Quietly Pump Water 11ft - Ideas for Sump Pump Solutions

[gloo]

Is the venturi system on an automated control? Or do you have to turn on a valve on your water main? If the system kicks in on its own, then yea you have to leave it open. However, if it is truly a system for when the power goes out and the battery backup is down, then there should be no reason to have it capable of running while you are home. If you want to run that pump, do you have to open any valves or anything?

Venturi has a float that is pushed up and allows water in. I am thinking why bother having back up battery one and just using the water pressured sump pump as back up.

Yes, i just need to turn the water valve on that connects to the venturi.

 

[gloo]

Here's a condensate pump that is 55 gph at 15' head -- but I'm not sure that that will be big enough. Sump pumps are sized the way they are sized for a reason -- that's what typical sumps need!

http://www.zoro.com/i/G3199585/?utm...INha1JT6WYfRZl6dxx7JQFW2YgVLQRnsfoaAl7a8P8HAQ

...because here's a randomly selected normal sump pump that flows 60x as much!
http://www.zoro.com/i/G3343225/?utm...irDHQibqfmnG9NYWhiu7s15-CXM3UewXcUaAo-z8P8HAQ

Another option might be to install a speed controller on your current pump and slow it down a bit. That will make it quieter. Something like this would probably work:
http://www.hydroponics.net/i/138604

Russ, I have been giving consideration to your idea of this speed controller. I liked that idea but kind of got lost in all the other conversations. Do you know if this would work for pond pump? I remembered I got a pond pump that pumps out 800 gph. It would be great if i can reduce it with either

1. smaller tube diameter (providing it doesn't break the pump)
2. using this speed controller. -- but the specs said something about how you can't use it for slow start or soft start motors. Do you know if that applies to the sump pumps or my pond pump??

 

[gloo]

Thank so much to all the contributors for my problem! Russ Watters, DaveC, Q Goest, Danger, Travis King, Ron L, rbelli 1, I really appreciate all the input.

Here is the flow rate from what I gather, I will put down all the specs and provide what I calculated to be the flow rate

diameter of sump pit: 18.5 inches (there are 2 , one is over flow pit of same size)
time to move up 12 inches : 13.4 minutes

It took basically 13.4 minutes to to move up 12 inches in both sump pits. At a diameter of approximately 18.5 inches, the volume in gallons for both pits is about 28 gallons. So per hour, I arrive at 125 GPH of water to fill both pits.

Can someone verify the calculations?

Does anyone have any suggestions now that the flow rate of 125 GPH is known?

thanks guys.

 

[RonL]

Thank so much to all the contributors for my problem! Russ Watters, DaveC, Q Goest, Danger, Travis King, Ron L, rbelli 1, I really appreciate all the input.

Here is the flow rate from what I gather, I will put down all the specs and provide what I calculated to be the flow rate

diameter of sump pit: 18.5 inches (there are 2 , one is over flow pit of same size)
time to move up 12 inches : 13.4 minutes

It took basically 13.4 minutes to to move up 12 inches in both sump pits. At a diameter of approximately 18.5 inches, the volume in gallons for both pits is about 28 gallons. So per hour, I arrive at 125 GPH of water to fill both pits.

Can someone verify the calculations?

Does anyone have any suggestions now that the flow rate of 125 GPH is known?

thanks guys.

Hi gloo,
I have to ask, what is the water table elevation ? how high in the basement would water stand if all systems failed to operate for an extended time ?
It sounds like this is a continual seepage, does the rate change a lot after rains ? or do you live on the downhill side of some type of water flow ?
I think you can make a speed control work, but be careful that you don't change the design operation to where you are paying almost as much to run the motor and only pump half the volume.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo,
I have to ask, what is the water table elevation ? how high in the basement would water stand if all systems failed to operate for an extended time ?
It sounds like this is a continual seepage, does the rate change a lot after rains ? or do you live on the downhill side of some type of water flow ?
I think you can make a speed control work, but be careful that you don't change the design operation to where you are paying almost as much to run the motor and only pump half the volume.

