Proper Frame of Observer O: Unique Foliation?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter andrewkirk
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Coordinates Frame
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of a 'proper frame' for an observer O in the context of spacetime foliations. Participants explore whether such a frame determines a unique foliation of spacetime, particularly under certain conditions, including the orthogonality of time axes to constant-time hypersurfaces. The scope includes theoretical considerations and mathematical reasoning related to general relativity and coordinate systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that while a proper frame for observer O is not unique due to spatial rotations, it may be 'approximately unique' in a neighborhood of O's worldline, where time coordinates of points are the same to first order.
  • It is suggested that a proper frame can define a unique foliation of spacetime within a neighborhood of O's worldline, but not outside it, with the neighborhood size depending on the proper acceleration of O.
  • One participant introduces the W-Orthogonality Criterion, questioning whether imposing this constraint on coordinate systems would lead to a unique foliation of spacetime.
  • Another participant notes that Fermi normal coordinates satisfy the orthogonality condition and provide a unique foliation near O's worldline, but emphasizes that non-uniqueness persists due to spacetime curvature and proper acceleration.
  • There is a discussion on the distinction between Fermi normal coordinates and Riemann normal coordinates, with a focus on their applicability to different types of observers.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that a proper frame is not unique and that non-uniqueness arises from factors like spacetime curvature. However, there is no consensus on whether the W-Orthogonality Criterion leads to a unique foliation, as some argue it may not resolve the underlying issues of non-uniqueness.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the dependence on the observer's worldline and the effects of spacetime curvature and acceleration, which may influence the uniqueness of the foliation.

andrewkirk
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Gold Member
Messages
4,140
Reaction score
1,741
By 'proper frame' of observer O, I mean any reference frame (coordinate system) in which

(Condition A:) The worldline of O is always at the spatial origin for every time coordinate.

Clearly such a frame is not unique because spatial rotations do not invalidate (A). What I am interested in is whether it determines a unique foliation of spacetime, so that the time coordinate is unique, modulo a change of time units.

My guess is that the answer is No, but that a proper frameof O is 'approximately unique' near O, meaning something like that for any two frames C1 and C2 that are proper relative to O, the time coordinates of a point x under frames C1 and C2 are the same, to first order, for x near O.

I can't recall seeing a theorem about this. The closest I can remember is about the existence of Normal Coordinates, but that's a somewhat different issue, as Normal Coordinates are for a locally inertial frame, and the proper frames we are talking about here need not be inertial.

Thank you.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
andrewkirk said:
My guess is that the answer is No, but that a proper frameof O is 'approximately unique' near O

A more precise way to say this is that, for any observer O, we can construct a "proper frame" for O that assigns unique coordinates to events in some neighborhood of O's worldline, but it will not assign unique coordinates to events outside that neighborhood. Such a coordinate chart will define a unique foliation of spacetime within that same neighborhood of O's worldline, but not outside it. (The size of the neighborhood will be of order ##1 / a##, where ##a## is the proper acceleration of O's worldline.)

andrewkirk said:
meaning something like that for any two frames C1 and C2 that are proper relative to O, the time coordinates of a point x under frames C1 and C2 are the same, to first order, for x near O.

This basically means C1 and C2 are related by a spatial rotation only. If the rotation is not time-dependent, then yes, I think what you say is true. But if, for example, C2 is rotating at some angular velocity ##\omega## relative to C1, then the two frames will not define the same foliation of spacetime within the same neighborhood of O's worldline; the time coordinates they assign can be made to be the same only on O's worldline, not throughout the neighborhood.

andrewkirk said:
Normal Coordinates are for a locally inertial frame

More precisely, Riemann normal coordinates are for a local inertial frame. But no local inertial frame can be a "proper frame" in your sense for any observer, because even if the observer is inertial, his worldline will diverge from the "time axis" of the local inertial frame once it gets far enough from the origin of the LIF for tidal gravity to become non-negligible.

