Pronouncing Wiener: Is it Viner or Wee-ner?

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The discussion centers around the pronunciation of "Wiener," specifically in reference to Norbert Wiener. Participants debate whether it should be pronounced as "wee-ner" or "vee-ner," considering his Polish-Jewish heritage and the influence of German pronunciation. Some argue that the correct pronunciation is "wee-ner," while others suggest "vee-ner," citing the linguistic nuances between German and English. The conversation touches on dialect variations within German-speaking regions and the impact of English phonetics on the perception of German sounds. Several users reference external sources, including a Wikipedia article and YouTube videos, to support their claims. The debate reveals a mix of personal experiences and linguistic insights, with no definitive consensus reached on the pronunciation.
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Sorry for the rather abrupt question, but how does one pronounce "Wiener", as in Norbert Wiener?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener

Does it sound like "Viner"?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
tee hee heee hee

sorry :redface:
 
How is this question abrupt? What sequence is it rupturing?
 
Well, I'd pronounce it "wee-ner" but if he pronounces it with the Polish pronunciation of his father's ancestry rather than with an American accent, it might be more like "vee-ner" but short and chopped rather than long and drawled out.
 
Did der veenersnitzle come from Poland ? :devil:
 
It wouldn't be Wine-er? *shrug*
 
edward said:
Did der veenersnitzle come from Poland ? :devil:

The wiki article cited says his father was Polish and mother German, so I'm assuming his last name would have picked up his father's pronunciation, not his mother's.
 
In German you pronounce the second letter of 'ie' or 'ei'
 
mgb_phys said:
In German you pronounce the second letter of 'ie' or 'ei'

Learn something new every day.

I just wish it was something more substantial, but I'll take what I can get. :-p
 
  • #10
Moonbear said:
The wiki article cited says his father was Polish and mother German, so I'm assuming his last name would have picked up his father's pronunciation, not his mother's.

But the article also says that his father was Polish-Jewish and many Jewish names tend to be pronounced using German (well, Yiddish) pronunciation regardless of the country of origin.
Just think of all the Russian-Jewish scientist (Lifgarbagez and Landau comes to mind), you don't use Russian pronunciation for their names.
 
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  • #11
As Moonbear said, "wee-ner" is the correct pronounciation. I'm of German descent, I should know...:wink:
 
  • #12
Equate said:
As Moonbear said, "wee-ner" is the correct pronounciation. I'm of German descent, I should know...:wink:

My mother vas from Germany, on the Polish side of the border now. A German would properly pronounce it "Vee-ner", as Moonbear also stated.

Now if you are from Michigan, it's obviously pronounced "wee-ner", as proven by the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HUJ4es4cYIU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HUJ4es4cYIU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
 
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  • #13
OmCheeto said:
My mother vas from Germany, on the Polish side of the border now. A German would properly pronounce it "Vee-ner", as Moonbear also stated.

Nice try Om, :biggrin: but no, the mix up is likely because the city of Wien is also known as Vienna.

But it's ween, listen carefully to German mother tongues (Deutcher Mutter Zunge):

Cs1jgQJ5OQU[/youtube] [url]nONboKmXg20[/youtube]
 
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  • #14
Andre said:
Nice try Om, :biggrin: but no, the mix up is likely because the city of Wien is also known as Vienna.

But it's ween, listen carefully to German mother tongues (Deutcher Mutter Zunge):


Thank you Andre. As my mother would say, you have made this so klar wie dicke Tinte. :rolleyes:
 
  • #15
Boy, I didn't expect this to be a debate.

It seems most people here either agreed upon 'veener' or 'weener'

I just found this site:
http://www.waukesha.uwc.edu/mat/kkromare/main.html

According to the site, the correct pronunciation is 'vee nuhr'. I've no idea whether it's right. But some of the pronunciations of other obscure mathematicians seems correct (in particular, I asked for the pronunciation of 'Stieltjes' a few months ago).
 
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  • #16
rsq_a said:
Boy, I didn't expect this to be a debate.

It seems most people here either agreed upon 'veener' or 'weener'

I just found this site:
http://www.waukesha.uwc.edu/mat/kkromare/main.html

According to the site, the correct pronunciation is 'vee nuhr'. I've no idea whether it's right. But some of the pronunciations of other obscure mathematicians seems correct (in particular, I asked for the pronunciation of 'Stieltjes' a few months ago).

