News Remembering & Honoring Spain: A Tribute

[Integral0]

My regards to those individuals and the people of spain who have been deeply affected my this heinous attack.

 

[Tsu]

Same here. I hope Meteor is doing OK...

 

[member 5645]

This tragedy is so sad :( I'm still waiting to hear from my friends over there

 

[meteor]

Tsunami, i'ts really a tragedy what happened here. 198 people were killed in consecutive explossions in 4 trains. It was thought that was ETA who put the bombs, but it seems, amazingly, that is AL-QAEDA!
who has put the bombs. Is this a retaliation for the fact that Bin-Laden is surrounded there in Pakistan? Well, it only shows that these islamic fundamentalist are all crazy, don't have any respect for the life of others. A lot of shops and balconys in my city have hanged black strips in the windows, like a signal of pain for the murder
I also have hanged one in my balcony
The newspapers have sold three more times that in habitual days.
Even the habitual rivality between my city, (Barcelona) and Madrid has been forgotten, and the people of Barcelona seems affected by what happened.
Look, the page of Google Spain. it has also put a black string in signal of pain

http://www.google.es/
5000 people have demonstrated in St. Jaume place, in my city Here are some politicians in St. Jaume place

http://www.bcn.es/bnoticies_data/in/premsa/public_html/foto/mani-abierta.jpg

What happened is really sad

 

[russ_watters]

So apparently, they aren't really sure who did it? That's a little strange: generally, terrorists advertise.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by russ_watters
So apparently, they aren't really sure who did it? That's a little strange: generally, terrorists advertise.

Well, I think the problem is that several groups have taken credit.

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by meteor
Tsunami, i'ts really a tragedy what happened here. 198 people were killed in consecutive explossions in 4 trains. It was thought that was ETA who put the bombs, but it seems, amazingly, that is AL-QAEDA!
who has put the bombs. Is this a retaliation for the fact that Bin-Laden is surrounded there in Pakistan? Well, it only shows that these islamic fundamentalist are all crazy, don't have any respect for the life of others. A lot of shops and balconys in my city have hanged black strips in the windows, like a signal of pain for the murder
I also have hanged one in my balcony
The newspapers have sold three more times that in habitual days.
Even the habitual rivality between my city, (Barcelona) and Madrid has been forgotten, and the people of Barcelona seems affected by what happened.
Look, the page of Google Spain. it has also put a black string in signal of pain

http://www.google.es/
5000 people have demonstrated in St. Jaume place, in my city Here are some politicians in St. Jaume place

http://www.bcn.es/bnoticies_data/in/premsa/public_html/foto/mani-abierta.jpg

What happened is really sad

I'm so very sad for the people of your country. But I am also glad that you are OK. I know many travel back and forth from your cities by train. I was truly hoping you were not one of them.

 

[Loren Booda]

Spain is the where one of the world's greatest Islamic treasures resides - the Alhambra, a Moorish outpost that thrived during Europe's Dark Ages. It may well have the most beautiful architecture I have ever seen. Someone wishes to plunge civilization back into a comparative Dark Ages, quite probably a sadist wrapped in cleric's robes.

 

[Njorl]

Just last week there was a story in France about an extortion plot against the national train system. There were threats to blow up trains, and one bomb was found. It was concluded that it was purely economic criminality, and not politically motivated terrorsm. I wonder if there is a connection.

Criminals could have arranged the attack in Spain. They blame terrorists to keep the heat off, but send a message to the French government that they are serious. They also don't force the hand of the French government to hunt them down, because they attacked Spain.

Terrorists could have arranged the threats in France to cause doubt about the nature of the atack in Spain. Contrary to what has been posted, Al Qaeda generally doesn't take credit for attacks. They praise the attackers and condemn the victims, but they don't take credit for the attack.

Njorl

 

[meteor]

How sad, a baby of 9 months is the 199 victim
Just have heard in TV that ETA has stated that they have not commited the massacre. Anyway, this is not the kind of terrorist attack that ETA uses to do. To date the bloodiest attack of ETA was in 1987, in the Hipercor stores of Barcelona, where were killed 21 persons
Here's a list with the major attacks of ETA
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/1995/2246_eta.html
A van with detonator caps and arabic recordings in a cassette was found 300 mt. from one of the train stations. This raises suspicious against AL-Qaeda
My personal hunch is that ETA is not the author of the attacks

 

[Monique]

Politically I wouldn't think it to be the ETA either. Such actions against civilians is really dispicable. If they have to make a statement, why don't they blow up a number of unoccupied trains with the message: we are serious, listen to us?