Thanks Ron...do you think that restriciting the flow with a smaller tube will work without damaging pond pump?

 

[RonL]

Thanks Ron...do you think that restriciting the flow with a smaller tube will work without damaging pond pump?

As best I recall you never restrict intake and you can choke the discharge but never completely (that has to do with heat buildup in the seal area).
You might look at diaphragm pumps these can be air operated (or electric) and they are positive displacement pumps that can be operated at very slow speeds, here a speed controller would give just a bout any flow you need.

 

[Travis_King]

Venturi has a float that is pushed up and allows water in. I am thinking why bother having back up battery one and just using the water pressured sump pump as back up.

Yes, i just need to turn the water valve on that connects to the venturi.

So, if you need to open that valve anyway, why not leave the discharge valve (the noisy one) closed when it's not in operation. You'll get rid of that noise, and since you have to fiddle with the system for it to run anyway, it's not putting you at any risk.

About the battery backup. Basically, the venturi system isn't really ideal. You use a lot of potable water to clear out that sump. Depending on where you live, it is likely preferable to have the battery backup rather than the venturi. Say it's raining, and your towns sewage system is inundated with water already. now, instead of just adding your sump water to the sewage system, you're adding probably 4+ times the amount of potable water as well. Additionally, as you have to open the valve from the main by hand, it's not a reliable backup system. Your sump should operate with the main sump pump as the primary operator, the battery back up as a secondary method of protection, and the venturi system if all else fails (power is out and battery has run out of juice).

I wouldn't change the pipe diameter, it's not worth it and the noise and vibration will only get louder as the fluid velocity increases (as it likely will if you switch to a smaller diameter pipe). you could install a ball valve after the check valve and close it slightly (leaving it 75%, 50%, 25% open). This will increase the head in the system and cause the pump to "run left" on its curve, giving you lower flow for much more minimal cost than all new piping (not to mention that at the flowrates here, the head differential between 2" and 1.5" pipe is very small, even between 2" and 1" it's not very big). But beware, if the valve is throttling the main sump pump's flow, and the pump fails, it may adversely affect the operation of the battery backup.

 

[DaveC426913]

Russ, I have been giving consideration to your idea of this speed controller. I liked that idea but kind of got lost in all the other conversations. Do you know if this would work for pond pump? I remembered I got a pond pump that pumps out 800 gph. It would be great if i can reduce it with either

1. smaller tube diameter (providing it doesn't break the pump)
2. using this speed controller. -- but the specs said something about how you can't use it for slow start or soft start motors. Do you know if that applies to the sump pumps or my pond pump??

I'll reiterate: reducing the flow either via restricting it or lowering the voltage/ampage are both hard on motors that aren't desing

 

[gloo]

So, if you need to open that valve anyway, why not leave the discharge valve (the noisy one) closed when it's not in operation. You'll get rid of that noise, and since you have to fiddle with the system for it to run anyway, it's not putting you at any risk.

About the battery backup. Basically, the venturi system isn't really ideal. You use a lot of potable water to clear out that sump. Depending on where you live, it is likely preferable to have the battery backup rather than the venturi. Say it's raining, and your towns sewage system is inundated with water already. now, instead of just adding your sump water to the sewage system, you're adding probably 4+ times the amount of potable water as well. Additionally, as you have to open the valve from the main by hand, it's not a reliable backup system. Your sump should operate with the main sump pump as the primary operator, the battery back up as a secondary method of protection, and the venturi system if all else fails (power is out and battery has run out of juice).

