Proving the limit does not exist formally

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the challenge of formally disproving a limit using the epsilon-delta definition. Participants explore the complexities involved in both proving and disproving limits, particularly focusing on the methodology and examples related to the epsilon-delta framework.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses difficulty in finding resources on disproving limits using the epsilon-delta definition.
  • Another participant notes that both proving and disproving limits can be quite challenging, particularly in deriving narrow error estimates.
  • Several participants provide the formal definition of a limit and its negation, emphasizing the logical structure required to disprove a limit.
  • A participant questions whether there is a general procedure for finding epsilon values when disproving limits, or if the approach varies significantly from one limit to another.
  • An example is presented to disprove the limit of ##\lim_{x \rightarrow c}x+2 = c##, illustrating the process of showing that for some epsilon, the limit definition does not hold.
  • The example highlights that choosing appropriate values for delta can lead to demonstrating that the limit does not exist under certain conditions.
  • A participant mentions that these proofs can become very intricate, indicating the complexity involved in the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the complexity of disproving limits using the epsilon-delta definition, but there is no consensus on a specific methodology or procedure that applies universally across different limits.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reflects various assumptions about the nature of limits and the epsilon-delta framework, but does not resolve the nuances of these assumptions or the specific mathematical steps involved in disproving limits.

NATURE.M
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So I've searched around quite a bit, and have been fairly unsuccessful when it comes to finding any sufficient material on disproving a limit using the epsilon delta def. I was wondering if any of you could recommend any good sources for learning how to disprove a limit using epsilon delta.
 
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Both proving and disproving specific limits, for example to come up with narrow error estimates of the limit value, is generally an extremely tricky business.
 
Recall the definition of ##\lim_{x\rightarrow c}f(x) = l##
$$\forall \epsilon > 0\ \exists\ \delta > 0 \ such\ that\ 0<|x-c|<\delta \implies |f(x) - l| < \epsilon$$
Say that is it not true that ##lim_{x\rightarrow c}f(x) = l## this means
$$\exists \epsilon > 0\ \forall\ \delta > 0\ , there\ is\ x\ satisfying\ 0< |x-c| < \delta \ but\ |f(x) - l| >= \epsilon$$
 
DarthRoni said:
Recall the definition of ##\lim_{x\rightarrow c}f(x) = l##
$$\forall \epsilon > 0\ \exists\ \delta > 0 \ such\ that\ 0<|x-c|<\delta \implies |f(x) - l| < \epsilon$$
Say that is it not true that ##lim_{x\rightarrow c}f(x) = l## this means
$$\exists \epsilon > 0\ \forall\ \delta > 0\ , there\ is\ x\ satisfying\ 0< |x-c| < \delta \ but\ |f(x) - l| >= \epsilon$$

I understand the negation of the epsilon-delta statement, but you could say is there a particular way to approach such a task. When your trying to find an epsilon is there a general procedure you could perform. Or does it really just always change from limit to limit.
 
Here's an example:
Disprove ##\lim_{x \rightarrow c}x+2 = c##
we want to show for some ##\epsilon > 0## then ##\forall \delta>0##
$$|x-c|<\delta \implies |(x+2) - c| >= \epsilon $$
We know
$$|(x+2) - c| = |(x-c) + 2|$$
And let's say $$|x-c|<1$$
Because remember that we are trying to show that there is an x in which the definition falls apart. So,
$$-1 < x -c < 1 \implies |(x-c) + 2| > |-1 + 2| = 1$$
So we can say that any ##\epsilon < 1## works. Notice that I chose |x-c| to be smaller than 2.
HINT: really any ##\epsilon < 2## works
EDIT: Just as arildno said, theses proofs can get REALLY tricky.
 
Last edited:

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