It seems that that this site lives on a parallel word where all german "W" are pronounced as "V". Now let it be known that both German and English are Germanic languages and hence closely related. And as such, consonants are pronounced basically in the same way.

So if this mathematical expression thing wants to impose the German W as V, it has probably more to do with cultivating subculture and slang than reality and

Wilhelm Weber 1804-91 'vay buhr
Nope (in real life): Way buhr

Karl Weierstrass 1815-97 'vi uhr shtrass
Nope: (in real life) Why uhr shtrah ss
 
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  • #17
Andre said:
Nope (in real life): Way buhr

Interesting.

He was called "Vey-bur" where I studied, although a few insisted on "Webber".
 
  • #18
Andre said:
Nope: (in real life) Why uhr shtrah ss

I've never heard it (at two schools in two different countries) pronounced with a W and not a V.
 
  • #19
Here you go:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiener"
:wink:
 
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  • #20
rsq_a said:
I've never heard it (at two schools in two different countries) pronounced with a W and not a V.

Well, we have just witnessed the mutilation of wiener, caught red handed, would you believe from somebody who spent years in Germany that Germans pronounce ALL W's as W and not as V?
 
  • #21
Wiener schnitzel

edward said:
Did der veenersnitzle come from Poland ? :devil:

It's Wiener schnitzel :-p, and it probably came from Milan, in Italy (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_Schnitzel) …

but it's named after Vienna, so the name is German. :wink:
 
  • #22
Andre said:
Well, we have just witnessed the mutilation of wiener, caught red handed, would you believe from somebody who spent years in Germany that Germans pronounce ALL W's as W and not as V?

which part of germany did you stay in? are you talking about the Hochdeutsch (High German) version or a dialect version. Inhabitants of Hannover, for example, speak the closest form of Hochdeutsch (IIRC) whereas Schwaben speak, well, Schwäbisch. All with very very different pronunciations and grammar btw.

Personally, I would go for the Vaynuhr (maybe closer to Veigh-nuhr, but that would be from the plattdeutsch that I was surrounded by during my stay in Germany) pronunciation. But, it would probably be easier to look in you phone book or web directory, find someone of that name and ask them how they pronounce it :wink:
 
  • #23
Andre said:
It seems that that this site lives on a parallel word where all german "W" are pronounced as "V". Now let it be known that both German and English are Germanic languages and hence closely related. And as such, consonants are pronounced basically in the same way.

I disagree:

English
v - vee as in very, vile
w - wa as in water, well
z - z as in buzz, zoom
s - s as in sail, sick

German (with english pronunciations)
v - f (vor -> for)
W - v (weiter -> veigh-ter)
z - ts (zu -> tsu)
s - z (sieben -> zee-ben)
q - ku
 
  • #24
Andre said:
It seems that that this site lives on a parallel word where all german "W" are pronounced as "V". Now let it be known that both German and English are Germanic languages and hence closely related. And as such, consonants are pronounced basically in the same way.

I've studied German in high school and college, and have visited Germany several times. My wife has a Ph.D. in German and teaches it. I've never heard of German 'w' being pronounced like English 'w', always as English 'v', except in German names that have been Anglicized by immigrants in English-speaking countries, and that practice isn't universal.
 
  • #25
I am reallyflabbergasted. But it's probably my Dutch native tongue

Now here is the prononciation as I remember it for the last oh 56 years or so, regardless if it comes from Bayern, Preusen, Nord Rhein Westfalen, Sasken

Equate said:
Here you go:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiener"
:wink:

Now if that sounds like a "V", that would explain everything, but to for my ears it's the purest "W" I ever heard.

Also are these native tongues wrong? Have they no idea how to pronounce their own "Wien"?

Andre said:
Cs1jgQJ5OQU[/youtube] [url]nONboKmXg20[/youtube][/QUOTE]
 
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  • #26
Equate said:
Here you go:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiener"
:wink:

I hear a "W", no trace of a "V".
 
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  • #27
LITTLE DICK, sorry
 
  • #28
lisab said:
I hear a "W", no trace of a "V".