These actions are creating a scare now, people are extra conscious about taking public transportation. Wasn't the aim of terrorists like Bin Laden to create scare and the feeling of terror? I think it again should be sought in that corner.

 

[pocebokli]

well if Al Quaedae is capable of such an attack then osama bin bang boom is certainly not cornered anywhere, least in pakistan.

"isolated cells" are not capable of so well organized attack

i have another theory about criminals, tho...the government of spain wants to get rid of eta (they claim ETA did it as i understand it), so they blow up their own trains or something.

now there's going to be a major response ("justified" and with non-conventional methods) from the spanish govnmnt, and even if everyone will know tomorrow that ETA is not behind these attacks, it will be wiped out too. one big domestic problem less.

it is, after all, war on terror.

well everyone capable of such a thing is a criminal in any case. so yeah, criminals probably did it.

he who fights the beast should beware that himself doesn't become a beast or something similar said nietzche

certainly something i wouldn't like to happen to me or to anyone i know or perhaps don't know.

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by pocebokli
well if Al Quaedae is capable of such an attack then osama bin bang boom is certainly not cornered anywhere, least in pakistan.

"isolated cells" are not capable of so well organized attack

Isolated cells certainly are capable of such an attack. An isolated cell was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Bin Laden never knew anything about any planning. He handled fund-raising and recruitment. Even the high ranking assistants to Bin Laden didn't know details. They arranged travel and laundering of funds.

Njorl

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by Njorl
Bin Laden never knew anything about any planning.

How can you know? Just to be clear: I never implied that Bin Laden is behind this, but that someone with the object to install fear and terror is. Not a subpopulation that want to distinguish themselves from the ruling government.. my reasoning..

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by Monique
How can you know? Just to be clear: I never implied that Bin Laden is behind this, but that someone with the object to install fear and terror is. Not a subpopulation that want to distinguish themselves from the ruling government.. my reasoning..

There were decoded messages from chat room logs. It was deduced from these that Atta informed Bin Laden that something was going to happen September 11th, but that he was unwilling to give details.


Njorl

 

[LURCH]

I know there's not supposed to be any connection between Al-Qaida and Iraq, but these attacks are certainly Al-Qaida's style. Other than Great Britain, Spain supported the war on Iraq or enthusiastically than any other European power. I wonder if there is a connection?

 

[Nereid]

So, the UK, Australia or Poland next? It wasn't only the UK and Spain which supported the US re Iraq (in the early days).

But why Iraq? I thought the evidence was pretty clear ... Saddam and UBL were far from bosom buddies. In fact, didn't UBL regard M Hussein as a real baddie? You know, not at all in favour of a theocracy.

 

[dr_syed_ameen2000]

march,12.2004
On International Terrorism and its remedies to stop it.
The creators of Al Quada and Laden were U.S.Intelligence agencies(and surrogates form Mossaad),which were heavily engrossed in fighting the USSR during the Cold War era.They trained,finance and used them.In Afghanistan they deployed these by psyching them out in Fanatic games as the covert exercises.Then abondoned them without any means for them to make a living after spending their whole youth years fighting the soviets or Russians.The case of Sadam Hussein also is the identical one.The U.S.Intelligence agents and Mossaad,covertly employed this Iraqi Sadam for pulling down the Iranian Revolution,and Ayatollaha Khomeini when Shah od Iran was removed.Even Carter and U.S. were covertly inspired the removal of Shah because he was the first to increase the price of OIL,and disliked for his act.So Sadam was used to wage a war against the Iranian revolution and Khomeini from 1980's onwards.Then Sadam was abondoned after been used.Thus there are always some "Useful Idiots" are available for intelligence agencies' covert operation around the globe and many ignore their plays!
This means the International terrorism is not a new thing in our times.Only way to stop it is to design "respectable policies" which do not degrade,insult or condemn any specific human groups in any paretm of the world.
"since I believe FORCE IS THE BANKRUPTCY OF IDEAS",no Militaristic approach would ever solve this problem,and history shows that.We must respect all kinds of cultures and Human beings,however our approach must be spreading education and standardized foreign policies which might introduce the technologies responsible for INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTIONS".when the populations encounter this they naturally yield to forces of Nature and due to respect of TIME,become civilized ion standardized fashion,producing similarities of Cultures, ethnicities,religious orientations,which are devoid of conflicts.One must also try to "DEMOLISH THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES",which consume so much of the wealth of nations which their citizens produce by hard labor and consumption of Time and sacrifices.The militaries burn this wealth of Nations due to thoutless nonsense of waging wars due to Egos and EMMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL of their populations.
Dr.Syed Ameen(Ph.D.)

