What does Poynting Theorem reveal about electrodynamic losses?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of Poynting Theorem in understanding electrodynamic losses, particularly in the context of energy conservation and the relationship between electric fields, currents, and energy dissipation. Participants explore theoretical aspects and interpretations of the theorem, including its application to conductive losses and energy flux in electromagnetic fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents Poynting Theorem and suggests that conductive losses may not fully capture the complexity of electrodynamic losses, expressing a desire for further insights.
  • Another participant agrees with the initial interpretation but elaborates on the energy density of the electromagnetic field and the role of the Poynting vector in describing energy flux and losses.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the Poynting Theorem can be viewed as a conservation theorem, indicating that energy loss occurs due to work done on charges or energy flowing out of a defined volume.
  • There is a mention that the Poynting vector can describe energy transfer even in the absence of traditional radiated waves, suggesting a broader interpretation of energy loss mechanisms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the significance of Poynting Theorem in understanding energy losses, but there are varying interpretations regarding the completeness of conductive loss explanations and the broader implications of energy transfer described by the theorem.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the theorem's implications without resolving the nuances of energy loss mechanisms or the completeness of the interpretations presented. There is an acknowledgment of the complexity involved in the relationship between electric fields, currents, and energy dissipation.

yungman
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Poynting Theorem stated:

\vec E \cdot \vec J = - \frac 1 2 \frac {\partial} {\partial t} ( \epsilon E^2 + \frac 1 {\mu} B^2) - \frac 1 {\mu} \nabla \cdot( \vec E \times \vec B)

In pure electrodynamic point of view,

\vec E \cdot \vec J = \sigma E^2 which is nothing more than conductive loss ( resistance ohmic loss).

But I have a suspicion that is more to it than this...nothing is that simple. Please tell me what I missed.

Thanks

Alan
 
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That's precisely what it is! Perhaps it's easiest to grasp by bringig the first term of the right-hand side of your equation to the left and the EJ term to the right and integrate the whole expression over a finite volume.

From Noether's theorem you know that

\mathcal{E}=\frac{1}{2} (\vec{E} \cdot \vec{D}+\vec{B} \cdot \vec{H})

is the energy density of the electromagnetic field (including polarization and magnetization effects of the bound charges/magnetic dipoles in the medium).

The Poynting vector,

\vec{S}=\vec{E} \times \vec{H}

is the energy flux. So manipulating your equation in the way indicated above, you get

\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} E_{\text{field}}=-\int_{V} \mathrm{d}^3 \vec{x} \vec{J} \cdot \vec{E} - \int_{\partial V} \mathrm{d}^2 \vec{F} \cdot \vec{S}.

For the term with the Poynting vector, I've used Gauß's integral law. This equation means that the total field energy gets lost by the work done, i.e., to the motion of the charges, upon which the em. field acts and by radiation of em. waves, which transports energy through the surface of the volume under consideration.
 
Thanks, that make me feel a lot better.
 
Yes, the Poynting Theorem is really the electrodynamic work-energy conservation theorem. If the total energy contained in the electromagnetic fields decreases over time it must be because the fields did work on charges and created currents, or because the energy simply flowed out of the volume of interest.

Technically, the Poynting vector just describes energy crossing a surface, which can happen even if we don't have traditional radiated waves.
 

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