Thanks, Lisa, I needed the reality check. I really wonder what the origin is of the W=V myth. First of all, I seem to observe that there is a minute difference in pronounciation of the English and the German W. In English one starts of with a rounded mouth as if one intends to say Ooh, but the moment the word starts, the mouth is quickly widened, so there is a hint of a Oo before the W, oo-water, pronounced slow and gently . Germans do not announce the w with an ooh. It's there straight away, no initial rounding of the lips: wasser. pronounced quick and staccato

So perhaps it might be this tiny difference that the English have the impression that the German W is a V. However there is a clear distinction with the real German V as in Vater, Vektor, Vergangenheit, viel, und so weiter.

Alternately it could have been Hollywood where it was decided perhaps that some nutty professor mutulated the language by making V out of W's (Vot?). So obviously science thought it should pick it up by banning the W altogether.

However the Germans are completely unaware of these Anglosaksian complications and continue to happily talk with W for Wasserfall, Weiss, Wochenende, Wunderbar und so weiter.
 
  • #29
Oh, and thanks, Andre. I can't get Wiener Blut out of my head now.
 
  • #30
  • #31
Andre said:
9htxzB9veLI[/youtube][/QUOTE] Tr...i] dort steht das Glück vor der Tür…[/quote]
 
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  • #32
Math Is Hard said:
Interesting.

He was called "Vey-bur" where I studied, although a few insisted on "Webber".

I found it interesting that every professor I had in the physics department would pronounce a German's name using the Hoch Deutsch pronunciation and all my engineering profs would use English pronunciation.

So:

Physics: Ein-schtein, Schroedin-grrr, Pl-ahnk, etc.
Engineering: Einstein, Shroedin-ger, Plank, etc.

As for the "v" or "w," I was taught the high German pronunciations which would always do an English "v" for "w." But the local accent I've found to vary, particular in southern Germany, like Bavaria and Schwabia, and Austria. I'd always go for high German accent, always a safe bet.
 
  • #33
VEEner
 
  • #34
redargon said:
which part of germany did you stay in? are you talking about the Hochdeutsch (High German) version or a dialect version. Inhabitants of Hannover, for example, speak the closest form of Hochdeutsch (IIRC) whereas Schwaben speak, well, Schwäbisch. All with very very different pronunciations and grammar btw.

Personally, I would go for the Vaynuhr (maybe closer to Veigh-nuhr, but that would be from the plattdeutsch that I was surrounded by during my stay in Germany) pronunciation. But, it would probably be easier to look in you phone book or web directory, find someone of that name and ask them how they pronounce it :wink:

my dyslexia crept in there, I read Weiner (and would pronounce that Veigh-nuhr) instead of Wiener (which I would pronounce Vee-nuhr).

Also, mit andere Worten:
Weiner - Veigh-nuhr
Wiener - Vee-nuhr
 
  • #35
Obviously when 200 million or so people learn a mutilated parody of a language from Hollywood films, there is no way to correct back to the original, as is very convincingly demonstrated in this thread.

Anyway here is how you could pronounce Weber (weaver). Click on the different speaker icons.

However, the few hundred Germans I know througout Germany, pronounce it as Way-bur.
 
  • #36
I don't think it is from films that this thread is the way it is. This a typical potato (po-taa-to) potato (po-tay-to) problem. I didn't learn my German from hollywood movies, i learned it from two different teachers, a girlfriend and from working in Germany with German colleagues and friends. I don't know how they would all pronounce it, but from the teachers I had, they would have wanted me to to say Vee-nuhr, in a rising tone for Vee with a dropped tone for nuhr and a semi guttural r. I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right. That's just they way I'd do it from what I was taught from the native german speakers that I learned from. I also speak Dutch (well Flemish actually) and the W is pronounced almost exactly like in english (but maybe a bit more like a Wh). Yes they're all Germanic languages.

my dad says graph (graf) I say graph (graaf), but it doesn't bother me and both are correct.

To the OP, pick one you're comfortable with and let us know so we can end this (somewhat endless) debate.
 
  • #37
well perhaps it helps to just look at a bit of every day German. An interview with Angela Merkel

9TmtTStSawk[/youtube] Spot the W...e[/b] sieht ihre [b]Wertung[/b] .. etc etc
 
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  • #38
I forgot to ask my wife about this yesterday... I'll try to remember to do it tonight. It could be a dialectal thing, although I find it hard to believe that someone like Angela Merkel could slip into dialect during a TV interview.

After Googling around on German dialects and phonology, I've come up with a tentative idea. What you're hearing as an English 'w' sound might actually be a labiodental approximant.

