B Question about a simple free body diagram

Click For Summary
The discussion centers on a free body diagram involving two blocks, one vertical and one horizontal, connected by a pulley. Participants express confusion over the forces depicted, particularly the absence of contact forces and the misrepresentation of forces acting on the blocks. The lateral acceleration of the vertical block is debated, with some arguing it will equal that of the horizontal block due to their connection, while others suggest the dynamics change if the larger block is not fixed. The importance of accurately depicting forces in a free body diagram is emphasized, as it is crucial for understanding the system's behavior. Overall, the conversation highlights the complexities of analyzing motion in interconnected systems.
  • #61
sysprog said:
Wouldn't there have to be an external rightward force on the descending ##m## block for that to occur?
No. The middle block moves leftward away from the right hand block which stays more or less in place.

The middle block is subject to a leftward force from the pulley. The right hand block is subject to no such force -- until the cord becomes sufficiently non-vertical anyway.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #62
Why would it do that? Why wouldn't there have to be an external force holding it in place? Wouldn't something like this make more sense?

1642305469270.png
 
Last edited:
  • #63
sysprog said:
Why would it do that? Why wouldn't there have to be an external force holding it in place?
Absent a horizontal force, the right side block stays in place. You have not identified a leftward force acting on the right side block.

There are exactly two forces that act on the right side block:

1. Gravity. Downward. Its horizontal component is zero.
2. Tension. Upward. Unless the right side block is separated from the middle block, its horizontal component is zero.

Please identify the force that causes the right side block to move leftward without having it move away from the middle block since you claim that it never does so.
sysprog said:
Wouldn't something like this make more sense?
Excuse me. You are contemplating a wire frame constructed specifically to make the apparatus do something that it was not designed to do?! No. That is most definitely not what I am talking about. Do not be silly.

Also, please use your words. Diagrams are nice, but verbal descriptions of what the diagram is intended to depict are helpful.
 
  • #64
jbriggs444 said:
Absent a horizontal force, the right side block stays in place. You have not identified a leftward force acting on the right side block.
What about the leftward tension of the top ##m## block? Doesn't that act on the hanging ##m## block via the cord?
jbriggs444 said:
There are exactly two forces that act on the right side block:

1. Gravity. Downward. Its horizontal component is zero.
2. Tension. Upward. Unless the right side block is separated from the middle block, its horizontal component is zero.
Isn't the leftward tension of the top block a third force? How would such separation introduce a horizontal component? Wouldn't it have to have been there from the outset?
jbriggs444 said:
Please identify the force that causes the right side block to move leftward without having it move away from the middle block since you claim that it never does so.
Again, the leftward tension of the top ##m## block, right?
jbriggs444 said:
Excuse me. You are contemplating a wire frame constructed specifically to make the apparatus do something that it was not designed to do?! No. That is most definitely not what I am talking about. Do not be silly.
Haven't you been saying that the right block doesn't move leftward when the '##M## + pulley' object does? If that were so, then what would counteract the leftward tension of the top block impelling the right side ##m## block leftward ?

I attempted an illustration of an external force to do that counteracting, and you seem to dismiss that as my being silly, but I don't seee a good reason why it's not a reasonable depiction, not of the situation as originally postulated, but of the situation as it would, as far as I know, have to be for the right side ##m## block to remain laterally stationary while the '##M## + pulley' object moved leftward ##-## can you please say why some kind of external restraint would not be necessary to keep the right block from remaining vertical wrt to the pulley, rather than wrt the ground?
 
Last edited:
  • #65
sysprog said:
I attempted an illustration of an external force to do that counteracting, and you seem to dismiss that as my being silly, but I don't seee a good reason why it's not a reasonable depiction, not of the situation as originally postulated, but of the situation as it would, as far as I know, have to be for the right side ##m## block to remain laterally stationary while the '##M## + pulley' object moved leftward ##-##.
Let's look at the initial motion as several stages:

1) The side mass falls a small distance vertically under gravity.

2) it pulls the top mass a small distance to the right.

3) An internal force at the pulley moves the large block a very small distance to the left.

Note that the CoM (horizontal component) of the system has not changed and a gap has opened up between the large block and the side block.

Now, we look at the next short time interval.

1) The side block falls a little further, but is also pulled to the left by the angled cord.

2) The top block moves a bit more to the right.

3) The large block is pushed a bit more to the left.

Note that if the block is large, we soon get to the scenario where the leftwards motion of the side block equals or exceeds the small leftward motion of the large block. There must be a small equilibrium angle, which could be calculated.

I think I have to point out that your mechanics in this thread is wild and woolly and represents more of an abuse than a use of Newton's laws!

I suggest you take a step back and really try to understand what I've just written. Don't jump in with "that can't be right because ...". We've spent enough time between us arguing against your version of Newton's laws. The time has come for you to focus on the correct analyses in this thread and really try to understand why we are right.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Lnewqban and Steve4Physics
  • #66
Hi @sysprog. You have hit a ‘blind-spot’, so forget about the original problem for a moment. Think about this one:

You hang a pendulum (small ball on a string) from the roof of your car, and accelerate left.

