Quietly Pump Water 11ft - Ideas for Sump Pump Solutions

[Travis_King]

I'll add a few more points here:

1) If you are hearing vibrations throughout the house, I would seriously suspect vibrations as a result of the connections between the pipes and the floor joists. If you can find a way to support your sump piping from the foundation (with, perhaps, insulating supports) I think that will be drastically reduced.

2) If you have to open a valve before the venturi will run (i.e. it is not a fully automatic backup) then be sure to close that valve on the discharge when it is not in operation. If there isn't one already, install a check valve in the line.

3) Leave the battery backup, it's an important part of your system given your high water table. It gives you time to realize there's an issue and turn on your venturi if your main sump dies.

4) Diaphragm pumps are nice, but they are rarely quiet. I don't have much experience with electric diaphragm pumps. The air ones are way too loud. I would suspect that an electric centrifugal pump is much quieter than a diaphragm pump. If you're still in the mood to look around for other solutions. You could try finding a peristaltic pump that fits your flow rate (this is also a positive displacement pump). Positive displacement pumps are not kinetic energy pumps like the centrifugal ones, they move water up by displacing volume. This is both good and bad. It is good because if you find one that will pump at your desired flowrate, you don't have to worry about it reaching the destination, it is moved along by the volume of water behind it, so as long as there is water, it will keep moving. This is dangerous, however, because if for some reason your pipes get clogged or a valve is closed, it will continue to pump and build pressure until the pipe bursts or pump ruptures, both very expensive problems. It's up to you if you'd like to search around for these, but I wouldn't recommend it.

5) Don't use a timer. It is a bad idea for a person with your water table. I don't even know if building codes allow it. The only way to increase the time between pump cycles without risking flooding is to increase the size of the sump, or increase the level at which the main sump turns on.

 

[gloo]

I'll add a few more points here:

1) If you are hearing vibrations throughout the house, I would seriously suspect vibrations as a result of the connections between the pipes and the floor joists. If you can find a way to support your sump piping from the foundation (with, perhaps, insulating supports) I think that will be drastically reduced.

2) If you have to open a valve before the venturi will run (i.e. it is not a fully automatic backup) then be sure to close that valve on the discharge when it is not in operation. If there isn't one already, install a check valve in the line.

3) Leave the battery backup, it's an important part of your system given your high water table. It gives you time to realize there's an issue and turn on your venturi if your main sump dies.

4) Diaphragm pumps are nice, but they are rarely quiet. I don't have much experience with electric diaphragm pumps. The air ones are way too loud. I would suspect that an electric centrifugal pump is much quieter than a diaphragm pump. If you're still in the mood to look around for other solutions. You could try finding a peristaltic pump that fits your flow rate (this is also a positive displacement pump). Positive displacement pumps are not kinetic energy pumps like the centrifugal ones, they move water up by displacing volume. This is both good and bad. It is good because if you find one that will pump at your desired flowrate, you don't have to worry about it reaching the destination, it is moved along by the volume of water behind it, so as long as there is water, it will keep moving. This is dangerous, however, because if for some reason your pipes get clogged or a valve is closed, it will continue to pump and build pressure until the pipe bursts or pump ruptures, both very expensive problems. It's up to you if you'd like to search around for these, but I wouldn't recommend it.

5) Don't use a timer. It is a bad idea for a person with your water table. I don't even know if building codes allow it. The only way to increase the time between pump cycles without risking flooding is to increase the size of the sump, or increase the level at which the main sump turns on.

Yes, after all that Travis... I think my conclusion is to align my solution to yours.

1. Getting a quiet and long lasting sump pump
2. Getting a Campbell M quiet check valve - reading how people don't hear any slamming noises when sump stops and (water hammer effect0
3. Keeping the back up battery power sump pump
4. keeping the water pressure sump pump off unless I am going away on vacation
5. Look to install back up generator in the house that auto switches to nat gas for powering house. I don't think this is necessary since i have water pressured sump pump.

Travis, thank you for all the input and thought process.