I wouldn't change the pipe diameter, it's not worth it and the noise and vibration will only get louder as the fluid velocity increases (as it likely will if you switch to a smaller diameter pipe). you could install a ball valve after the check valve and close it slightly (leaving it 75%, 50%, 25% open). This will increase the head in the system and cause the pump to "run left" on its curve, giving you lower flow for much more minimal cost than all new piping (not to mention that at the flowrates here, the head differential between 2" and 1.5" pipe is very small, even between 2" and 1" it's not very big). But beware, if the valve is throttling the main sump pump's flow, and the pump fails, it may adversely affect the operation of the battery backup.

Great, that's fantastic advice Travis. Thank you

 

[gloo]

I'll reiterate: reducing the flow either via restricting it or lowering the voltage/ampage are both hard on motors that aren't desing

Thanks Dave...yes I am a little bit challenged mentally to remember all the details of the forum. I looked back and didn't see the answer on my question of choking the discharge.

But you are telling me using the speed controller is not a good idea?? Why is it ok for things like ceiling fan motors versus the motors on the pond pumps?

 

[gloo]

As best I recall you never restrict intake and you can choke the discharge but never completely (that has to do with heat buildup in the seal area).
You might look at diaphragm pumps these can be air operated (or electric) and they are positive displacement pumps that can be operated at very slow speeds, here a speed controller would give just a bout any flow you need.

Ron! This I have never seen or heard of. Can you tell me if there are ones that pump up to 12 feet of water in height and can do it slowly? Can you tell me if these are quiet? I seen some on youtube but can't tell how quiet they are.

If you can give me any advice on these I would be very appreciative.

G

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo,
I have to ask, what is the water table elevation ? how high in the basement would water stand if all systems failed to operate for an extended time ?
It sounds like this is a continual seepage, does the rate change a lot after rains ? or do you live on the downhill side of some type of water flow ?
I think you can make a speed control work, but be careful that you don't change the design operation to where you are paying almost as much to run the motor and only pump half the volume.

Oh sorry, the water can be just at lip of sump pit...or can be as high as 1 foot of water if the sump does not pump at all.

 

[gloo]

As best I recall you never restrict intake and you can choke the discharge but never completely (that has to do with heat buildup in the seal area).
You might look at diaphragm pumps these can be air operated (or electric) and they are positive displacement pumps that can be operated at very slow speeds, here a speed controller would give just a bout any flow you need.

Ok ...just saw one(air diaphram pump)...and they might be too loud. It has this constant air flicking sound as diaphram pulsates. Are there ones that are really silent? do you think putting them in a box would help?

 

[Danger]

Gonna have to get a plumber to fix a lot of things...just don't want to get rapped on the price. They are just rip off artist trying to charge like 100 bucks an hour for labour.

I missed this before, and must take objection to it. It's not cheap to be a plumber. When I became a locksmith, and formed my own company, I started at $20/hour. I got out of the business about 15 years ago at $50/hour because I couldn't afford to continue. (It was a flat-rate for most jobs, based upon the fact that one should take 20 minutes at what I used as my hourly-rate base.) Aside from arthritis, the main reason that I quit was because we became classified as a trade rather than a vocation. Even though I would have been grandfathered in, to maintain my license the new tools and upgrading courses that I would have needed would have cost me over $100,000. I had about $130 in the bank. I said to hell with it and took on more bartending shifts instead. What I told anyone who complained (and just as many tipped me as did complained) is that no matter how little time it took they weren't paying me for doing the work; they were paying me for knowing how to do it. Anybody can unlock someone's car, but how many have over $10,000 worth of manuals and custom tools, not to mention college fees from the past, to ensure that they can do it without damaging anything? (I have a sadistically amusing story along that line, but I don't want to derail the thread further.)

 

[gloo]

As best I recall you never restrict intake and you can choke the discharge but never completely (that has to do with heat buildup in the seal area).
You might look at diaphragm pumps these can be air operated (or electric) and they are positive displacement pumps that can be operated at very slow speeds, here a speed controller would give just a bout any flow you need.

Ron, I can't tell if the sound (youtube videos) are caused by air moving around and jamming or some other mechanical sound. You said there is difference between air and electric diaphrams?? Will electric be quieter? Or is it electric motor pushing air and other parts still causing loud noises?