Q1. Is the ball in equilibrium? I.e. do the forces on the ball balance?

Q2. What individual forces act the ball? If the resultant of these forces is non-zero, in what direction does it act?

Q3. What happens to the string?
 
  • #67
But there are horizontal forces: One is at the mass lying on the block, and then
berkeman said:
So, after 3 pages of discussion, can I please put the word "simple" in the thread title in quotes? Please, please? When I first clicked into this thread I thought it was simple, until I saw that the supporting surface was frictionless... :smile:
The problem is "simple" when using the right tools, which obviously is the action principle. Analyzing it with free-body diagrams (for me the most complicated subject in mechanics I can think of) is at least tricky if not impossible.
 
  • Like
Likes berkeman
  • #68
vanhees71 said:
The problem is "simple" when using the right tools, which obviously is the action principle. Analyzing it with free-body diagrams (for me the most complicated subject in mechanics I can think of) is at least tricky if not impossible.
We have a fairly simple solution for the case where the side block is constrained to move with the large block. But, not for the case where the side block may swing away from the large block. That looks quite complicated.
 
  • Like
Likes Lnewqban and vanhees71
  • #69
sysprog said:
What about the leftward tension of the top ##m## block? Doesn't that act on the hanging ##m## block via the cord?
No. That is not how tension and pulleys work.

What matters for the effect of tension on the side block is the direction of the cord where it contacts the side block. One can look at the tension in the last millimeter of [ideal] cord and the direction of the last millimeter of [ideal] cord and determine the resulting force applied at its point of attachment.

The cord between top block and pulley is horizontal. It exerts a horizontal force at its attachment point on the top block.

The cord between pulley and bottom block is vertical. It exerts a vertical force at its attachment point on the side block.

The interaction with the pulley is more interesting. The cord exerts a uniform radial force along a 90 degree arc of the ideal pulley's surface. The net of this is a force whose magnitude is ##\sqrt{2}## times tension at an angle 45 degrees below the horizontal.

Of course, Newton's third law still applies. The cord is subject to a force from its two attachment points and from the pulley. Since it is an ideal cord and since this means that it is massless, the forces on the cord must sum to zero. And indeed they do. We have a leftward force of magnitude T plus a downward force of magnitude T plus an up-and-to-the-rightward force of magnitude ##\sqrt{2}T##. They sum to zero. Life is still good and the laws of physics still hold.

The side block is not subject to any magical horizontal force transmitted through a vertical section of cord. That would be a shear force. Ideal strings, threads, ropes and cords do not do shear.

Edit to add...

I've never done the coursework on continuum mechanics where this stuff might be discussed, but @Dale and @Doc Al have let enough leak through over the years that I have a basic grasp.

In first year physics one treats tension as a force that has particular behaviors. It is always parallel to the cord. It is uniform over the length of an ideal cord. It is transmitted unchanged in magnitude over ideal pulleys.

It turns out that there is a deeper and mathematically correct way to think about tension instead. It is not a force at all. It is a particular condition of stress in the cord. It is given by the stress tensor.

Expressed in component form, a tensor is a matrix. For stress within a three-dimensional body it is a 3 by 3 matrix. Its component values are force components per unit area at a point within the volume of the body. There are three directions for the force components. And there are three orthogonal planes on which a directed area can be measured. So there are nine components total.

For a cord under uniform pure tension along its length and a coordinate system aligned nicely with the cord, a pure tension of ##T## results in a stress tensor of
$$\left[ {\begin{array}{ccc}
-T & 0 & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 0
\end{array} } \right]$$For an ideal cord, this tensor value will be present at every point within the volume of the cord. [As it passes over an ideal pulley, the stress will change. For a pulley aligned with the coordinate system and a 90 degree turn, a different diagonal element will then have the ##-T## term].

If you perform a tensor multiplication of the stress tensor times a directed area, you get a vector for the force transmitted by the material across that area. For a tensor that corresponds to tension in a cord, it will turn out that no matter how you slice across the cord, the product will be a vector force parallel to the cord at the point of the cut.

That is the mathematics that goes behind the statement that the direction of the last millimeter of cord is what matters.

More generally, one can use the tensor formalism to do beautiful things like computing the power transmitted through a shaft or belt as a surface integral of local stress times incremental area times local velocity over a chosen slice.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes vanhees71 and PeroK
  • #70
For the record, the tension in the cord (for the variation of this problem for which we have a solution) can be calculated from the acceleration of the top block:
$$T = m(\ddot x + \ddot X) = \frac{M + m}{2M + 3m}mg$$And, confirmed by using the acceleration of the side block:
$$(mg - T) = m\ddot x \ \Rightarrow \ T = m(g - \ddot x) = (1 - \frac{M + 2m}{2M + 3m})mg = \frac{M + m}{2M + 3m}mg$$
 
  • Like
Likes vanhees71
  • #71
jbriggs444 said:
The interaction with the pulley is more interesting. The cord exerts a uniform radial force along a 90 degree arc of the ideal pulley's surface. The net of this is a force whose magnitude is ##\sqrt{2}## times tension at an angle 45 degrees below the horizontal.
And, we can test this claim! This says that we have a horizontal force from the pulley on the large block of ##T##. (And, likewise, a vertical component of ##T## downwards.) This would give the horizontal acceleration of the large block and side block of:
$$\ddot X = -\frac{T}{M+m} =-\frac{mg}{2M + 3m}$$As expected.
 
