Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the shooting incident involving U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and several others at a grocery store in Tucson, Arizona. Participants share updates on her condition, eyewitness accounts, and reactions to the unfolding events. The scope includes personal experiences, media reports, and emotional responses to the tragedy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Initial reports indicated that Gabrielle Giffords had died, but later updates suggested she was alive and undergoing surgery.
  • Some participants expressed uncertainty about the motivations behind the shooting, questioning whether it was targeted or random.
  • Eyewitness accounts describe the chaotic scene, with one participant detailing their experience in the store during the shooting.
  • Conflicting reports about the number of victims emerged, with some stating 12 were shot, while later updates indicated 18 victims.
  • Participants noted the critical condition of several victims, including a child, and discussed the implications of a gunshot wound to the head.
  • There were mentions of a Federal Judge being shot alongside Giffords, adding to the severity of the incident.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the details of the incident, including the status of Giffords and the motivations of the shooter. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants rely on evolving news reports, which may contain inaccuracies or conflicting information regarding the number of victims and the condition of Giffords. Eyewitness accounts vary in detail and emotional impact.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in firsthand accounts of traumatic events, the impact of violence on communities, and the emotional responses to public tragedies may find this discussion relevant.

  • #301
nismaratwork said:
I did, at the same I was shaking my fist and shouting, "EVOOOOOO!". I need to be less verbose...
He clearly had it in for her, but was it proximity because of the district, or because of some other element of her, including gender? He MAY have intentionally gunned down a 9 year old girl... that's some serious rage and confusion; if it was unintentional, his lack of remorse is telling.


Arildno: Until we know more about his parents, it's hard to know, but his pathology seems more consistent with so much separation from others that I doubt his parents had a chance. Of course, they could be horrible people, or the greatest people on earth, who happened to mix their genes badly.

Even the dragons love their ugly chicks.
So, I'd feel sorry for them, even if they are horrid people (the mother gets generally good grades among the family's neighbours)
 
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  • #302
nismaratwork said:
He clearly had it in for her, but was it proximity because of the district
In another article i read that he was upset at her also because she was for more lenient immigration laws and he was against immigrants, he felt they were bringing the area down academically. Don't ask to me to back through 100 articles to find this, take that tidbit or leave it until I stumble back upon it. Also, proximity was a big thing, he lived a few miles away.

Arildno: Until we know more about his parents, it's hard to know, but his pathology seems more consistent with so much separation from others that I doubt his parents had a chance. Of course, they could be horrible people, or the greatest people on earth, who happened to mix their genes badly.
I've also read that the family was avoided by neighbors, they rode old souped up cars they worked on up and down the streets and their yard was unkept. As one neighbor said "when we went door to door to sell girlscout cookies we never went to *that* house. :-p Sounds more like misfits than bad people, but who knows?
 
  • #303
Evo said:
Also, proximity was a big thing, he lived a few miles away.
A very big thing. Opportunity coupled with the fact that this woman that he despised was invading his home turf.
 
  • #304
Evo said:
I think this will explain better.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_gunman_11

(Quote from Evo's link)

"The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around. The crew smoked marijuana everyday, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.

Mistrust of government was his defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world."

This sounds like a very paranoid person - pot probably didn't help him grasp reality.

Not that any of this makes sense, and given the information he was angry at her, I find it difficult to understand why he attacked anyone except Rep. Giffords?

IMO - my instincts tell me he used her as an excuse to attack the society that he clearly did not fit into - it was the validating point (in his twisted mind) for a final act of desperation.
 
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  • #305
Holy cow! 300+ posts in less than 48 hours! That's more than 6 posts per hour.

I think this set a new PF record!
 
  • #306
Here is more Local information on Loughner. He had contact with Pima Community College police 5 times. He was expelled from the college in September.

He was told that he must obtain a mental health evauation that stated that he was not a danger to anyone befor he could return He never went back to the School.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7230682n&tag=related;photovideo

When the College Administration mentions police I believe that it was Campus police and not the Tucson Police Department.

http://www.azbiz.com/articles/2011/01/08/news/breaking_news/doc4d29463932228218107137.txt

More here:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...hner-gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting.html
 
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  • #307
arildno said:
Even the dragons love their ugly chicks.
So, I'd feel sorry for them, even if they are horrid people (the mother gets generally good grades among the family's neighbours)

It's sad, but true, and as I said I really doubt that their parenting had much to do with this. In essence I see the portrait of someone who as you and others have said, has been obviously and profoundly mentally ill for YEARS.


Evo: If this is, as I conjecture, schizophrenia, then first order relatives can be expected to exhibit as-yet odd behavioral traits associated with schizophreniform disorders. If not, well... as you say, they could be misfits, it could be an abusive father, or none of the above.