Dave, same to you for all your consideration and time

G

 

[gloo]

One more question/ piece of advice from whoever can give it. My battery back up sump pump don't work well. The pump just doesn't pump much water and the charge seems to disappear and needs charging after a 30 second run. I just installled this marine battery in late 2011 and really only been used once or twice.

How long do these things last? The plumber said 5 to 7 years! It's been barely 3 years?? Is it for sure the battery?

g

 

[OmCheeto]

One more question/ piece of advice from whoever can give it. My battery back up sump pump don't work well. The pump just doesn't pump much water and the charge seems to disappear and needs charging after a 30 second run. I just installled this marine battery in late 2011 and really only been used once or twice.

How long do these things last? The plumber said 5 to 7 years! It's been barely 3 years?? Is it for sure the battery?

g

Can you show us the circuit diagram for the battery backup system? A well maintained deep cycle battery can last 20 years. Poorly maintained, they can last less than a year.

 

[Danger]

Can you show us the circuit diagram for the battery backup system?

Even if it's a good design, it might be worth doing a physical check for flaws that don't conform to the blueprints and cause parasitic loss. This happens sometimes in cars or whatnot due to little things like "leaky" headlight switches or power window circuits that let current pass through at a small enough magnitude that it doesn't actually do anything other than drain the battery over time.
It could be the specific battery model, though. The manual for my Jazzy Jet 3 power chair says that if it isn't in regular use the batteries should be charged at least once a week for 12—14 hours (but not more than 20). They are deep-cycle units that the manual also says can be replaced by marine or RV ones with no mention of altering the charging instructions in that case.

 

[gloo]

Can you show us the circuit diagram for the battery backup system? A well maintained deep cycle battery can last 20 years. Poorly maintained, they can last less than a year.

I took a video of the set up. I hope you can decipher or see what is going on with this. If you need more details I can go get it for you.

But it most likely is the battery correct?

 

[Danger]

But it most likely is the battery correct?

There really isn't enough information to determine that. Although a video might not provide anything useful, it certainly can't hurt to bring it out.

 

[DaveC426913]

Batteries and circuits tend not to play well with water.

If any of it is under water, of even on a wet surface, I'd look for crimped wires and poorly insulated joins where current can leak out of the system.

Let me tell you about the wiring in the bilge of my boat...

 

[OmCheeto]

I took a video of the set up. I hope you can decipher or see what is going on with this. If you need more details I can go get it for you.

But it most likely is the battery correct?

When you post the video, you should also provide us with the make and model of your battery. Otherwise, we will probably end up with another 7 pages of guessing what's wrong.

ps. Someone else had a leaky basement a while back. Though it wasn't as bad as yours. I told him to buy a mop.

 

[Danger]

Let me tell you about the wiring in the bilge of my boat...

oo)
Please... no! I've heard enough horror stories out of you. After that thing about the goat and the Cheez Whiz, I'm not listening to any more.

 

[gloo]

Sorry, I forgot the video link:



The battery is a Liberty (sump pump manufacturer) and is 12Volt model 441.

http://www.libertypumps.com/Products/Category/SubCategory/Product/?p=21&s=23&c=14

 

[OmCheeto]

Sorry, I forgot the video link:



The battery is a Liberty (sump pump manufacturer) and is 12Volt model 441.

http://www.libertypumps.com/Products/Category/SubCategory/Product/?p=21&s=23&c=14

It looks like a very sophisticated system. Unfortunately, you haven't told us what make and model battery you have. The literature says the system comes without a battery.

 

[Danger]

The literature says the system comes without a battery.

That could explain a lot, if he didn't "purpose-match" it to the pump. (In fact, I was just a bit puzzled about it being a deep-cycle unit in the first place, but I figured that the manufacturer had supplied it. Those are usually meant for sustained heavy medium to heavy output, not rare applications of power. I would expect a Lion pack such as from a cordless lawnmower would be more appropriate.)

