Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[mugaliens]

Hillary Clinton has just equated the Giffords shooting with the 9/11 act.

Ms. Clinton has just shoved her size 32 shoe into a place where it doesn't belong (or fits).

I sincerely doubt she will ever learn.

 

[AlephZero]

Is there a detailed rulebook which Scotsmen need to follow in order to be considered Scotsman?

Well, there is the rule that says "A true Scots gentleman is somebody who knows how to play the bagpipes, but doesn't"...

When the first commandment of your religion is to not murder, and they're praying EXPLICITLY for murder, I'd say this is like me claiming to be the only true Scotsman... and I'm so far from Scotch that if I were alcoholic I'd have DTs.

No, you haven't understood the basic principle of all religions, which is: it's OK for a group of religious people to do anything they like, provided they all think their god told them to do it. Read any Holy Book for evidence to support that statement. It's unnecessary to give a page reference, just start reading from anywhere you like.

Seriously though, all this hand-wringing about the physical and mental health of those in front of and behind the trigger is beside the point. This story is already as much part of the Great American Historical Myth as George Washington and 9/11. The facts of the matter are pretty much irrelevant, compared with what author Terry Pratchett calls "the element Narrativium".

 

[WhoWee]

While we can all agree that Loughner's acts were reprehensible (although I will hesitate to call this mental disaster area himself as reprehensible), and that Westboro Church is just sickening, the following is truly ghastly:

Hillary Clinton has just equated the Giffords shooting with the 9/11 act.

Besides being totally wrong on the underlying sociology/psychology of these acts (and hence, worse than useless as basis for political analysis), it is a truly vile politicizing of a tragedy cause by a lone nutcase:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8250809/Hillary-Clinton-compares-Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-to-911-attacks.html

Shame on Mrs. Clinton, this is too low.

Anyone know how this was translated into Arabic?

 

[mugaliens]

The hospital [CNN] is reporting that Giffords is still alive and in surgery. People on the scene report that she was shot in the head at point blank.

Ivan, I want to thank you for setting the record straight on such a critical point and in such a timely manner.

Thanks.

 

[NeoDevin]

Is there a detailed rulebook which Scotsmen need to follow in order to be considered Scotsman?

When the first commandment of your religion is to not murder, and they're praying EXPLICITLY for murder, I'd say this is like me claiming to be the only true Scotsman... and I'm so far from Scotch that if I were alcoholic I'd have DTs.

Rule number one is "Thou shall not kill" - any philosophical deviation from that one is a problem.

You are both, of course, correct about "Rule number one". Unfortunately, after that point, you both leave logic behind:

First: "Rule number one" only speaks about killing, not about praying for others to kill.

Second: Given the history of some of the mainstream Christian churches (mentioning specific denominations would be in violation of the rules, but I'm sure you can come up with one or two that have killed a lot of people), not to mention any individual Christians, it's clear (to me) that killing people does not preclude one from being a Christian.

 

[WhoWee]

You are both, of course, correct about "Rule number one". Unfortunately, after that point, you both leave logic behind:

First: "Rule number one" only speaks about killing, not about praying for others to kill.

Second: Given the history of some of the mainstream Christian churches (mentioning specific denominations would be in violation of the rules, but I'm sure you can come up with one or two that have killed a lot of people), not to mention any individual Christians, it's clear (to me) that killing people does not preclude one from being a Christian.

As I said, "your fun aside", praying or wishing that more people be killed by an insane gunman - is not mainstream thinking whatsoever - religious or otherwise.

 

[nismaratwork]

While we can all agree that Loughner's acts were reprehensible (although I will hesitate to call this mental disaster area himself as reprehensible), and that Westboro Church is just sickening, the following is truly ghastly:

Hillary Clinton has just equated the Giffords shooting with the 9/11 act.

Besides being totally wrong on the underlying sociology/psychology of these acts (and hence, worse than useless as basis for political analysis), it is a truly vile politicizing of a tragedy cause by a lone nutcase:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8250809/Hillary-Clinton-compares-Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-to-911-attacks.html

Shame on Mrs. Clinton, this is too low.