Of course, it may be that neighbors are vilifying them now, or that they're wonderful people who were driven to distraction with the struggle to nurture a child who, as arildno says, fell apart over time.

edward: Had to get an eval... well... that's fairly clear. He's in the perfect age-range for the emergence of schizophrenia... which, if true, would make this even more sad. Not Palin, not parents, not videogames or the internet... just a kid who's mind fell apart, and the man he became.
 
  • #308
WhoWee said:
This sounds like a very paranoid person - pot probably didn't help him grasp reality.

Not that any of this makes sense, and given the information he was angry at her, I find it difficult to understand why he attacked anyone except Rep. Giffords?

IMO - my instincts tell me he used her as an excuse to attack the society that he clearly did not fit into - it was the validating point (in his twisted mind) for a final act of desperation.

I don't trust our government, and I carry a firearm pretty much everywhere I go. However, this kid's actions are reprehensible. Approximately 4 million other U.S. 22-year olds aren't gunning down members of Congress, so there's definitely something wrong with this fellow.

My instincts tell me you're right, WhoWee. Congresswoman Giffords was an unfortunate target of opportunity for this perp.

I find it interesting that he had tried to cut in line, unarmed, but was rebuffed by another person waiting in line. Only then did he loose it, retrieve his gun from his vehicle, and return to commit this heinous crime.

Sounds to me like it was a crime of passion. I recently read that in the U.S. politics are about 30% more closely held (i.e. hotly contested) than religion. Regardless, I can't tell you how many times I've been stirred into rage by one issue or another. That doesn't mean I blow my stack, pick up a gun, and start blazing away, however. More than 99% of all humans have a normally-developed portion of our brains which keeps us from doing harm to others unless it's absolutely necessary for self-preservation. The only reason I routinely carry a firearm is because that statistic is less than 100%, and on one occasion, more than 20 years ago, it saved my life.

As for this kid, I feel sorry that he just royally flushed his life down the drain, and more sorry for the friends and family members of those whom he harmed. Where were his parents during his upbringing? I have a ten-year-old son with whom I, limited by divorce decree to just 12% of his life, attempt to steer him in the right direction. Quite frankly, and according to him, I think I'm having more a positive effect on his life than his 88% mother!

Regardless, it's a sad state of affairs, period. I really wonder whether his parents are wondering where they went wrong, or are merely writing him off.

I sincerely hope the powers that be recognize this has nothing to do with the availability of a firearm. In fact, I hope and pray everyone with more than two cents worth of brains would recognize that had I or any of the other 10% of our population who carries a firearm on a regular basis been there, the kid would not have managed to get off more than two shots.

I thank God for the two people who tackled him to the ground. Brave souls, they were, and they earned a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Gold_Medal" .

I'm forwarding a recommendation to that effect to my Congressman. If you concur, https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml". Thank you.
 
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  • #309
mugaliens said:
I don't trust our government, and I carry a firearm pretty much everywhere I go. However, this kid's actions are reprehensible. Approximately 4 million other U.S. 22-year olds aren't gunning down members of Congress, so there's definitely something wrong with this fellow.

My instincts tell me you're right, WhoWee. Congresswoman Giffords was an unfortunate target of opportunity for this perp.

I find it interesting that he had tried to cut in line, unarmed, but was rebuffed by another person waiting in line. Only then did he loose it, retrieve his gun from his vehicle, and return to commit this heinous crime.

Sounds to me like it was a crime of passion. I recently read that in the U.S. politics are about 30% more closely held (i.e. hotly contested) than religion. Regardless, I can't tell you how many times I've been stirred into rage by one issue or another. That doesn't mean I blow my stack, pick up a gun, and start blazing away, however. More than 99% of all humans have a normally-developed portion of our brains which keeps us from doing harm to others unless it's absolutely necessary for self-preservation. The only reason I routinely carry a firearm is because that statistic is less than 100%, and on one occasion, more than 20 years ago, it saved my life.

As for this kid, I feel sorry that he just royally flushed his life down the drain, and more sorry for the friends and family members of those whom he harmed. It's a sad state of affairs, period.

I sincerely hope the powers that be recognize this has nothing to do with the availability of a firearm. In fact, I hope and pray everyone with more than two cents worth of brains would recognize that had I or any of the other 10% of our population who carries a firearm on a regular basis been there, the kid would not have managed to get off more than two shots.

I thank God for the two people who tackled him to the ground. Brave souls, they were, and they earned a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Gold_Medal" .

I'm forwarding a recommendation to that effect to my Congressman. If you concur, https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml". Thank you.

