Prove: X Contains at Most n(n-1)/2 Elements in Subset of a Group

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving that a set X, defined in the context of a group G and a subset A, contains at most n(n-1)/2 elements. The focus is on the properties of groups and subsets, particularly concerning inverses and the implications for the size of X.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Post 1 introduces the problem, defining X as a set of pairs (a, b) where both a and b are in A and their product ab is also in A.
  • Post 2 suggests that X is maximized when both a and b are elements of A such that ab remains in A.
  • Post 3 questions the clarity of the hint provided in Post 2, seeking further explanation.
  • Post 4 outlines the properties of group G, emphasizing closure, associativity, identity, and inverses, and discusses the implications of A being a subset of G without necessarily containing the identity element.
  • Post 4 further explores scenarios where A may or may not contain the identity, suggesting that the presence of self-inverses affects the count of elements in A.
  • Post 4 proposes that the number of non-inverses could be approximated by taking half of the elements in A, given the properties of group G.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the identity element's presence in subset A and its effect on the size of X. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact counting of elements in X and the conditions under which the proposed upper limit holds.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding assumptions about the identity element in subset A and how this affects the calculations for the size of X. The discussion also reflects uncertainty about the conditions under which the properties of group G apply to subset A.

the_fox
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Let G be a group and A a subset of G with n elements such that if x is in A then x^(-1) is not in A. Let X={(a,b) a in A, b in A, ab in A}. Prove that X contains at most n(n-1)/2 elements.
 
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Hint: X is largest when a,b in A => ab in A.
 
That's how X is defined. What exactly do you mean?
 
Let's see what we are given. We have G as a group and A as a subset of G. Thus, since G is a group, we have the following giveaways:

1) G is closed under the binary operation
2) G is associative under the binary operation
3) G has an identity element
4) G has an inverse for each element

A is a subset of G with n elements, such that each element has it's inverse NOT contained in the set.

Since A is just a subset of G, we cannot assume that it will have an identity (this is only a giveaway if it were a subgroup). Thus, we will have some sort of a max here, meaning, there is a version of A that has the identity, and a version without the identity.

This matters because the inverse of an identity is itself. Thus if we have A with an identity, we'd have to remove it completely from the set since a = a^-1 and a^-1 is not permitted in A. This gives us (n-1) elements.

Now, what happens when A does NOT have the identity? This means you have n elements since each a in A is not a self-inverse.

Thus you have to account for a set that factors in self-inverses, and a set that doesn't. Getting the number of non-inverses just amounts to taking half of the given number of elements of the particular set (since we know through G that each element of A does have an inverse).

Try applying this to X.
 

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