 

[RonL]

Ron, I can't tell if the sound (youtube videos) are caused by air moving around and jamming or some other mechanical sound. You said there is difference between air and electric diaphrams?? Will electric be quieter? Or is it electric motor pushing air and other parts still causing loud noises?

Hi gloo,
You have a lot of good information already and I'm not sure why you seem to want to change what you have (I think it can be made to run very quite and be the least expensive thing) now with that said...I'll likely confirm my age here and give an example of something it sounds like you want to hear.
I have a very old (Gould) 4" trash pump (it has a broken diaphragm and no replacement that I can find) powered by 8 horsepower gas. If converted to electric and speed controlled, it could be reduced to a 1/2" intake and cycled at just one or two cycles per hour, I don't remember off the top of my head what the diaphragm chamber volume is (I think about 2 or 3 gallons). It would have to be leak free on the intake side and operated at slow speed because of the small intake line but...?
Lots of way to change things, unless you have that DIY creative mentality I think you should repair what you have , as it is.
I agree with Danger's comment, but also I have paid 85.00 per hour and received a new hire hand (first day on the job) to diagnose my AC system (it did turn out to be a recall job).
I feel that Travis King has given much good information, so I feel I have little else to offer, I'll extend my best wishes for your efforts to make the best decision for repairs:)

RonL

 

[gloo]

I missed this before, and must take objection to it. It's not cheap to be a plumber. When I became a locksmith, and formed my own company, I started at $20/hour. I got out of the business about 15 years ago at $50/hour because I couldn't afford to continue. (It was a flat-rate for most jobs, based upon the fact that one should take 20 minutes at what I used as my hourly-rate base.) Aside from arthritis, the main reason that I quit was because we became classified as a trade rather than a vocation. Even though I would have been grandfathered in, to maintain my license the new tools and upgrading courses that I would have needed would have cost me over $100,000. I had about $130 in the bank. I said to hell with it and took on more bartending shifts instead. What I told anyone who complained (and just as many tipped me as did complained) is that no matter how little time it took they weren't paying me for doing the work; they were paying me for knowing how to do it. Anybody can unlock someone's car, but how many have over $10,000 worth of manuals and custom tools, not to mention college fees from the past, to ensure that they can do it without damaging anything? (I have a sadistically amusing story along that line, but I don't want to derail the thread further.)

Danger, i am not against all trades. I tell you what i got charged..2 sump pumps worth about 320, and piping worth about 100 bucks. He worked for 5 hours, didn't do a good job, and i got charged 1300 plus tax. So i was being nice when I said 100 an hour. They always quote low (they said 900)...then it always goes higher. I feel gyped.

 

[Danger]

I feel gyped.

