Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[Proton Soup]

yeah, this has Brady Bill written all over it, doesn't it?

that didn't take long. i wonder how ugly this will get.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47338.html

 

[WhoWee]

To me, what probably matters more than any definite link between Palin or Fox, and this shooting, is the fact that there could be one. They have made their beds. They chose to exploit the masses. They chose to lie; to exploit fear and anger. Now they have to live with the consequences of their actions. There will always be a question in people's minds as to whether Palin caused this or not. It will never go away.

Are you aware that Bill Hemmer interviewed Rep. Gabrielle Giffords the day before on FOX? I heard the interview, it was very pleasant and they discussed how she refers to herself as a former Republican and considered by some to be a Conservative Democrat. As mentioned earlier, she participated in the reading of the Constitution. She was quite optimistic about the progress that would be made in the next Congress.

The FOX coverage was quite positive of her - again, the DAY BEFORE the shooting!

 

[WhoWee]

It’s very easy to get a little confused if you just bump in and hit on the first post you see, without getting the full context in earlier posts.

I'll ask again - do you have a direct link of Beck calling for an action of this type?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

The tea party is whatever you want it to be. There is no "party". There are no designated leaders. There is no reasoned platform. There is no accountability to voters or reality. It is just a bunch of angry people lapping up the hype from Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, and anyone else yelling into a microphone and exploiting our precious right to freedom of speech, for money.

To me, what probably matters more than any definite link between Palin or Fox, and this shooting, is the fact that there could be one. They have made their beds. They chose to exploit the masses. They chose to lie; to exploit fear and anger. Now they have to live with the consequences of their actions. There will always be a question in people's minds as to whether Palin caused this or not. It will never go away.

Ivan, I want to join your party. You are the smartest guy around here.

 

[WhoWee]

Well, the "Second Revolution" flag seems to be ready for delivery...

And I still haven’t got any answers on how Sarah Palin gets 30% in the polls...?

There seems to be some hope and no hope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgec9WX21ik

Why is this allowed to continue - what is the topic of this thread? Is this thread about the popularity of Palin?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I'll ask again - do you have a direct link of Beck calling for an action of this type?

If you have read the earlier posts and still don’t understand, why should I explain again??

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Why is this allowed to continue

Freedom of speech

 

[WhoWee]

Freedom of speech

Not if it means breaking the rules.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Not if it means breaking the rules.

And you make the rules?

The Gadsden Flag is a favorite among the Tea Party movement nationwide

 

[WhoWee]

And you make the rules?

The Gadsden Flag is a favorite among the Tea Party movement nationwide

No, but I've been told to follow them enough times to know when something is out of bounds. Would you like to ask for moderation?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

First call to get back on some meaningful discussion relevant to the OP.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Is there an update on her prognosis? I'm still stunned that someone could even survive this.

 

[arildno]

Is there an update on her prognosis? I'm still stunned that someone could even survive this.

To be shot through the brain and survive?

I agree, it can't be often that a person experiencing such a trauma can even respond to verbal commands as her doctors have reported.

Tough lady.

I hope she will pull through, but I fear that with these types of wounds, death can come suddenly and "inexplicably".

 

[lisab]

Is there an update on her prognosis? I'm still stunned that someone could even survive this.

I heard (on CNN, I think) the bullet only passed through just one hemisphere of her brain, and that improves her prognosis. Now she's been put into a coma until the swelling goes down...it's just wait and see at this point. Must be hell on her loved ones.

 

[WhoWee]

I heard (on CNN, I think) the bullet only passed through just one hemisphere of her brain, and that improves her prognosis. Now she's been put into a coma until the swelling goes down...it's just wait and see at this point. Must be hell on her loved ones.

Did you see this segment with Dr. Sanjay Gupta onbrain injuries and the treatment of Rep. Giffords?
http://www.shoppingblog.com/blog/1091124

 

[Math Is Hard]

I'm pulling for her, too. I am so very sad for her and her family.