 

[OmCheeto]

That could explain a lot, if he didn't "purpose-match" it to the pump. (In fact, I was just a bit puzzled about it being a deep-cycle unit in the first place, but I figured that the manufacturer had supplied it. Those are usually meant for sustained heavy medium to heavy output, not rare applications of power. I would expect a Lion pack such as from a cordless lawnmower would be more appropriate.)

The system is priced around $300. A 100 ah lead acid battery is about $90. An equivalent lithium ion battery is in the $600 - $900 range.
The charging system he has is very sophisticated, and is designed for a very specific type of battery.

It's actually the very first thing they list on page one:

http://www.libertypumps.com/Data/InstallationManual/4414000BforWeb.pdf

In an emergency (such as an extended power outage) which depletes the system deep cycle battery, your automobile battery may be temporarily substituted. Be sure to replace the system deep cycle battery as soon as possible. Use of an automobile battery instead of a deep cycle battery in this system will significantly reduce system total performance. Automobile batteries are not designed for this type of application and will be quickly ruined by the repeated charge/discharge cycling. Do not use GEL-type batteries or maintenance-free batteries with this charger. GEL-type batteries require a lower voltage than the charger is designed for; they may overcharge. Maintenance-free (sealed) batteries require a higher voltage and may never reach full charge.

 

[Danger]

Okay... thanks, Om. That clarifies things (but that price differential blows my mind). If the manual specifies deep-cycle, then that's obviously the proper way to go. I retract my speculations.

 

[RonL]

Okay... thanks, Om. That clarifies things (but that price differential blows my mind). If the manual specifies deep-cycle, then that's obviously the proper way to go. I retract my speculations.

IIRC the price to change out the battery pack in the Tesla car is around 50,000 US dollars

 

[gloo]

The system is priced around $300. A 100 ah lead acid battery is about $90. An equivalent lithium ion battery is in the $600 - $900 range.
The charging system he has is very sophisticated, and is designed for a very specific type of battery.

It's actually the very first thing they list on page one:

Oh wow! Thanks OmCheeto! So... questions:

1. What do you think it would cost to put the appropriate battery? I think that plumber put some kind of "marine" battery in.

2. Where would or should I buy this battery (I live in Toronto)

3. Is it hard to install?

4. If i put in the proper battery...how long should this thing last??

Thx

 

[OmCheeto]

Oh wow! Thanks OmCheeto! So... questions:

1. What do you think it would cost to put the appropriate battery?

$90 USD or $102.60 Canadian, at todays exchange rate.

I think that plumber put some kind of "marine" battery in.

Guessing won't solve the problem. There are at least 3 different types of "marine" batteries. You want a "deep cycle marine" battery.

2. Where would or should I buy this battery (I live in Toronto)

Ask DaveC426913. He lives in Toronto. I live about 3400 km to your west, and don't know where your nearest battery store is.

3. Is it hard to install?

No, but you can kill or injure yourself if you do it wrong. Have you never changed the battery in your car before? It's only a tad more complicated than changing the batteries in a flashlight.

4. If i put in the proper battery...how long should this thing last??

Thx

Between 3 and 20 years.
Batteries are like people. Some don't live long, while others live a very long time. Overworking a battery, especially lead acid, will shorten their lifespan. And so will not keeping them adequately charged.

 

[gloo]

$90 USD or $102.60 Canadian, at todays exchange rate.

Guessing won't solve the problem. There are at least 3 different types of "marine" batteries. You want a "deep cycle marine" battery.

Ask DaveC426913. He lives in Toronto. I live about 3400 km to your west, and don't know where your nearest battery store is.

No, but you can kill or injure yourself if you do it wrong. Have you never changed the battery in your car before? It's only a tad more complicated than changing the batteries in a flashlight.

Between 3 and 20 years.
Batteries are like people. Some don't live long, while others live a very long time. Overworking a battery, especially lead acid, will shorten their lifespan. And so will not keeping them adequately charged.

you certainly know your stuff OmCheeto.

I have not changed a battery but have unhooked the positive negative wires to clean some acid gunk on the connectors in my car.

