I Prof Mike Wiest's proposed link between quantum and consciousness

[nomadreid]

TL;DR Summary

How valid are Prof. Mike Wiest's (Wellesley College) speculations, based on his experiments (link given), of the link between consciousness and quantum processes?

I am not sure if this belongs in the biology section, but it appears more of a quantum physics question.

Mike Wiest, Associate Professor of Neuroscience at Wellesley College in the US. In 2024 he published the results of an experiment on anaesthesia which purported to point to a role of quantum processes in consciousness; here is a popular exposition:
https://neurosciencenews.com/quantum-process-consciousness-27624/

As my expertise in neuroscience doesn't reach up to an ant's ear, and my quantum physics background at an elementary level, I have no idea how valid the experiment or his tentative conclusions about a link between consciousness and quantum processes are. I did cringe a little at the mention of these processes taking place in microtubules in the brain, as these figured prominently in the discredited "Orchestrated Objective Reduction" theory of Penrose and Hameroff. (I must admit that, knowing more mathematics than neuroscience, it was Penrose's misunderstanding of Gödel's results that led me to the refutations of the "cascade" theory which tried, much less successfully than one of this year's Nobel winners, to link quantum effects to macroprocesses.) But of course guilt by association ("microtubules") is not valid, and so I turn to the more knowledgable people on this forum.

I could not find replication of his results, but I probably am not looking in the right place, or perhaps a year is too little time. Even if the results are replicated, I am not knowledgable about all the possible confounding factors which might mean that the observed effects are due to classical rather than quantum effects.

Thank you in advance for shedding any light on this.

 

[PeterDonis]

I have no idea how valid the experiment [is]

As far as his claimed effect of microtubule-binding drugs on anesthesia, I have no idea. That sort of discussion belongs in the appropriate biology forum, as the experiment itself has nothing to do with quantum physics. It would be evaluated using the same kind of standards as any other experiment claiming to show a biological effect of a drug.

or his tentative conclusions about a link between consciousness and quantum processes

Those aren't even his "tentative conclusions". He's just saying "somebody else came up with this microtubules are involved in consciousness thing, and I did an experiment about microtubules and anesthesia". Again, the experiment itself has nothing to do with quantum physics.

 

[nomadreid]

Thanks very much, PeterDonis. Hm, Indeed I appear to have read it too quickly, having been led astray by the summary by the journal at the beginning (which deceptively makes it sound as if there was a quantum aspect to the experiment), but I see from the quote by the author that “Since we don’t know of another (i.e., classical) way that anesthetic binding to microtubules would generally reduce brain activity and cause unconsciousness,” Wiest says, “this finding supports the quantum model of consciousness.”, that the link to quantum processes is pure speculation on his part. So, oops, sorry for posting in the wrong forum.

 

[mitchell porter]

I worked for Hameroff for a year. I consider their theory a great contribution, because of how mind-opening it is.

In my opinion, if quantum information is genuinely part of cognition or consciousness, the microtubule is an excellent candidate for where it could be happening. There needs to be some protection against room-temperature decoherence, and the cylindrical topology of the microtubule suggests topologically stabilized quantum states.

However, it is very difficult to directly prove or disprove quantum effects in living matter, because their contribution may be quite subtle. You can see this in the debate about whether there's a quantum speedup in the transfer of energy through the photosynthetic complex. The same problem arises in quantum computing paradigms that are built on top of a classical computational process, like adiabatic quantum computing.

The standard view of the microtubule is that its role is structural. An amoeba extends a pseudopod by growing out its microtubules, the microtubules move the chromosomes around during cell division, they are also the highways along which certain enzymes are carried by the walking molecule kinesin.

Recall that the basic idea of how computation occurs in the nervous system, is through a combination of polarization waves traveling along axons, and neurotransmitters being spat across the synaptic gap from one neuron to the next. Whether these events occur depends on a lot of conditions in and around the cell, and the microtubules can play a very indirect part by affecting those background conditions.

But if you were looking for a way that microtubules could be directly involved in information processing, the way that the axon membrane and the synaptic vesicles are, I would start with the microtubules in the neuronal axon, which are oriented along the axon. There might be electromagnetic interactions between the axon electrical potential and mobile electrons within the microtubules; there could be chemical interactions between ions and proteins that cross the axon membrane, and the tubulins in the microtubules.

I believe there are a number of experimental results indicating some interaction between anaesthetics and microtubules. I don't keep up with that side of things - in fact, I'm prepared for actual biologists to correct my word-pictures above, in any number of ways - and I can't tell you how Mike Wiest's results impact the existing body of theory and knowledge in anesthesiology (as opposed to Orch OR theory, specifically). But I would expect that the observations themselves are valid.

Here's an article by Wiest himself: "Old theory, new evidence"

 

[pines-demon]

I can see why searching for quantum phenomena in the brain would be encouraged or at least interesting to look into it. But I cannot even fanthom how quantum phenomena in the brain could have any link to consciousness, and even Penrose is very handwavy about this.

 

[sbrothy]

On the face of it it almost sounds like it belongs in my "philosophy thread". Whenever I hear (read) "quantum" and "consciousness" in the same sentence alarms go off.

 

[AlexB23]

On the face of it it almost sounds like it belongs in my "philosophy thread". Whenever I hear (read) "quantum" and "consciousness" in the same sentence alarms go off.

Agreed 100%. The article sounds like bologna sandwich.

 

[sbrothy]

Why thank you very much for that backhanded compliment on my "philosophy thread"!

EDITED.

 

[AlexB23]

Why thank you very much for that backhanded compliment on my "philosophy thread"!

EDITED.

Haha, you are funny. But this article was posted by OP, @nomadreid