Yeah, suddenly we're comparing this to the assassination in Pakistan (her reference), and the psychology of a complete basket case with organized and ideologically driven mass-murderers. It's grotesque, but it's her job, and what should anyone expect from politicians?... What's the excuse of the picketers... they don't have a job and claim to have souls...

By the way, I really respect that you point out that if this man is as mentally ill as he appears, there should be a balance between recognizing that he's dangerous, and making him a villain. If he's not that ill, or it's drugs... ***k him.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, there is the rule that says "A true Scots gentleman is somebody who knows how to play the bagpipes, but doesn't"...

It's very compelling, I know, but it still doesn't apply.

No, you haven't understood the basic principle of all religions, which is: it's OK for a group of religious people to do anything they like, provided they all think their god told them to do it. Read any Holy Book for evidence to support that statement. It's unnecessary to give a page reference, just start reading from anywhere you like.

You're preaching to the choir... get it? Preaching? CHOIR?! HA... but seriously folks, that's the practice of religion, the principle of politics, and the reality of life. By the same token, it doesn't really change anything I've said, or asked. I enjoyed what you said however, and have often felt similarly annoyed by the whole matter.

Seriously though, all this hand-wringing about the physical and mental health of those in front of and behind the trigger is beside the point. This story is already as much part of the Great American Historical Myth as George Washington and 9/11. The facts of the matter are pretty much irrelevant, compared with what author Terry Pratchett calls "the element Narrativium".

Yes, but that's not an excuse for us to feed that narrative, believe the story, or teach it. If you believe in submission to the inevitable, why advice us in science?... we're all going to be dust, and that dust will decay. I want to understand the mental and physical states because... that's what I try to do... understand physical and mental states. The fact that an event becomes forced into the narrative, doesn't mean that everyone has to buy it. For instance, I read L. Ron Hubbard's books, and immediately concluded that he was a crook and a ****wit! Lo, the narrative existeth, but with no lord to guide me I just bloody ignore it... that's why I'm having this discussion on PF, and nowhere else on or offline.

 

[nismaratwork]

You are both, of course, correct about "Rule number one". Unfortunately, after that point, you both leave logic behind:

First: "Rule number one" only speaks about killing, not about praying for others to kill.

Second: Given the history of some of the mainstream Christian churches (mentioning specific denominations would be in violation of the rules, but I'm sure you can come up with one or two that have killed a lot of people), not to mention any individual Christians, it's clear (to me) that killing people does not preclude one from being a Christian.

Christians who killed a bunch of people... hmmm... OH OH! "What is, The Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic church?!" Well Alec?

Anyway... if you believe that your prayers have the power to change the world, then their mindset is that of a killer. They rejoiced in the death of what they perceived as an enemy... wait... this skeptical atheist has: something relevant... religiously. Specifically a Rabbinic Midrash regarding celebrating the death, even of a hated enemy, never mind praying for murder.

...in Exodus 14:20 to teach that when the Egyptians were drowning in the sea, the ministering angels wanted to sing a song of rejoicing, as Isaiah 6:3 associates the words zeh el zeh with angelic singing. But God rebuked them: “The work of my hands is being drowned in the sea, and you want to sing songs?”

Just a thought from the religion that forms the basis of Christianity. Essential to the understanding of other people is an understanding of their beliefs, however they may be perverted to ill ends. If you choose to call them all loons or asses, you don't hurt them, just yourself.

 

[WhoWee]

It seems this thread is easily de-railed?

Yes, countries wage war, yet they have laws against killing, likewise wars have been fought in the name of religion - but the religions themselves set rules against killing. Killing innocent people is wrong - not negotiable.

IMO - anyone who seriously wants, wishes, or prays for innocent people to die at the hands of a mad-man should seek professional help - not hide behind any philosophy (real or created in their own mind).

