Question regarding a rolling ball

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanics of a rolling ball on a rough surface, particularly focusing on the role of friction in maintaining motion without slipping. Participants explore concepts related to forces acting on the ball, the nature of friction, and the implications of rolling motion under various conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that under ideal conditions, a rolling ball would continue indefinitely without changing velocity, as the normal and gravitational forces cancel out, leaving friction as the only force acting.
  • Others argue that friction only arises when the ball slides, and when rolling without slipping, the point of contact has zero relative velocity, resulting in no frictional force acting on the ball.
  • A participant questions how friction can change the ball's energy if it does no work while rolling, suggesting that friction initially creates torque and angular momentum, but once rolling without slipping, the ball moves freely.
  • Some participants discuss the effects of surface irregularities and deformation, suggesting that these factors contribute to energy loss and rolling resistance, even in the absence of sliding friction.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of a ball rolling in a zero-gravity environment, with participants debating whether it would stop immediately upon leaving a surface or continue in its trajectory.
  • Several participants express confusion regarding the presence of friction in free body diagrams, questioning the assumptions made about frictional forces when the ball is rolling at a constant speed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the role of friction in rolling motion, with no consensus reached on the conditions under which friction acts or its effects on energy and motion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include assumptions about ideal conditions, the definitions of friction in different contexts, and the complexities of energy transfer during rolling motion that remain unresolved.

aftershock
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Hi,

This has been bugging me for a little while now. Imagine a ball is rolling along on a rough surface without slipping. Under ideal conditions it will just continue rolling indefinitely right?

However, if you were to draw a free body diagram the normal and gravitational force would cancel out and you'd have friction. How does friction not cause the velocity of the ball to change when it's the only force acting?
 
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The frictional force on the ball only arises when the ball slides. A rule of thumb is that the frictional force is proportional to the difference in velocity between the surfaces in contact. There is no frictional force on the ball when the ball rolls without slipping, because the point on the ball touching the surface has zero velocity relative to the surface. This is the reason why cars use wheels rather than something that slides--e.g. skis.
 
Jolb said:
The frictional force on the ball only arises when the ball slides.

Can you expand on this a little? It's my understanding that the frictional force only does work when the ball slides. If the ball is rolling the friction force is still acting (even though it does no work) otherwise the ball would just spin around in place instead of rolling along.
 
Well, what is work? It's equal to the change in energy. If friction can't do work on a rolling ball, how can it change its energy and slow it down?

Basically, friction creates a torque on the ball initially giving it some angular momentum about it's center of mass, but once the ball is rolling without slipping, there is no more force - the ball is just rolling freely and feels no friction.

Real balls slow down because as they roll over little bumps and irregularities on a surface they rub and scrape against them.
 
aftershock said:
Can you expand on this a little? It's my understanding that the frictional force only does work when the ball slides. If the ball is rolling the friction force is still acting (even though it does no work) otherwise the ball would just spin around in place instead of rolling along.

Imagine we had a ball rolling on a table in the International Space Station (there is no "gravity"; everyone in the station feels zero g's). The ball continues to roll along the table until it reaches the edge of the table. What happens once it rolls off the table? Does it stop rolling the instant it passes the edge of the table? That is what you suggest.

In reality, the ball would continue to "roll" as if it were still in contact with a fictitious table along the same linear trajectory it was following when it left the table. This is because the ball feels no torque and thus continues at a constant angular velocity, as dipole has explained.
 
The model of a rolling ball with friction needs to include a description of what causes the friction. The interface between ball and table must have finite thickness and that implies a variation of relative speeds over that small distance. (Radius and circumference) it's the same with gear teeth, which always rub a bit and lose energy during rotation. This could imply some energy loss with rotation.
 
+Even if completely smooth, the ball and table will deform in such a way that the ball's centre of mass is always slightly rolling uphill. The constant deformation will cause a slow transfer of kinetic energy into heat.
 
Under ideal conditions it will just continue rolling indefinitely right?

what ideal conditions?

However, if you were to draw a free body diagram the normal and gravitational force would cancel out and you'd have friction.

this is not an 'ideal condition.

Post #7 hits the nail on the head, but also is not 'ideal conditions'...

More here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_friction

some practical insights are included like:
Factors that contribute to rolling resistance are the (amount of) deformation of the object, the deformation of the surface, and movement below the surface. Additional contributing factors include wheel diameter, forward speed[2] load on wheel, surface adhesion, sliding, and relative micro-sliding between the surfaces of contact. It depends very much on the material of the wheel or tire and the sort of ground.
 
Let me rephrase my question.

Imagine the ball is rolling along at 10 m/s to the right and I draw a free body diagram. I would have the normal force up, the gravitational force down, and the frictional force to the left.

If I add all the forces up I would have a net force of friction. If I set that equal to ma I'd be wrong since the ball is rolling at a constant 10 m/s. What's wrong with this?
 
  • #10
aftershock said:
Let me rephrase my question.

Imagine the ball is rolling along at 10 m/s to the right and I draw a free body diagram. I would have the normal force up, the gravitational force down, and the frictional force to the left.

If I add all the forces up I would have a net force of friction. If I set that equal to ma I'd be wrong since the ball is rolling at a constant 10 m/s. What's wrong with this?
Why are you assuming a friction force?
 
  • #11
Doc Al said:
Why are you assuming a friction force?

If the friction force wasn't present wouldn't the ball spin in place instead of rolling forward?
 
  • #12
aftershock said:
If the friction force wasn't present wouldn't the ball spin in place instead of rolling forward?
No. Once the ball is rolling without slipping along a horizontal surface there is no friction force involved. (Except for the dissipative 'rolling friction', which I assume you wish to ignore.)
 

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