He's most definitely not in the 99%, and I'll write my congressperson. I can say that it's the type of thing that I feel strongly about, but I can see the merit in the award for those two.
 
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  • #310
mugaliens said:
I find it interesting that he had tried to cut in line, unarmed, but was rebuffed by another person waiting in line. Only then did he loose it, retrieve his gun from his vehicle, and return to commit this heinous crime.

Sounds like the kid in Omaha that shot the principle over a small suspension. A massive overreaction to the final falling straw, but it was always a culmination of life long events.

No doubt this is tragic, but let's not lose focus that countless people all over the country/world are being murdered every day. Why does it take a congresswomen to wake people up?
 
  • #311
Greg Bernhardt said:
Sounds like the kid in Omaha that shot the principle over a small suspension. A massive overreaction to the final falling straw, but it was always a culmination of life long events.

No doubt this is tragic, but let's not lose focus that countless people all over the country/world are being murdered every day. Why does it take a congresswomen to wake people up?

It takes a congresswoman because she's pretty, her husband is an astronaut, and it's a built-in media sensation. Oh... and now other members of congress are wetting themselves, which tends to be a very public process.

We might as well ask why only little white girls are kidnapped, and no little black or Hispanic girls! *sigh* They're not, it's just the story that's sold. I would add that given his apparent obsession with this woman, paranoia, recent defeat at college, move home, and in November the purchase of this gun... I think this wasn't an accident.

mugalians: How did he retrieve his gun from a vehicle? He arrived in a cab. He walked to a staffer, asked to see the congresswoman (saw the staffer talk about this on the scene on CNN), was told to go to the back of the line, he returned "moments later" and began shooting.
 
  • #312
nismaratwork said:
mugalians: How did he retrieve his gun from a vehicle? He arrived in a cab. He walked to a staffer, asked to see the congresswoman (saw the staffer talk about this on the scene on CNN), was told to go to the back of the line, he returned "moments later" and began shooting.

Has there been any mention of security cameras in the parking lot?
 
  • #313
mugaliens said:
I find it interesting that he had tried to cut in line, unarmed, but was rebuffed by another person waiting in line. Only then did he loose it, retrieve his gun from his vehicle, and return to commit this heinous crime.
Can you post the link to this story? I can't find it. He was driven by taxi, he didn't have a vehicle. I read that the driver went into the store to get change for a $20 and that was why he was initially thought to be involved.

Thanks.
 
  • #314
Evo said:
Can you post the link to this story? I can't find it. He was driven by taxi, he didn't have a vehicle. I read that the driver went into the store to get change for a $20 and that was why he was initially thought to be involved.

Thanks.

There will not be a credible link to the story because it didn't happen that way. Loughner took a cab to the scene. The cab driver was the person of interest who was later cleared.

A staffer asked Loughner to please wait because there were people in front of him. He didn't come to the gathering with a Glock handgun and at least three high capacity clips just to chat.
 
  • #316
edward said:
As if it couldn't be any worse. The Westboro Baptist Church is coming to Picket the funerals.

This could get really nasty.

Fred W. Phelps, leader of the anti-gay Westboro Baptist Church that regularly pickets the funerals of troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, is praising the killings in Tucson and says his group will picket the funerals.


A federal appeals court last year ruled that picketing by the church congregation at funerals is free speech protected by the Constitution. The issue is now before the Supreme Court.

Phelps, in a video on his group's web site, thanks God for the "marvelous work in Tucson," which he says is part of God's vengeance on America. He says his church prays for "more shooters ... more dead."

I am just sickened by what this country has turned into.
 
  • #317
edward said:
As if it couldn't be any worse. The Westboro Baptist Church is coming to Picket the funerals.

This could get really nasty.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...urch-group-plans-to-picket-tucston-funerals/1

That's... genuinely offensive. What the hell is wrong with people?! They think that their god, this supposed god of love, mercy and infinite forgiveness wants them to torment the bereaved?! I'm glad we have the freedom to express ourselves, not only for its own sake, but so that people like this can openly declare that they're insane.

WhoWee: There hasn't been any that I've heard of, but given that the FBI is in charge of this, and they have their suspect in custody... it could be a while before we know. I just hope they're not released... this little **** would be thrilled to get the publicity.
 
  • #318
Evo said:
I am just sickened by what this country has turned into.

Wow... are they positive that they're not satanists? Within the framework of christianity, praying for murder seems... pretty evil.

More importantly, why are the nuts always the ones who die of old age? We keep Cheney, but Carlin goes... we keep O'Reilly and lose Tiller... you ge the idea.
 
  • #319
nismaratwork said:
WhoWee: There hasn't been any that I've heard of, but given that the FBI is in charge of this, and they have their suspect in custody... it could be a while before we know. I just hope they're not released... this little **** would be thrilled to get the publicity.