I didn't know it was only one brain hemisphere that had been been penetrated. I've read about brain surgeons doing hemisphere removals in children with severe epilepsy, and due to plasticity, they recover very nicely. Could adults also recover from these traumatic hemisphere injuries? From what I remember, younger people recover better.

 

[arildno]

A modest heroine speaks out.

Patricia Maisch, 61, was the woman who in the altercation with the gunman got hold of his magazine before he could reload.
Although others have already labelled her a hero, instrumental in stopping the shooting, she is adamant in this interview to limit her role to a tiny part after "two gentlemen" had pinned the gunman down, and that a third man grabbed the gun from him at the same time as she got hold of the magazine. She could easily have basked in the sun, by playing the grand heroine, but she chooses not to.

In a matter.of-fact way, as if it was the natural thing to do under the circumstances, she says that after the man was securely held down, she herself just went to find a roll of tissue paper to make a compression for a woman next to her with a bleeding head wound.

If we all can be as level-headed and compassionate as Mrs. Mairsch showed herself to be, the world would be a much better place:
http://www.foxnewsinsider.com/2011/01/09/patricia-maisch-im-not-the-hero-of-az-shooting/

 

[edward]

Is there an update on her prognosis? I'm still stunned that someone could even survive this.

The latest that I heard from the University hospital doctors is that her survival is an optimistic wait and see situation.

The bullet entered the back of her head and traversed the entire length of the left hemisphere before it exited in the front.

They are optimistic because the bullet didn't pass through both hemispheres.

In gruesome detail, they removed a large section of her skull to avoid a pressure build up. They cleaned out bullet and bone fragments and removed some damaged tissue.

She is unable to open her eyes or speak, but she will resond to simple commands such as raising a finger.



If all goes well the section of skull will be replaced within several months.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Patricia Maisch, 61, was the woman who in the altercation with the gunman got hold of his magazine before he could reload.
Although others have already labelled her a hero, instrumental in stopping the shooting, she is adamant in this interview to limit her role to a tiny part after "two gentlemen" had pinned the gunman down, and that a third man grabbed the gun from him at the same time as she got hold of the magazine. She could easily have basked in the sun, by playing the grand heroine, but she chooses not to.

In a matter.of-fact way, as if it was the natural thing to do under the circumstances, she says that after the man was securely held down, she herself just went to find a roll of tissue paper to make a compression for a woman next to her with a bleeding head wound.

If we all can be as level-headed and compassionate as Mrs. Mairsch showed herself to be, the world would be a much better place:
http://www.foxnewsinsider.com/2011/01/09/patricia-maisch-im-not-the-hero-of-az-shooting/

I'm so glad you posted that. There has been too little coverage of the heroes who prevented further tragedy.

 

[alt]

Patricia Maisch, 61, was the woman who in the altercation with the gunman got hold of his magazine before he could reload.
Although others have already labelled her a hero, instrumental in stopping the shooting, she is adamant in this interview to limit her role to a tiny part after "two gentlemen" had pinned the gunman down, and that a third man grabbed the gun from him at the same time as she got hold of the magazine. She could easily have basked in the sun, by playing the grand heroine, but she chooses not to.

In a matter.of-fact way, as if it was the natural thing to do under the circumstances, she says that after the man was securely held down, she herself just went to find a roll of tissue paper to make a compression for a woman next to her with a bleeding head wound.

If we all can be as level-headed and compassionate as Mrs. Mairsch showed herself to be, the world would be a much better place:
http://www.foxnewsinsider.com/2011/01/09/patricia-maisch-im-not-the-hero-of-az-shooting/

If we all can be as level-headed and compassionate as Mrs. Mairsch showed herself to be, the world would be a much better place:

.. you see, the world IS full of good people.

I read once that the best politician is he / she who ain't one, and would refuse the job if offered to him / her.

What about that poor little girl that was killed ? During a brief reading of the front page of my newspaper this morning, I seemed to have read she was born on 9/11, and her birth was celebrated and used as a symbol of hope. The irony.

What about the shooter ? I also read briefly that he had a high hit rate for shots fired. If this was targetted (rather than shooting into a crowd), it would be extraordinary performance, and great cause for thought.