 

[NeoDevin]

IMO - anyone who seriously wants, wishes, or prays for innocent people to die at the hands of a mad-man should seek professional help - not hide behind any philosophy (real or created in their own mind).

Agreed. But that's not what you originally posted:

They are clearly not Christian - regardless of what their business cards or tax filings claim.

Which was plainly an application of the "No true Christian" fallacy.

 

[arildno]

Killing innocent people is wrong - not negotiable.

Except, for example:
If it is necessary in order to protect the lives of a larger amount of innocents than they themselves constitute. Then it may be right to do just that.
Sometimes, this Devil's Dilemma is imposed upon us, and we have to drink an exceedingly bitter draught.

 

[Evo]

WhoWee is right, let's get off the religious tangent please.

 

[nismaratwork]

WhoWee is right, let's get off the religious tangent please.

There are hints, and there are Hints.

That I think, was a big freaking HINT

 

[WhoWee]

Agreed. But that's not what you originally posted:



Which was plainly an application of the "No true Christian" fallacy.

I wasn't trying to get into a debate about religion. I used the business card and tax reference to make the point they had an agenda other than the one their name implied.

 

[WhoWee]

WhoWee is right, let's get off the religious tangent please.

Sorry Evo, you posted while I was typing.

I just saw a mug shot of the shooter. It looks like they roughed him up a bit - but shouldn't be a problem for prosecutor - nothing you wouldn't expect in a case where someone was restrained for several minutes in a parking lot.

 

[nismaratwork]

Sorry Evo, you posted while I was typing.

I just saw a mug shot of the shooter. It looks like they roughed him up a bit - but shouldn't be a problem for prosecutor - nothing you wouldn't expect in a case where someone was restrained for several minutes in a parking lot.

Oh yeah, the look he's sporting there doesn't scream Helter Skelter at all... holy s***! It's a myth that truly crazy people don't look the part (some don't, most do), but he's not exactly leaving a lot of doubts is he?!

edit: The only time I've seen that smile/eyes combo is in people who, on an fMRI, might as well not have a frontal lobe...

 

[nismaratwork]

To quote one of Loughner's teachers, "When I saw [that it was loughner] I was shocked, but not surprised." Trite, but um... hey teach, W T H... maybe share that tidbit with the class a little more stridently than, "get help kid" *boot*.

 

[Evo]

So, it seems the consensus is that the death penalty will be requested. Also, it's not likely that insanity will be allowed as a defense, although a verdict of "guilty but insane" is possible.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_defense;_ylt=An4ejJuSCZPfkbJwEIkEj71H2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTQwamJhazgxBGFzc2V0Ay9zL2FwLzIwMTEwMTEwL2FwX29uX3JlX3VzL3VzX2NvbmdyZXNzd29tYW5fc2hvdF9kZWZlbnNlBGNjb2RlA21wX2VjXzhfMTAEY3BvcwMyBHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDaW5zYW5pdHlkZWZl

 

[turbo]

Mark Brooks is currently on PBS claiming that Sarah Palin, right-wing radio and Fox news have NO responsibility for the assassination attempt. That's disingenuous, at best, IMO. How can we define political civility in this atmosphere?

Can't we dial back the hate a bit?

 

[nismaratwork]

Mark Brooks is currently on PBS claiming that Sarah Palin, right-wing radio and Fox news have NO responsibility for the assassination attempt. That's disingenuous, at best, IMO. How can we define political civility in this atmosphere?

Can't we dial back the hate a bit?

Yes, but turbo... this man is not sane. Do we really want the basis for a reform in discourse to be based on that? I think the reaction is more PC than a genuine attempt to reconcile, and we don't need any more of that. Congress is united in decrying what they've been doing shamelessly the day before? Oh please. If we want lasting change, this can be part of that catalyst, but using this as a backstop is just more of the same ideological nonsense.