 

[Loren Booda]

Even a thousand half-truths would not testify the whole truth.

 

[himanshu121]

INDIA condemns terrorists attacks in Spain. I am sorry for the families/country which has suffered from it.

 

[Monique]

Apparently they now have found a tape which claims the train bombings, someone claiming to be a spokesman for al-Qaida reasoning that the attacks were for Spain's support of the US. Ofcourse the question is whether the tape is authentic (would would even risk counterfeighting such a tape?)

At a news conference in the first hours of Spain's national election day, Interior Minister Angel Acebes said a man identifying himself as Abu Dujan al-Afghani and claiming to be the military spokesman of al-Qaida in Europe, said on the tape that the group was responsible for the attacks that killed 200 people and wounded 1,500 in Madrid

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03142004/nation_w/nation_w.asp

 

[pocebokli]

a thousant half thruths would certainly not do any good.

especially if they all come from one side of the conflict.

if you wanted truth you would have to get another thousant half truths from the other side.

then you'd get the whole truth.

but the western faith in capital is as strong as al quaeda's in god

 

[Shahil]

First off - my regards to all those affected by the incident. It's really not at all fair when innocent people's lives are lost so tragically.

ANyway, to the debate. I'm really finding it hard to believe that its Al-Qaeda. It's just, impossible! I mean, we're hearing stories of taped confessions and nonsense like that - tell me which bomber in their right mind would leave such damning evidence of their involvement. Something just doesn't gel here. I know I may sound like a lame conspiracy theorist but there IS somethinbg unsavoury to all these apparent "Al-Qaeda" attacks especially since most of there lead men are in solitary on the edge of Cuba.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Shahil
First off - my regards to all those affected by the incident. It's really not at all fair when innocent people's lives are lost so tragically.

ANyway, to the debate. I'm really finding it hard to believe that its Al-Qaeda. It's just, impossible! I mean, we're hearing stories of taped confessions and nonsense like that - tell me which bomber in their right mind would leave such damning evidence of their involvement. Something just doesn't gel here. I know I may sound like a lame conspiracy theorist but there IS somethinbg unsavoury to all these apparent "Al-Qaeda" attacks especially since most of there lead men are in solitary on the edge of Cuba.

Well, the van found near by, the confession, the type of blast. Sure would be a shame if you are right, and it was ETA and spain voted out their government over the wrong reason

 

[Monique]

There is the unexploded bomb in a backpack with the phone that was recovered too.. and why would you think Spain would all of a sudden blame Al-Qaeda, when they were so eager to jump on the ETA in the first place?

And Spain didn't vote out their government for no reason, at least they are getting back their troops now (although one could argue whether that would be the right thing to do at the moment, the prime minister did plan it many months in advance).

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Monique

And Spain didn't vote out their government for no reason, at least they are getting back their troops now (although one could argue whether that would be the right thing to do at the moment, the prime minister did plan it many months in advance).

They weren't concerned enough to vote them out over it before the bombings.

 

[Monique]

Well, I agree, but there have been critics who say you should stand as a government against terrorism and not budge. I just wanted to point out that the freshly voted prime minister already had expressed a very firm opinion against the Iraq war months before and made his primary promise when he'd win the election, to return the troops. So I guess it is ironic how this is playing into the hands of the terrorists, but it should not be viewed as their victory.

And I still don't think ETA possible would have anything to do with this.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Monique
Well, I agree, but there have been critics who say you should stand as a government against terrorism and not budge. I just wanted to point out that the freshly voted prime minister already had expressed a very firm opinion against the Iraq war months before and made his primary promise when he'd win the election, to return the troops. So I guess it is ironic how this is playing into the hands of the terrorists, but it should not be viewed as their victory.

And I still don't think ETA possible would have anything to do with this.