Given that experience, I agree with you with regard to that one company. I've heard of that happening in all various trades, but it's rare in Canada (the worst are fly-by-night building contractors such as unskilled roofers and some automotive mechanics); our fraud laws are pretty stringent. One of my most rigid (and self-destructive) rules was that I absolutely never exceeded a quote. I got burned a lot of times on that one. One (or several?) of the examples is the couple of times that I broke a customer's car window while either unlocking the vehicle or removing the door lock cylinder for either fitting a key or recoding it to a new one. I had an arrangement with one of the local glass companies that if it happened I would send the customer to them, they would have immediate priority service, and I would pay for it. In the 3 cases of that, I ended up paying $250 dollars to my friends at Crystal Glass on a job that I'd billed at (in the most expensive quote) $35. The absolute worst one, though, was when I quoted $500 or so (including the $300 price of the Medeco high-security locks) for a job that ended up taking me 4 days of non-stop work (except for sleeping on the floor once in a while and nibbling sandwiches; the house was still vacant at the time) and requiring the purchase of several new tools. When I tried to collect a month or so later, after they had moved in, the wife just flat-out said that I wasn't going to get paid and demanded that I leave her property. I tried to contact her husband, who is the one that hired me, several times both at home and at work with no response. About a year later, the authorities found him half-mummified in the house right where she'd killed him. She's been in the nut-house ever since.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo,
You have a lot of good information already and I'm not sure why you seem to want to change what you have (I think it can be made to run very quite and be the least expensive thing) now with that said...I'll likely confirm my age here and give an example of something it sounds like you want to hear.
I have a very old (Gould) 4" trash pump (it has a broken diaphragm and no replacement that I can find) powered by 8 horsepower gas. If converted to electric and speed controlled, it could be reduced to a 1/2" intake and cycled at just one or two cycles per hour, I don't remember off the top of my head what the diaphragm chamber volume is (I think about 2 or 3 gallons). It would have to be leak free on the intake side and operated at slow speed because of the small intake line but...?
Lots of way to change things, unless you have that DIY creative mentality I think you should repair what you have , as it is.
I agree with Danger's comment, but also I have paid 85.00 per hour and received a new hire hand (first day on the job) to diagnose my AC system (it did turn out to be a recall job).
I feel that Travis King has given much good information, so I feel I have little else to offer, I'll extend my best wishes for your efforts to make the best decision for repairs:)

RonL

Thanks for your help Ron. Yes I know that everyone here has given a lot of helpful ideas and the advice here is top notch from smart people. I do not have the technical and financial wherewithal to tinker much. The truth is, I am I trying to sell my house and this high water table issue may scare some people. I do not have too big an issue cause I am handy enough to just swap out a sump pump every few years. There are many many houses that were built in and around high water tables and they run sump pumps constantly. Most just accept it as something they will deal with. I just wanted something quiet to show that night time and sleep will not be an issue with the sound of a sump. I sleep no problems, and so does my daughter...but my wife is more sensitive although she sleeps fine. I just don't want someone to fear this feature.

I would love to be able to find a quiet pump that pumps slowly (100 gph) with decent lift (12 feet) for about 8 hours on some kind of timer...this would be for the night. The day will just be the regular sump. This is why i was such a pest in asking all these questions.

 

[Danger]

This is why i was such a pest in asking all these questions.

That's not being a pest; that's trying to find answers. That's what PF is here for.

So, I suppose that it's too late to suggest that you just fill your basement with rice and invite your neighbours over for pot-luck supper once in a while...?

 

[gloo]

That's not being a pest; that's trying to find answers. That's what PF is here for.

So, I suppose that it's too late to suggest that you just fill your basement with rice and invite your neighbours over for pot-luck supper once in a while...?

I will do that if it makes the world a better place Danger.

 

[Danger]

I will do that if it makes the world a better place Danger.

:D

 

[RonL]

Thanks for your help Ron. Yes I know that everyone here has given a lot of helpful ideas and the advice here is top notch from smart people. I do not have the technical and financial wherewithal to tinker much. The truth is, I am I trying to sell my house and this high water table issue may scare some people. I do not have too big an issue cause I am handy enough to just swap out a sump pump every few years. There are many many houses that were built in and around high water tables and they run sump pumps constantly. Most just accept it as something they will deal with. I just wanted something quiet to show that night time and sleep will not be an issue with the sound of a sump. I sleep no problems, and so does my daughter...but my wife is more sensitive although she sleeps fine. I just don't want someone to fear this feature.

I would love to be able to find a quiet pump that pumps slowly (100 gph) with decent lift (12 feet) for about 8 hours on some kind of timer...this would be for the night. The day will just be the regular sump. This is why i was such a pest in asking all these questions.

I really would like to hear the specs of water table and how deep the storm drain might be, I understand you need to pump up to get out of the basement, but how low below discharge point is the storm drain ? there might be some siphon possibilities.
Is this a steady flow or does anything cause increase or decrease, and what temperature is the water ? if it stays the same temperature you might have some heat pump value ?