What you are describing are Fermi normal coordinates, which can be constructed around the worldline of any observer at all, inertial or with arbitrary (and possibly time-dependent) proper acceleration. These coordinates define a "proper frame" in your sense, because the observer's worldline is always at the spatial origin. But the coordinate values this frame assigns will not, in general, be the same as for Riemann normal coordinates, even for an inertial observer within a small patch of spacetime on which the Riemann normal coordinates are defined.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: andrewkirk
Thank you Peter. If we add the constraint that the 'proper' coordinate system must everywhere have a time axis that is orthogonal to the constant-time hypersurfaces (isotemps), does that make the foliation it generates unique?

Formally, given spacetime [itex]M[/itex] and a time-like worldline [itex]\gamma:(0,1)\to M[/itex] of an observer, with image I am [itex]\gamma=W[/itex], is it the case that, for any two coordinate systems [itex]C1,C2:M\to \mathbb{R}^4[/itex] that satisfy the [itex]W[/itex]-orthogonality criterion below, the isotemps that intersect [itex]W[/itex] will agree wherever they are both defined (ie for any two points [itex]u,v\in M[/itex] that are [itex]C1[/itex]-simultaneous with each other and with a point [itex]p1\in W[/itex], at least one of which, say [itex]u[/itex], is also [itex]C2[/itex]-simultaneous with a point [itex]p2\in W[/itex], we must have [itex]p1=p2[/itex] and [itex]u,v[/itex] must also be [itex]C2[/itex]-simultaneous).

[itex]W[/itex]-Orthogonality Criterion
We say a global coordinate system [itex]C:M\to \mathbb{R}^4[/itex] satisfies this criterion if, for every point [itex]p\in M[/itex] that has a point [itex]q_p\in W[/itex] with which it is [itex]C[/itex]-simultaneous, and for all [itex]x,y,z\in\mathbb{R}[/itex], it is the case that [itex]\langle\vec{e}_0(p),\vec{v}\rangle=0[/itex], where [itex]\vec{e}_0(p)\in T_pM[/itex] is the time coordinate vector of coordinate system [itex]C[/itex] at [itex]p[/itex] and [itex]\vec{v}\in T_pM[/itex] is the vector with components [itex](0,x,y,z)[/itex] in the basis of [itex]T_pM[/itex] derived from coordinate system [itex]C[/itex] (ie the time axis is everywhere orthogonal to the isotemps).

This criterion is weaker than a global orthogonality criterion because it only requires the orthogonality to apply at points that are simultaneous with points in the worldline [itex]W[/itex].

Example
Consider a 2D spacetime plotted on the number plane with time axis vertical, so that isotemps under the natural, Cartesian coordinate system (call that [itex]C1[/itex]) are horizontal lines. Let [itex]C2[/itex] be the coordinate system whose time axes are still vertical but spatial axes (isotemps) have a constant gradient of 10%. Both of these coordinate systems are in a sense proper coordinate systems of an observer whose worldline heads vertically upwards along the [itex]C1[/itex] time axis, and they define different isotemps. But if we impose the Orthogonality Criterion, it rules out [itex]C2[/itex], whose isotemps are not orthogonal to the time axes.
 
Last edited:
andrewkirk said:
If we add the constraint that the 'proper' coordinate system must everywhere have a time axis that is orthogonal to the constant-time hypersurfaces (isotemps), does that make the foliation it generates unique?

Fermi normal coordinates already obey this constraint. As I said, they give a unique foliation in a neighborhood of O's worldline, but not outside it. There's no way to do any better; the non-uniqueness is because of spacetime curvature and (if applicable) the proper acceleration of the worldline. You can't eliminate those by changing coordinates.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
  • · Replies 78 ·
3
Replies
78
Views
8K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 58 ·
2
Replies
58
Views
6K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 51 ·
2
Replies
51
Views
5K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K