  • Like
Likes vanhees71 and jbriggs444
  • #72
jbriggs444 said:
The cord between pulley and bottom block is vertical. It exerts a vertical force at its attachment point on the side block.
That's true initially. But when motion occurs, the cord between pulley and side block is not vertical. If it were, there would be no horizontal component of tension to give the side block its horizontal acceleration.

jbriggs444 said:
The interaction with the pulley is more interesting. The cord exerts a uniform radial force along a 90 degree arc of the ideal pulley's surface. The net of this is a force whose magnitude is ##\sqrt{2}## times tension at an angle 45 degrees below the horizontal.
.
We have a leftward force of magnitude T plus a downward force of magnitude T plus an up-and-to-the-rightward force of magnitude ##\sqrt{2}T##. They sum to zero. Life is still good and the laws of physics still hold.
I think that, when acceleration occurs, there are different tensions in the horizontal and near-vertical sections of the cord. Also the block may not have a square cross-section. So finding the force (magnitude and direction) on the pulley is quite tricky.

Edited.
 
  • #73
Steve4Physics said:
That's true initially. But when motion occurs, the cord between pulley and side block is not vertical. If it were, there would be no horizontal component of tension to give the side block its horizontal acceleration.
Yes indeed.

Steve4Physics said:
I think that, when acceleration occurs, there are different tensions in the horizontal and near-vertical sections of the cord. Also the block may not have a square cross-section. So finding the force (magnitude and direction) on the pulley is quite tricky.
For an ideal pulley, the magnitudes of the two tensions will always remain identical. That is what ideal pulleys do. They equalize the magnitudes of two tensions while allowing their directions to change.

Of course the angle between the directions will shift from 90 degrees through a range of other values as the side block swings.

Edit: I may have misread your claim as saying that the tensions in the two cord segments will differ from each other. I claim that they will always be equal to each other. However, I agree that the shared tension value will vary over time.
 
Last edited:
  • #74
If we look for the equilibrium angle ##\theta##, where the side block and the large block both have horizontal acceleration ##\ddot X## and the side block has vertical acceleration ##\ddot y##, with ##y = x \cos \theta##, then I get the following equations:
$$m(\ddot x + \ddot X) = T$$$$M\ddot X = -T\cos \theta$$$$m\ddot X = -T\sin \theta$$$$m\ddot y = mg - T\cos \theta \ \Rightarrow \ m\ddot x \cos \theta = mg -T\cos \theta$$This gives the solution:
$$\tan \theta = \frac m M$$$$T = \frac g 2(\frac m M)\sqrt{M^2 + m^2}$$$$\ddot x = \frac g 2(\frac 1 M)\sqrt{M^2 + m^2}$$$$\ddot X = -\frac g 2(\frac 1 M)\frac{\sqrt{M^2 + m^2}}{1 + \sqrt{M^2 + m^2}}$$
 
  • Like
Likes jbriggs444
  • #75
jbriggs444 said:
For an ideal pulley, the magnitudes of the two tensions will always remain identical. That is what ideal pulleys do. They equalize the magnitudes of two tensions while allowing their directions to change.
.
Edit: I may have misread your claim as saying that the tensions in the two cord segments will differ from each other. I claim that they will always be equal to each other. However, I agree that the shared tension value will vary over time.
Yes. You’re right. Apologies. For some reason my brain added friction at the pulley.
 
  • #76
PeroK said:
$$m\ddot X = -T\sin \theta$$
I think that equation is wrong. In order for ##\theta## to be constant, the side block must be moving away from the large block at an acceleration of ##\ddot x \sin \theta##. That force equation ought to be:
$$m(\ddot X + \ddot x \sin \theta) = -T\sin \theta$$Which makes the solution more complicated.
 
  • #77
It just gets a lot messier with the revised equations. E.g. I get:
$$\frac m M = \frac{2\tan \theta}{1 - \sin \theta}$$$$\ddot X = -\frac{2 \sin \theta}{1 + \sin \theta}\ddot x$$$$\big ( \frac M m + \frac{1 + \sin \theta}{2\tan \theta} \big )\ddot X = -g$$I don't propose to spend any more time on this!

PS although the equilibrium solution is quite simple:$$\ddot X = -(\tan \theta)g$$$$\ddot x = \frac{1 + \sin \theta}{2\cos \theta}g$$Where ##\theta## can be obtained numerically from ##\frac M m## using the above equation.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes vanhees71

Similar threads

Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
Replies
31
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
7K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
7K