Remaining Fraction of Particle Beam After CERN Use

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the fraction of a particle beam that remains after being used in CERN's accelerators, particularly focusing on the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). Participants explore estimates of this remaining fraction, the implications for collision probabilities, and the operational characteristics of different accelerators.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the remaining fraction of a particle beam after use, suggesting a rough estimate of around 1/2.
  • Another participant clarifies that for LHC beams, typically 1/2 to 1/3 of the initial protons remain when the beam is dumped, which can occur for safety reasons or due to operational needs.
  • There is a question about estimating the probability of a proton scattering from its bunch during interactions with a counter-rotating anti-proton bunch, based on the remaining fraction of the beam.
  • One participant notes that the LHC collides protons with protons, not anti-protons, and provides information about the collision rates, indicating that the initial collision rate is close to 2 billion collisions per second, which decreases over time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the specifics of the remaining fraction and the nature of the collisions, indicating that there is no consensus on the exact figures or the implications for scattering probabilities.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference different operational aspects of the LHC and other CERN accelerators, highlighting that the remaining fraction and collision dynamics may vary significantly depending on the specific accelerator and its operational context.

Spinnor
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When Cern is done with a particle beam, what fraction of a typical beam bunch is left having not scattered out of the bunch? Is it of order 1/2? A very rough estimate would do.

Edit, I should add that I read an accelerated beam might be used for a day and at the end of the day they dispose of the old beam. What is left of a typical beam bunch at the end of the day.

Thanks!
 
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Which CERN accelerator do you mean?

LHC beams typically get dumped when ~1/2 to 1/3 of the initial protons are left. This is not bound to days, the accelerator operates 24/7. The beam is dumped when refilling (0 collisions for a while but then higher collision rates again) leads to a higher average collision rate than keeping the old beam.

You can watch it live here and here, "intensity" refers to the number of protons in the beams. Often the beams get dumped for safety reasons, that can happen much earlier (as it did yesterday afternoon for example).
 
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mfb said:
Which CERN accelerator do you mean?

I was thinking of our biggest and best, the LHC, right?

With that remaining fraction, call it one half for estimating purposes, should I be able to roughly estimate than the probability that a proton gets scattered from its bunch per interaction with a counter-rotating anti-proton bunch by estimating the total number of collision interactions in say a 24 hour run (about 4X10^9?)?

How many times per orbit around the ring does a bunch interact?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4nuAE_IMMYz9VDcddFj3KqwQQVwb9jt4Amr_RKfm7HzzrTBU2.png


From this image can I infer that number is 4 interactions per orbit?

Thanks!
 

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The LHC is the largest. The different accelerators all have different purposes, they are all best for their applications.
Spinnor said:
With that remaining fraction, call it one half for estimating purposes, should I be able to roughly estimate than the probability that a proton gets scattered from its bunch per interaction with a counter-rotating anti-proton bunch by estimating the total number of collision interactions in say a 24 hour run (about 4X10^9?)?
The LHC collides protons with protons. No antiprotons involved.

The LHC starts with close to 2 billion collisions per second in both ATLAS and CMS each, over time that rate goes down. The collision rate in LHCb and ALICE is much smaller. Some of the protons are lost due to other processes.
 
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