Position vs. time graph and the derivative

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation of motion in position vs. time graphs, particularly when considering motion in two or three dimensions. Participants explore how to visualize and understand the relationship between position, velocity, and derivatives in multi-dimensional contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the position vs. time graph for one-dimensional motion and seeks clarification on how this extends to two or three dimensions.
  • Another participant explains that position and velocity in space are vector quantities with three components, suggesting the need for multiple plots to represent motion in higher dimensions.
  • Some participants propose that to analyze motion in two or three dimensions, one should consider the components of velocity along each axis and use separate kinematic equations.
  • There is a suggestion that derivatives should be viewed as rates of change rather than merely slopes of graphs, emphasizing a broader interpretation of their meaning.
  • A later reply introduces the idea of visualizing circular motion in two dimensions as a helix when plotted with time as a third dimension, highlighting the complexity of multi-dimensional motion representation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need to consider vector components for multi-dimensional motion, but there are varying interpretations of how to visualize and represent these concepts graphically. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best methods for depicting such motion.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the potential confusion around the geometric interpretation of derivatives and the challenges of visualizing higher-dimensional motion, which may depend on specific definitions and contexts.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and educators in physics and mathematics, particularly those interested in understanding motion in multiple dimensions and the implications of vector quantities in kinematics.

beasteye
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So let's assume an object moves along a straight line relative to some fixed origin. Clearly we can study this motion with the help of a position vs. time graph which shows how the position varies as time goes on. Now, as far as I understand, the slope of this graph at any time t gives the instantaneous velocity of the object, because it measures the change in position over time.

Now, the thing that I don't quite understand is,how would such a graph look like if the object were to move in two or three dimensions? Assuming it now moves in space, it could still be moving along a straight line, but what if it started moving in some other direction, how do the new velocities look like on a position vs. time graph? There seems to be a gap in my understanding at this point and I can't quite connect how the slope of a position vs. time graph would represent the change in velocity.
I hope I stated my concerns clearly and I'm looking forward to any sharing of thoughts on this matter.
Thanks
 
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Position in space is a vector quantity in the sense that it classically has three components, ##\vec{x} = (x,y,z)##. Velocity is the same way in that
\vec{V} = (u,v,w) = \left( \dfrac{dx}{dt},\dfrac{dy}{dt},\dfrac{dz}{dt} \right).
In essence, you need three plots.

I'd also caution you against thinking of derivatives purely as the slopes of graphs. While it's true that a derivative represents the slope of a graph of one of the variables against the other, it's better to think of them as the rate of change of one variable with respect to another. For instance, ##u = dx/dt## is the rate of change of ##x## with respect to ##t##.
 
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beasteye said:
how would such a graph look like if the object were to move in two or three dimensions?
You simply take components of velocity along the two or three axes and write separate kinematic equations for them. To find the resultant velocity, simply add the components (vectorially). Look up projectile motion for instance.
 
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boneh3ad said:
Position in space is a vector quantity in the sense that it classically has three components, ##\vec{x} = (x,y,z)##. Velocity is the same way in that
\vec{V} = (u,v,w) = \left( \dfrac{dx}{dt},\dfrac{dy}{dt},\dfrac{dz}{dt} \right).
In essence, you need three plots.

I'd also caution you against thinking of derivatives purely as the slopes of graphs. While it's true that a derivative represents the slope of a graph of one of the variables against the other, it's better to think of them as the rate of change of one variable with respect to another. For instance, ##u = dx/dt## is the rate of change of ##x## with respect to ##t##.
Thank you for your answer, this totally makes sense because considering each component separately I can understand it in the same manner as in one dimension.
Yes you are right on the understanding of the derivative, I was just considering the geometric interpretation of it :)
 
cnh1995 said:
You simply take components of velocity along the two or three axes and write separate kinematic equations for them. To find the resultant velocity, simply add the components (vectorially). Look up projectile motion for instance.
Yes, thank you very much, it all makes more sense now :)
 
beasteye said:
how would such a graph look like if the object were to move in two or three dimensions?
Consider an object moving in two dimensions in regular circular motion. If you "plot" that using something like a 3D printer with time as the third dimension then you would wind up with a helix.

In principle you can do the same thing with 3D motion, but 4D printers and 4D paper are hard to find!
 

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