I can't imagine the FBI EVER releasing a video - just wondering if there were cameras observed on the building. My local WalMart has about a dozen in clear view.
 
  • #320
nismaratwork said:
Wow... are they positive that they're not satanists? Within the framework of christianity, praying for murder seems... pretty evil.

More importantly, why are the nuts always the ones who die of old age? We keep Cheney, but Carlin goes... we keep O'Reilly and lose Tiller... you ge the idea.

it's not just them. it's every other organization that will be exploiting this tragedy for their own interests. we're a nation of Westboros.
 
  • #321
nismaratwork said:
Wow... are they positive that they're not satanists? Within the framework of christianity, praying for murder seems... pretty evil.

They are clearly not Christian - regardless of what their business cards or tax filings claim.
 
  • #322
They just want attention. They've been looking for the most egregious way to offend people so they can get their message out, and they found it with funeral protesting. If people really want to stop them, they should ignore them and refuse to acknowledge they even exist.

I won't even say their name.
 
  • #323
Newai said:
They just want attention. They've been looking for the most egregious way to offend people so they can get their message out, and they found it with funeral protesting. If people really want to stop them, they should ignore them and refuse to acknowledge they even exist.

I won't even say their name.

I agree. The media should just leave them alone, it's not news anymore.
 
  • #324
WhoWee said:
They are clearly not Christian - regardless of what their business cards or tax filings claim.

No argument here, but I was worried about some unscrupulous *** along the way selling copies of the tapes, not the FBI. I don't believe the FBI has ever shared evidence it didn't need to, and frankly... good... federal or not, cops should play it close to the vest unless forced.

Proton Soup: I think protesting a funeral is especially unusual, which is why it strikes me as especially despicable. That said, you're right that people systematically using this for gun control, gun rights, media, no media... whatever... the moment loughner's writing became public the justification for that dialogue died. The thing is, our political environment IS terrible, and if this is used as a bludgeon to knock sense into people... well, right or wrong, I can understand the desire for that outcome.

Of course when I go to hell, I know what the road will be paved with!

Newai: ...Or we could dart them like bears run amok and release them into the wilderness where they belong. (THAT IS A JOKE MENTORS)
 
  • #325
WhoWee said:
They are clearly not Christian - regardless of what their business cards or tax filings claim.

The old "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman" " fallacy, haven't seen that in a while. :rolleyes:
 
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  • #326
While we can all agree that Loughner's acts were reprehensible (although I will hesitate to call this mental disaster area himself as reprehensible), and that Westboro Church is just sickening, the following is truly ghastly:

Hillary Clinton has just equated the Giffords shooting with the 9/11 act.

Besides being totally wrong on the underlying sociology/psychology of these acts (and hence, worse than useless as basis for political analysis), it is a truly vile politicizing of a tragedy cause by a lone nutcase:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8250809/Hillary-Clinton-compares-Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-to-911-attacks.html

Shame on Mrs. Clinton, this is too low.
 
  • #327
NeoDevin said:
The old "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman" " fallacy, haven't seen that in a while. :rolleyes:

Is there a detailed rulebook which Scotsmen need to follow in order to be considered Scotsman?

When the first commandment of your religion is to not murder, and they're praying EXPLICITLY for murder, I'd say this is like me claiming to be the only true Scotsman... and I'm so far from Scotch that if I were alcoholic I'd have DTs.
 
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  • #328
nismaratwork said:
He's most definitely not in the 99%, and I'll write my congressperson. I can say that it's the type of thing that I feel strongly about, but I can see the merit in the award for those two.

Thank you! They deserve it.

Greg Bernhardt said:
A massive overreaction to the final falling straw, but it was always a culmination of life long events.

Bingo, Greg. We're reading about the straw the broke the camel's back.

...let's not lose focus that countless people all over the country/world are being murdered every day. Why does it take a congresswomen to wake people up?

I dunno. I will attest, however, that since the mid-1980s, I've rarely been asleep.
 
  • #329
NeoDevin said:
The old "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman" " fallacy, haven't seen that in a while. :rolleyes:

Rule number one is "Thou shall not kill" - any philosophical deviation from that one is a problem. Your fun aside, their views not representative of any mainstream religious philosophy.
 
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  • #330
nismaratwork said:
mugalians: How did he retrieve his gun from a vehicle? He arrived in a cab. He walked to a staffer, asked to see the congresswoman (saw the staffer talk about this on the scene on CNN), was told to go to the back of the line, he returned "moments later" and began shooting.

Oh. Just parroting what was in the news. My (and their) bad.

Thanks for setting the record strait.
 

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