The sound that English-speakers associate with 'v' is a voiced labiodental fricative: the upper front teeth and lower lip touch lightly or almost touch, mostly (but not completely) blocking the airstream. In a labiodental approximant, the teeth and lip are further apart and there is little or no blockage of the airstream.

The English 'w' sound is a voiced labio-velar approximant. The back of the tongue rises close to the curtain in the back of the mouth, and the lips are rounded. The teeth don't come into play at all.

I found a page (but now I can't find it again!) which indicates that in southern Germany (presumably including Austria), the 'v' sound sometimes alternates with the labiodental approximant.
 
  • #39
Here's another Deutsche page which pronounces names starting with W's somewhat differently depending on the name:

Wilma, Werner, und Walter sound like V's to me, but Wolfgang sounds like a W.

http://www.nordicnames.de/Aussprache.html

I do seem to recall from my 4 years of studying the German language that there are certain sounds, which although the same to an American ear, are obviously different to a German ear. I can distinctly remember Herr Manchester saying over and over again, "Now try and hear the difference: Mutter, Mütter, Mutter, Mütter, Mutter, Mütter. There, could you hear the difference?"
Class, "No."

:smile:
 
  • #40
jtbell said:
What you're hearing as an English 'w' sound might actually be a labiodental approximant.

[...] The English 'w' sound is a voiced labio-velar approximant. The back of the tongue rises close to the curtain in the back of the mouth, and the lips are rounded. The teeth don't come into play at all.

Aha! Now I remember that Andre is Dutch, and according to Wikipedia's Dutch phonology page, Dutch has the labiodental approximant (and spells it "w"), but not the (English style) voiced labio-velar approximant "w".
 
  • #41
My nationality and the languages which I speak are not relevant anymore when we hear the pronounciation of the W by Angela Merkel and her interviewer. I have already alknowledged the minute differece between the English and German W, but that does not make the latter a V by any means, like the V for Wery or wegetables or Windicate or Wermont
 
  • #42
ummm... again: potato potato.
 
  • #43
redargon said:
ummm... again: potato potato.

Sure whatever, you have all the right to pronounce Wiener as Feener in a languague that can pronounce ghoti as fish, just don't think that it has anything to do with the german languague.
 
  • #44
It's a comparision to something that occurs in other languages that could cause confusion or debate on pronounciations. It is also an attempt to show that the difference is moot.

Are you saying that my (and others here that don't agree with you) have inferior German language skills or knowledge or experience?

Just remember also, that languages evolve and change all the time. Languages are not mathematics, there are not always black and white answers, it's a little grey actually. Bringing me again to my conclusion that the difference between wiener and wiener is moot.
 
  • #45
I wonder if the problems in this thread are related to those Romans mispronouncing :smile: 'v' -weni, widi, wici ?
 
  • #46
It might Fi, however I see it more like a problem as one country dictating another country how they should evolve their language, in order for them not being wrong.
 
  • #47
Andre said:
well perhaps it helps to just look at a bit of every day German. An interview with Angela Merkel

9TmtTStSawk[/youtube] Spot the W...than the German "ch," to me it sounds harder.
 
  • #48
Born2bwire said:
The closest thing to it is an English "v." The English does not have the German "w" sound, as jtbell explained. The closest we have is the English "v."

I don't think so. Don't use the 'Vee's of veal* or Venus* to pronounce Wiener*. The English W of we* or weevil* is much closer.

*Hit the speaker icon for the pronounciation.
 
  • #49
Andre said:
I don't think so. Don't use the 'Vee's of veal* or Venus* to pronounce Wiener*. The English W of we* or weevil* is much closer.

*Hit the speaker icon for the pronounciation.

I don't think using an English dictionary is going to help here when we're talking about German pronunciation. We could try a German dictionary: http://www.leo.org/dict/audio_de/w/Wien.mp3 which uses what is closest to the English "v" (though I think it isn't as hard as the English "v," to me it sounds like a cross between the "f" and "v" but you don't articulate your mouth that gives it the "wuh" sound that the English "w" has). I think jtbell maybe right, being Dutch colors your perception of the pronunciation as your language has the German "w" where English doesn't.

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&la...e=both&pinyin=diacritic&search=wien&relink=on
 
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  • #50
No need to talk about my colors when there is abundance of authentic German tongue examples around:

Andre said:
9TmtTStSawk[/youtube] Spot the W...here do you hear an Engish V in the German W?
 

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