 

[AlanC]

Does anyone know much about electrical timers? Is there one that is reliable and can be programmed to turn on for 10 min and then shut off? Is it better to get the ones with dials rather than digital timers which could possibly go wonky after a year or two?

G

I use various timers for Security System Design The Altronix 6062 can be setup for 4 different functions and would do a 10 min then off after triggered

http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=2&model_num=6062
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006TZEDS/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[DaveC426913]

But you are telling me using the speed controller is not a good idea?? Why is it ok for things like ceiling fan motors versus the motors on the pond pumps?

Unfortunately, I cannot back up my suspicion with facts.

 

[gloo]

I really would like to hear the specs of water table and how deep the storm drain might be, I understand you need to pump up to get out of the basement, but how low below discharge point is the storm drain ? there might be some siphon possibilities.
Is this a steady flow or does anything cause increase or decrease, and what temperature is the water ? if it stays the same temperature you might have some heat pump value ?

Ron, the storm drain is higher up than basement floor...that is my problem. I did everything i could to try to adapt siphon but it won't do unless I drill a hole to the other side of the ravine across the street (illegal).

The water table has gotten to the lip of my sump pit and stayed there for a week...but then i got a flood alarm and had to turn sump back on. Way back in construction, it went about 10 inches above my basement floor. Temperature? Not sure...i guess it's steady.

 

[gloo]

Unfortunately, I cannot back up my suspicion with facts.

I value your opinion and appreciate your help Dave. I have an aquarium pump and really want to try that speed controller. I wish Russ would come back and give me some guidance on what he knows. I talked to Home Depot and Lowe's personnel and they don't know anything about controllers other than it is used on ceiling fans.

I was wondering if controlling the amps or power to slow it down will also mean the max head will be lower.

 

[gloo]

I use various timers for Security System Design The Altronix 6062 can be setup for 4 different functions and would do a 10 min then off after triggered

http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=2&model_num=6062
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006TZEDS/?tag=pfamazon01-20

So using this timer, I can indefinitely run a pump for say 5 min at a time every 20 min? How complicated are these things?

Also Alan, I can't figure out how this thing works? Does it plug into a power source or what? I ready easy to use but it looks complicated ...like some kind of semiconductor chip. Can you direct me to some site that explanis it better. I am at Altronix...I can't make much of it.

 

[Travis_King]

I'll reiterate: reducing the flow either via restricting it or lowering the voltage/ampage are both hard on motors that aren't desing

While I agree that in this case it probably shouldn't be done, I disagree with this point in principle.
Once again, OP, I do not think a speed controller is a good idea here. It will not provide you any real benefits as the first thing to go drastically down when speed is reduced is head, not flow. As these pumps tend to be low head anyway, you will likely waste lots of money for very little reduction in flow.

If a pump system is running far to the right of the BEP on its curve, then providing a flow restriction in the line will help make the pump more efficient and will be easier on the pump and motor alike.

Similarly, using a speed controller is an ideal way of controlling the operation of a pump in varying conditions. By using a speed controller in conjunction with other sensory equipment, one can maintain the pump at its most optimum operating point and add significant life to both pump and motor.

Sure, one can go too far with either of these methods, but properly applied, these are two extremely common ways of controlling flow, optimizing pump efficiency, and balancing systems.

If you were intending to say that perhaps these sump pumps are not intended to be run on variable speed controllers, then that may be true, depending on the manufacturer's recommendations. Likewise, if this pump is already at or to the left of its BEP, then increasing the system head will be hard on the motor and will likely decrease the pump's useful life.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you were intending to say that perhaps these sump pumps are not intended to be run on variable speed controllers, then that may be true, depending on the manufacturer's recommendations.

That is exactly what I'm saying, yes. I am not stating it as fact, though. I'm stating it as a general caution. Verify with the manufacturer whether any given piece of equipment will operate with reduced wattage.But you do make an excellent point, that varying the pump speed will have a dramatic and deleterious effect on lift.