Anyhow, my condolences to the victims and their loved ones - and to the Republic.

I sympathise with the anguish you good people are feeling about this, and feel it too.

 

[nismaratwork]

I heard (on CNN, I think) the bullet only passed through just one hemisphere of her brain, and that improves her prognosis. Now she's been put into a coma until the swelling goes down...it's just wait and see at this point. Must be hell on her loved ones.

Edward has it, but I'd add that she can't open her eyes because it sounds as though her left orbit was shattered, that eye was nearly lost, and she's back in a medically induced coma.

A word about "recovery", and "prognosis" as I've heard it used here:

THERE IS NONE. Once someone has a bullet pass through their brain, you're dealing with:
-Initial wound track
-Fragments of bone acting lacerating the brain, driven by the bullet
-Secondary cavitation that only becomes evident upon necrosis of neurons many days or weeks later
-Swelling and the fear of herniation (why they removed a portion of her skull, in addition to protecting the brain)
-Infection... oh lord infection.

Then... for recovery, she's already ahead of the game, but if she lives AND wakes up again... I wouldn't be shocked anymore... this is one tough lady. I WOULD however be shocked if she doesn't spend the rest of her life severely disabled, should she ever regain primary mobility, if she wakes up... if she lives. This woman was shot, and the man who kept her alive on scene unfortunately had to apply pressure to the wound. I can't tell you how it makes me cringe to know the risk of infection as a result, and ANY time there's a catastrophic breach of the BBB.

It's also worth pointing out that she could wake up with slurred speech and right-sided weakness, which... would be the equivalent in my mind to a miracle. Once someone lives through this, it's waiting... waiting... and then if they recover... more waiting... a lifetime of putting the pieces back together.


re: Brady Bill comments: You mean, if she recovers she'd be a perfect advocate for a bill based on this (gun control or other), or that her astronaut husband would be a fairly sympathetic figure in her stead? Yeah... I think so too, because it doesn't matter what happned to who, or why... there's political hay to be made. *vomit*

 

[nismaratwork]

OOOOOK... just when you thought a guy who shot 20 people couldn't get any creepier...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/10/arizona.shooting.investigation/index.html?hpt=T1

But court documents released Sunday show that investigators found a letter from the congresswoman in a safe at the house where Loughner lived with his parents, thanking him for attending a similar 2007 event.

"Also recovered in the safe was an envelope with handwriting on the envelope stating 'I planned ahead,' and 'my assassination' and the name 'Giffords,' along with what appears to be Loughner's signature," the affidavit states.

So, maybe he had issues or a fixation with this woman, or maybe when he was looking for targets he remembered attending her meeting. Either way, this may have been "convenient", but it wasn't impulsive or random.

 

[arildno]

I don't think it is, per se, abnormal to keep a thank-you letter from a high ranking politician.

His murderous obsession might have developed much later than when he received it back in 2007; at a later stage when his general mental health worsened considerably.

Perhaps he was full of hopes, back then?
And then, those hopes all turned to ashes. Perhaps the bland, encouraging words given to him from Mrs. Giffords then took on some dark, sinister meaning he hadn't noticed before..

 

[D H]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/10/arizona.shooting.investigation/index.html?hpt=T1

But court documents released Sunday show that investigators found a letter from the congresswoman in a safe at the house where Loughner lived with his parents, thanking him for attending a similar 2007 event.

"Also recovered in the safe was an envelope with handwriting on the envelope stating 'I planned ahead,' and 'my assassination' and the name 'Giffords,' along with what appears to be Loughner's signature," the affidavit states.

This says to me that Loughner has been seriously and dangerously mentally ill for a long time and that he has had Giffords in his sights for a long time as well. No external prodding was needed. All that was needed was the opportunity that she was coming to / perceived insult that she was invading his home turf.

 

[Evo]

I don't think it is, per se, abnormal to keep a thank-you letter from a high ranking politician.

His murderous obsession might have developed much later than when he received it back in 2007; at a later stage when his general mental health worsened considerably.

