if I remember correctly they traded the Arabian states for theirs. The Arabian states were rich, and I sure that's part to the reason.

 

[Jonathan]

Here we go, it in the part about 'iron age period onwards':
http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Arabia.html
If you've read the Bible I'm sure you'll remember the Queen of Sheba?
EDIT: Wait I just found this, it is better:
http://www.asiatour.com/oman/e-01land/eo-lan13_a.htm

 

[Jonathan]

How can 60% (3) of you think they didn't even exist? Do you think Herodotus just went around making thinks up all day? We know his name because he's famous, and not because he wrote fiction writer.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, now that you've removed the misconception I had about how they might have been wiped out, I'm starting to have doubts about them myself. You must go there and find one of these pits full of their skeletons, Johnathan. What happened to the flying snakes of the Frankincense groves? Where are they today?

 

[Jonathan]

I haven't the foggiest idea. My point is that the claim of one reputable person should mean more. When did I disprove that they were wiped out? Not by spice collectors surely, but the Egyptians didn't like them and the ibises ate them, that should be enough for something to go extinct, it is today. Do you really think I can go to Egypt/Arabia? I don't know where the pits are, there could be buildings over them now! There may never have been pits for all I know! They could have done anything with the bodies!
It occurs to me now that the fact that no one has found heiroglyphics with flying snakes in them is a little odd, considering that the Egyptians had everything from beast/human hybrids to a light bulb to a helicopter in those carvings. (Have you seen the light bulb; helicopter carvings? VERY creepy...What else in the world could they be? Carving isn't easy, to put something like that in there means something. I've seen them myself, I can't think of anything else that 'helicopter' could be. I think I'll start a thread on this...)

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Jonathan

When did I disprove that they were wiped out?

When did I say you had?Do not try to distract me with light bulbs and helicopters. If Herodotus' flying snakes existed then there are bones, somewhere. It took that famous guy, what's-his-name, years to find that old city, so the riddle of the flying snakes may be the work of a lifetime. Herodotus' reputation is at stake. Never mind light bulbs and helicopters.

 

[Jonathan]

Sorry, I misread your post. Anyway, I can't tell what you're talking about in your second paragraph. I'm not trying to distract you, I made a valid point against the existence of these snakes and then digressed a little. I was hoping that maybe someone would say they agree or maybe that they'd say they've seen carvings of flying snakes, just something, I want more evidence without having to go to Egypt. Why are you so concerned with Herodotus' credibility? Are you being sarcastic?
BTW I was going to post that thread on light bulbs, etc., but I got distracted, but I will one of these days.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Jonathan Why are you so concerned with Herodotus' credibility? Are you being sarcastic?

I'm not so concerned about it. I thought you were. If you are, find the snake bones. Finding or not finding carvings of flying snakes means nothing. Light bulbs and helicopters are a completely separate issue.

 

[Jonathan]

Well, slightly, but not enough to go to Egypt. Finding carvings would prove that they may have existed, as opposed to my previous argument where I point out that if they existed they would certaintly have been in the carvings, since the Egyptians carved everything else there is.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I understood your point about carvings of flying snakes, but I don't buy that finding a carving like that would constitute anything but fuel for speculation. The Egyptians carved people with animal heads, and animals with people heads. They carved things that appear to be quite real: birds, people, locusts, etc., but this doesn't make the sphinx credible as a thing that actually existed.

When all is said and done, you have to ask yourself what difference it would really make if the flying snakes with batlike wings ever actually existed. I think it would be very interesting in terms of evolution, and in terms of Herodotus' credibility, but any attempt to jump from there to belief in the Loch Ness Monster or dinosaurs in present day Africa would be foolhardy. If Nessie exists, it is because she exists, not because of the relative credibility of witness reports.

-Zooby

 

[Jonathan]

Yes, that is what I meant, that finding carvings of bat/snakes wouldn't really say anything, its the lack of these carvings that is striking. They carved so many things, real and not, that for the bat/snakes to not be in them is a very good indicator of the snakes having never existed.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Jonathan They carved so many things, real and not, that for the bat/snakes to not be in them is a very good indicator of the snakes having never existed.

That is possible. One way to check would be to see if you can find any other things known to exist during those times that they didn't carve. Where does the all important camel, mentioned in your links about the spice trade, figure in? Were the pyramid builders of Egypt all done by the time it came into common use?

 

[Jonathan]

I don't know, that's a good point, though it could be that they didn't carve mundane animals .