Relativistic mass,momentum and energy.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of relativistic mass, momentum, and energy, particularly focusing on the derivation and implications of the relativistic momentum formula. Participants explore the differences in measurements from various reference frames and the nature of momentum in the context of relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a derivation of the relativistic momentum formula, questioning why time and space coordinates are taken with respect to different observers.
  • Another participant suggests that proper velocity, derived from measurements by a stationary observer, leads to proper momentum, which is a conserved four-vector.
  • Some participants advocate for viewing momentum in terms of four-vectors, emphasizing the need for definitions that are covariant under Lorentz transformations.
  • There is a discussion about the discrepancy between observed momentum in different frames and the relativistic momentum formula, with one participant expressing confusion over how to reconcile these views.
  • Another participant asserts that the relativistic momentum formula yields a value that is not common across all reference frames, as the body's velocity varies in each frame.
  • Concerns are raised about the initial understanding of momentum being defined as mv, and how this conflicts with the relativistic perspective.
  • One participant mentions that to measure momentum directly, one would need to measure the total impulse required to bring an object to rest, which relates to the relativistic momentum formula.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of momentum in relativity, with some advocating for the use of four-vectors and others focusing on classical definitions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of measuring momentum from different reference frames and the relationship between observed and calculated values.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the understanding of relativistic concepts among some participants, particularly regarding the transition from classical to relativistic momentum. The discussion highlights the dependence on definitions and the unresolved nature of certain mathematical steps in the derivation of relativistic momentum.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and enthusiasts of physics who are grappling with the concepts of relativistic momentum and the implications of different reference frames in the context of relativity.

  • #31
I didn't imply pot.en. is not a scalar.
To make it simple, if you have a mass in a gravitational field, you cannot have a mass more than you actually have.If it's otherwise, there's a limit after which the mass won't stay in the field(and it's too small to cause a considerable change of mass), like when a satellite revolving the Earth gains a velocity more than than the critical valocity and actually has more mass, it gets out of the field. So now you know how things go.
It is definitely not the other way, for that would mean that where there's more potential energy(and hence more mass and more energy as you said), it needs even more energy to exit.What you should note is that in Newtonian physics the potential energy is negative and you made it positive.
 
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  • #32
vin300 said:
if you have a mass in a gravitational field, you cannot have a mass more than you actually have.If it's otherwise, there's a limit after which the mass won't stay in the field(and it's too small to cause a considerable change of mass), like when a satellite revolving the Earth gains a velocity more than than the critical valocity and actually has more mass, it gets out of the field. So now you know how things go.
It is definitely not the other way, for that would mean that where there's more potential energy(and hence more mass and more energy as you said), it needs even more energy to exit.What you should note is that in Newtonian physics the potential energy is negative and you made it positive.
I don't really follow this. Since gravity is always attractive the binding energy is always negative resulting in a mass deficit, not "a mass more than you actually have". bcrowell is correct, all forms of energy contribute to the invariant mass of a system. The wikipedia article on binding energy and mass deficit is pretty decent. It particular, the 3rd paragraph of the mass deficit section here specifically talks about the case under discussion of two gravitationally bound objects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_energy#Mass_deficit
 
  • #33
It's a language problem.Thought contribution to mass can only mean more mass.
As a correction to post #29,if in an experimental setup a mass could move to higher up in potential, it gains more mass and slows down due to inertia.
 
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