Perhaps he was full of hopes, back then?
And then, those hopes all turned to ashes. Perhaps the bland, encouraging words given to him from Mrs. Giffords then took on some dark, sinister meaning he hadn't noticed before..

I think this will explain better.

TUCSON, Ariz. – At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and had nothing to say.

"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.

Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case. To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonlinear and obsessed with how words create reality.

The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: That of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.

"If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem," the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15, part of a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with this: "What's government if words don't have meaning?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_gunman_11

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't think it is, per se, abnormal to keep a thank-you letter from a high ranking politician.

His murderous obsession might have developed much later than when he received it back in 2007; at a later stage when his general mental health worsened considerably.

Perhaps he was full of hopes, back then?
And then, those hopes all turned to ashes. Perhaps the bland, encouraging words given to him from Mrs. Giffords then took on some dark, sinister meaning he hadn't noticed before..

It's possible... I was engaging in the unfortunate act of trying to find a rational causal chain with an irrational link: Loughner. Given the description of his past I have to say, he used (at least marijuana) drugs, dropped out of high school, was BOOTED from community college for outbursts in the classroom... more and more I suspect mid-onset of schizophrenia or bipolar with a sustained manic phase. The marijuana use, while not a cause, HAS been shown to be a risk factor in (sometimes) early emergence of psychosis... especially schizophrenia... and he'd have been the perfect age for it.

It's unusual for schizophrenics to be so violent and organized in their violence, but everyone is different, and it is a condition/disease with a course that tends to decline.

In the end, I suspect that you're correct: he probably attended those meetings because of his beliefs about the government, but a fixation on a particular person seems to be tangential to the act of lashing out at a representative of what he hated and feared. Above all this illustrates how hard it can be to predict this behaviour (hindsight makes it easy), and even when you confirm that troubling sign... who is the target?

 

[nismaratwork]

This says to me that Loughner has been seriously and dangerously mentally ill for a long time and that he has had Giffords in his sights for a long time as well. No external prodding was needed. All that was needed was the opportunity that she was coming to / perceived insult that she was invading his home turf.

Yep... I'm still placing my bets on schizophrenia given the age and writing. If not that, then DD:NOS, or prolonged use of hallucinogens or amphetamines.

 

[Evo]

Read my post #295 nismar, he was angry specificially at Giffords, aside from other problems he might have.

 

[arildno]

A couple I can't help feel sorry for are Jared's..parents.

Jared's Dad has been described as the stret a**hole, I guess that would mean the irate, asocial man screaming at neighbourhood kids to keep off his lawn, or stop laughing&playing outside his window. that doesn't make him a criminal, it doesn't make him into an objectively bad parent, either.

I don't think it can be any worse anguish than seeing your own children slowly go to pieces in front of you.
The hardest part is probably to face up to that that is actually what is happening. Many will rather go into denial, hoping against hope that "everything will turn out better tomorrow", clinging at the ever rarer "good moments".

It is not easy to admit defeat (particularly about the well-being of your loved ones), and Jared's murderous rage might well have been triggered by a firmness in his parents he'd never met before. He didn't buy that gun before November 30th, a month after he was forced out of school, apparently with his parents at last fully informed about how badly he was faring.

Most of the really sinister rants we've seen seem to be from this period as well.Now, the parents must feel like pariahs, filthy, with only their son's execution to look forward to. And no one who can understand their strange dilemmas of guilt&despair

It might be perverse, but I feel for them as well. They have also lost a son for good in this tragedy.

 

[nismaratwork]

Read my post #295 nismar, he was angry specificially at Giffords, aside from other problems he might have.

I did, at the same I was shaking my fist and shouting, "EVOOOOOO!". I need to be less verbose...
He clearly had it in for her, but was it proximity because of the district, or because of some other element of her, including gender? He MAY have intentionally gunned down a 9 year old girl... that's some serious rage and confusion; if it was unintentional, his lack of remorse is telling.


Arildno: Until we know more about his parents, it's hard to know, but his pathology seems more consistent with so much separation from others that I doubt his parents had a chance. Of course, they could be horrible people, or the greatest people on earth, who happened to mix their genes badly.