I'm in no way faulting the new PM or socialist party. They are simply following through with their stated platform. My beef is with the electing populous that reacted short sighted to these horrendous attacks.
I don't see how it can be seen as anything but a victory for the terrorists. Do you not believe that they attained their goal?

I believe it was al quaeda. All signs point to them, thus far.

 

[dr_syed_ameen2000]

march.15.2004

INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM IS NOT A NEW THING IN HISTORY OF CIVILIZATIONS:
As I have read the "world Histories" I came to realize that Terrorism is a natural reaction sets by the human Instinct of FEAR.The victims as well as the claimed vectors ,both are fear inflicted in reality.As I see and analyse the present global situation and its connections to the Foreign policies,I see that some thing is missing.That something is the the basic concept of "What Civilization means".From tribes in African Jungles like Sarangathi people to a moderner living in the White house,in washington,D.C.(USA)the meaning of civilizations are miscontrued by opportunistic variables inflicting the wisdoms of mankind.There is an accute need of a systematic process of "STANDARDIZATION".One can not apply one set of rules or values to one group of human species and other to other group ,if we want to develop a CIVILIZATION on PLANET EARTH.Otherwise what is the justification of nations wanting to send space ships to space in search of LIFE at the expense of Tax payers hard earned money?
In this respect I had developed a new Scientific approach which if applied would get rid off the Evil spectre of all kinds of violences,WARS,and Conflicts as well as the Military Industrial Complexes.This could be a Rationalizing force for all human species inhabiting this planet earth.Remember we are born to this Planet Earth,regardless of our geographical location,and so called Geopolitical or geoeconomical existence.
We all humans as well as all kinds of LIFE-FORMS are in reality "SOCIOBIOLOGICAL ANIMALS".And the driving forces of these life forms as well as human species are TWO FOUNDAMENTAL INSTINCTS,(1)FEAR,(2)PROCREATION.Whatever any lifeform or humans do is governed by these two instincts.The survival struggle emmanates from these instincts too.These two instincts lead to formation of herds,tribes,human groups,myths,dogmas,idealogies,and philosophies to errect artificially inculcated groupisms.All religions,armies,militaries,nations,countries,etc. are Artificial groups.
The 'SCIENTIFICATION THEORY" I DEVELOPED IS BASED ON ONE FOUNDAMENTAL REALITY,AND THAT IS: ANYTHING WHICH EXISTS OR MOVES ,LIVES,OR HAPPENS IN ANY FORM,STRUCTURE OR CONFIGURATION,FOLLOWS SOME LAW OF NATURE,CONCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY"of mankinds awareness.This makes one realize that ,"SCIENCE IS THE STUDY OF LAWS OF NATURE".So all life forms subjugate to laws of Nature,which are "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" and nothing can change that.So Scientification helps adding understandings.
Now the two basic Instincts make one response to impulses or actions in any form,arising from any cause.The basic concept of CAUSALITY is directly involved can originate from any faculty,social,economical,political,or biological.This means all ARTIFIOCIAL GROUPISMS are created around these faculties,religion,nationalities,countries,isms,ethnicities,racisms,etc.you name it,they are all results of this so called Artificial Groupisms,since they are not designed by NATURE but invented by human Opportunism in different eras and times.Thus we come to greet the glory of the impacts of "STANDARDIZATION" processes in building the Civilizations.If we failed,the civilizations go astray,and Individuals and societies fall victim to 'ALIENATION PROCESSESES".First onslaught of the Alienation affects the Societies,and if it is prolonged then it start producing the ALIENATED INDIVIDUALS tonce a human being or life form becomes alienated from self,this SELF ALIENATION transforms the individual into a dangerous wild life form.This is what we see in our prisent societies,the self-alienations processes due to decaying VALUES of CIVILIZATIONS are setting in.We are hearing cases of Cannibalisms in modern cities living in democratic societies,we see cases of Mass Murdereres living among us,we see Homosexulaity mobilizing,we see Cults shaping up,we see on a different level the Guerrila warfares,Terrorisms,transformation of Churches into Commercial enterprises rather than spritual groups.The failure of Standardisation of human values create these deviations leading to Alienations of self as well as societies.
So can we evolve a GLOBAL STANDARDIZATION process ,which transforms the humans in societies to be subjected to standardization of Values which could be SCIENTIFICALLY RATIONALIZE and devoid of sociopolitics,socioeconomics and sociobiological manipulations.The answer is that ,only thru "SCIENTIFICATION OF VALUES" which are based of respect for the absolute truth ,the LAWS OF NATURE,not made by Man.This Scientification Theory could solve all the conflicts to show the ways where the