3 and 20 years eh? So mine was the 3 year one then? It has only been used twice in three years. Once during the Toronto ice storm in which it drained after 6 or 7 hours (as per spec); and once for about 20 min. Other than that, i don't think it was used (battery or the back up battery pump). So how do i stop if from being over worked?? Should i not let it charge in summer for hot dry stretches?

 

[RonL]

you certainly know your stuff OmCheeto.

I have not changed a battery but have unhooked the positive negative wires to clean some acid gunk on the connectors in my car.

3 and 20 years eh? So mine was the 3 year one then? It has only been used twice in three years. Once during the Toronto ice storm in which it drained after 6 or 7 hours (as per spec); and once for about 20 min. Other than that, i don't think it was used (battery or the back up battery pump). So how do i stop if from being over worked?? Should i not let it charge in summer for hot dry stretches?

It would be good to use the battery system two or three times a year (just enough to drop charge to around 70 or 80 percent, or DOC, "depth of charge") this is the phrase "cycling a battery".
Exercising a battery is the same principal as exercising our physical bodies.;)

Edit...that should be DoD " Depth of Discharge"

 

[Danger]

I live about 3400 km to your west

So... what, somewhere between Brooks and Calgary? I didn't know that there were people there... :p

 

[RonL]

So... what, somewhere between Brooks and Calgary? I didn't know that there were people there... :p

They are all dressed like boats:D

 

[Danger]

They are all dressed like boats:D

Prairie schooners...?

 

[OmCheeto]

It would be good to use the battery system two or three times a year (just enough to drop charge to around 70 or 80 percent, or DOC, "depth of charge") this is the phrase "cycling a battery".
Exercising a battery is the same principal as exercising our physical bodies.;)

Edit...that should be DoD " Depth of Discharge"

Agreed.

One peculiar thing about the charging system, is that it claims to take 100 hours to charge a 100 ah battery. And I don't see anything in the literature about an equalizing charge. To my knowledge, batteries don't "gas" at below 14.4 vdc. If the system never forces the battery to gas, then stratification is going to occur. This will also degrade the life of a battery.

I would recommend rocking the battery back and forth for a couple of minutes, about every 6 months. This might solve the problem. Just make sure the caps are on tight. Battery acid will eat your eyeballs.

ps. I wonder if Wagon Master killed himself with his battery project. He hasn't been back since. DIY science projects can be deadly.

 

[Danger]

I wonder if Wagon Master killed himself with his battery project. He hasn't been back since. DIY science projects can be deadly.

Hmmm... possibly.
Re-reading that thread, I just can't believe that I didn't make a smart-ass response to his statement that "My father has a solar system..." I assume that Jupiter is the guest house...?

 

[RonL]

Agreed.

One peculiar thing about the charging system, is that it claims to take 100 hours to charge a 100 ah battery. And I don't see anything in the literature about an equalizing charge. To my knowledge, batteries don't "gas" at below 14.4 vdc. If the system never forces the battery to gas, then stratification is going to occur. This will also degrade the life of a battery.

I would recommend rocking the battery back and forth for a couple of minutes, about every 6 months. This might solve the problem. Just make sure the caps are on tight. Battery acid will eat your eyeballs.

ps. I wonder if Wagon Master killed himself with his battery project. He hasn't been back since. DIY science projects can be deadly.

I'm glad you linked to the battery project thread (your first post...WOW I like)
Batteries and compressed air...two things I'm passionate about and now have to really really hold my thoughts,...lest I be banned:)

 

[Danger]

Batteries and compressed air...two things I'm passionate about and now have to really really hold my thoughts,...lest I be banned:)

Oh, go ahead. A little flatulence never hurt anyone... :D

 

[RonL]

Oh, go ahead. A little flatulence never hurt anyone... :D

Your my red flag indicator, don't do what Danger does, try to stay at least 1" shy of the line:)

 

[Danger]

Your my red flag indicator, don't do what Danger does, try to stay at least 1" shy of the line:)

Wise words, my son.

 

[OmCheeto]

Oh, go ahead. A little flatulence never hurt anyone... :D

That was very much what I said in my very first thread!

I suppose, it was all Woolies fault, that I've stuck around this long.