That said, it's already started, with the quote of Rep. Giffords expressing her concern over the Palin Map. I have to ask why at this point, now that we KNOW he had hostile contact with the congresswomen long before that map existed?!

If there is ANY cause to be championed here, and I don't think that there is, it's to revitalize the USA's pathetic mental health system. I'm yet to see THAT argument made, although his state of mind is possibly one of the only things we KNOW about Loughner.

Evo: It's AZ, he's already dead unless he is schizophrenic, and then it's life in an AZ mental wing of a prison in all likelihood... He's done. I wouldn't want to be the attorney trying to sway a jury of Arizonan peers that this man didn't know right from wrong. We put DAHMER in prison... need I say more? This country is so hysterical about the notion of a crime rate that's rising, while in reality it's doing the opposite. When you start to talk about someone being mentally ill, you just get instant slippery slope arguments that somehow we're going to let the criminals run amok.

There's no NEW discourse here... this is just the usual fluctuation in our culture, and to pretend otherwise is to delude ourselves. Reading this thread (my contributions included) should make that abundantly clear.

 

[mugaliens]

WhoWee is right, let's get off the religious tangent please.

Seconded. Whatever arguments along those lines are neither here nor there.

 

[Lacy33]

Has anyone else here seen the newest photo of the shooter on CNN? That's scary!

 

[mugaliens]

Mark Brooks is currently on PBS claiming that Sarah Palin, right-wing radio and Fox news have NO responsibility for the assassination attempt. That's disingenuous, at best, IMO. How can we define political civility in this atmosphere?

Can't we dial back the hate a bit?

Yes, Turbo, we can. Start by dialing back your insinuations involving Palin.

I don't like her, either, but I'll sit down with her at a salmon and egg breakfast any day. I might learn something! She might learn something, too.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

When these types of events happen, I don't recall and I'm not aware of one conservative, one Republican, one conservative blogger making a mad dash to a microphone, a camera or a computer to blame a Democrat or liberals for what happened in Arizona on Saturday.

But a mad path was beaten. Now, don't kid yourself. What this is all about is shutting down any and all political opposition and eventually criminalizing it, criminalizing policy differences, at least when they differ from the Democrat Party agenda.
- RUSH LIMBAUGH

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june11/rhetoric_01-10.html#transcript
emphasis mine

It sounds like Rush is feeling a little uncomfortable. Palin hasn't made any public statements beyond a confused tweet.

"I hate violence. I hate war. Our children will not have peace if politicos just capitalize on this to succeed in portraying anyone as inciting terror and violence."

She seems to think fingers are pointing randomly. While perhaps unjustified, the fingers are all pointing at the same person [in addition to a few others].

War?

 

[WhoWee]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june11/rhetoric_01-10.html#transcript
emphasis mine

It sounds like Rush is feeling a little uncomfortable. Palin hasn't made any public statements beyond a confused tweet.



She seems to think fingers are pointing randomly. While perhaps unjustified, the fingers are all pointing at the same person [in addition to a few others].

War?

I was more than a little surprised to see the sheriff on so many channels - saying the same thing over and over. On the other hand, the FBI is apparently doing his job - he might need something to make him look busy?

 

[lisab]

I was more than a little surprised to see the sheriff on so many channels - saying the same thing over and over. On the other hand, the FBI is apparently doing his job - he might need something to make him look busy?

Probably the Secret Service took over? Just a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[WhoWee]

Probably the Secret Service took over? Just a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me.

You could be correct? I just recall the President noting that the FBI Director was on his way to the area.

 

[Proton Soup]

She seems to think fingers are pointing randomly. While perhaps unjustified, the fingers are all pointing at the same person [in addition to a few others].

at who? Satan? his parents? his algebra teacher?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345895/Tucson-gunman-Jared-Loughner-appears-court.html

War?

are we back to blaming the gov't?

 

[Proton Soup]

Has anyone else here seen the newest photo of the shooter on CNN? That's scary!

ja, it's in the link i just posted. crazy with a capital c in an odd font.