Nature could be embraced on equal grounds respectable to all.This ground could be created by the processes of "INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTIONS" which at the same time do not become virolous to environmental variables threatening the planet Earth to Inhabit,like modern destructive weapons,pollutions of air and waters,etc.Humans are rational when they see the mutability and resilience of Nature to cultivate EASE in living processes.That is where the inventions,discoveries and art of innovations prevail.That changes the human minds not by any coercive force but by acceptance of reality from whithin.Wild tribes wandering in the forrest,or jungles could wear clothes,adopt the way of new eating habits,and ways to live not by force but seeing the reality of advantages in these things.The introductions of Industrial Revolutions do that but there handdicaps emerge due to socioeconomic,sociopolitics and some times sociobiological expl;oitations by opportunists.
So we end up with isolated pockets of rebellions by individuals who find themselves left behind and unattained,uncared for or ignored.
The Modern International Terrorism, we are confronting is the result of unnatural unscrupolous leaderships,ineptnesses, incompetents who are emerging as leaders or heads of their governments creeping out of chaos and confusion, of so called DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES, apathy of tired populations and masses who are withdrawn, Unnatural democratic elections which abuse the effectiveness of the democratic election processes and emerge as power brokers or powers,elected by UNNATURAL sets of rules as a result of champaign finances and Money spent by vested Interests who twist the directions and paths of civilizations away from their natural flow.As we see presently one such power rested in the hand of a U.S. president who was not elected by Naturally designed democratic process but emerge as a product of vested interest.So he successfully diverted the growth of Human civilization from its Natural path to an artificially carved path of waging unneccesary,unwaranted war to erect opportunistic interests.In the policies erected he could not respect the UNO,Global treaties,Environmental safeguards and even the wastes of lives of his own countrymen and women for the sake of arrogance and ego.Money should never play the role in electing their leaders to head their governments at any time,in any place.
This kind of attitude which is unnatural creates the chaos and anarchy and out of which emerges the neocolonialism and Fascism.
So the interests,safety and peace and tranquality of entire human popuilations regardless of their geographical existence gets wrapped up in the mess of conflicts,wars,and fighting actions and reaction.The support of a bad middle east policy which was biased and prejudiced in favor of only one small population of human artificially groupded as JEWS or Arabs or Palestinians should not have wrapped the civility of human race on this planet.But unfortunately this erroneous policy of favoring one small country over the other group of people disbalaced the peace,tranquility and happiness of entire human society in global perspectives.We rest of the people can not travel freely,our own countries are adopting 'POLICE STATE TYPE OF RESTRICTIONS ON OUR OWN CITIZENS and these trends are almost become permanet,lasting for ever.It was coldwar and fear communism then ,but itis now the international terrorism!Out of this our societies are becoming ALIENATED and starting to accept the CULTS OF INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES AND SECRECIES as our ways of lives,which are not really natural in any sense.
We have never found a lasting peace on Earth where disrespect of any group of humans was left unattended and sacrificed.Militaristic approaches only bring phyrric victories but no solution.
This would make one feel the only way is the Scientification processes and adoption of Standardization of Human Values for all at all levels,socieconomis,sociobiological and sociopolitical.This would brings us to a stage where all sociopolitical manipulations and opportunisms must be abondoned and alienations of societies and selves would be eliminated for ever.
Dr.Syed Ameen(Ph.D.)

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Monique
Well, I agree, but there have been critics who say you should stand as a government against terrorism and not budge. I just wanted to point out that the freshly voted prime minister already had expressed a very firm opinion against the Iraq war months before and made his primary promise when he'd win the election, to return the troops. So I guess it is ironic how this is playing into the hands of the terrorists, but it should not be viewed as their victory.

And I still don't think ETA possible would have anything to do with this.

I wouldn't write off ETA. Some ETA terrorists were recently intercepted trying to plant a large bomb on a train.

 

[member 5645]

Dr Syed. What a wonderfully utopian thought you have set forth. You even managed to throw in your opinion on Bush's election.