Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

America is messed up.

In Canada we buy bagels.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Yes it is. It is about time for him to retire.

Oh, I don’t know anything about that... I’m on the other side of "the lake" (Europe), but he looks cool to me, kind of "John Wayne"-type (bigger brain probably)...

[URL]http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2009/05/l115805-100.jpg[/URL]

 

[Jack21222]

I'd put my money on the fact that he lived there and probably had never even seen that ad. I mean come on, he snapped and he went after the closest target. If he had actually done any serious traveling to carry out this act, I would give such an idea consideration.

Closest target? Come on, Pengwuino, don't be absurd. He didn't go after the closest target, that would have been the person who drove him there. The police say they don't think he transported himself. The next closest targets would have been the people between him and the congresswoman.

Authorities had pursued the possibility of at least one other suspect early on in the investigation. They mentioned that Loughner did not appear to have driven to the area and may have been dropped off or taken other modes of transportation.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/08/20110108arizona-giffords-brk.html

I'd really like to know where you're getting this "closest target" thing from, because unless you post something to back it up, I'll assume it's coming from your lower intestine.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

I'd really like to know where you're getting this "closest target" thing from, because unless you post something to back it up, I'll assume it's coming from your lower intestine.

[URL]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/2pys0vr.png[/URL] [PLAIN]http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/nfandom/yelrotflmao.gif[ATTACH=full]197016[/ATTACH][ATTACH=full]197017[/ATTACH][ATTACH=full]197018[/ATTACH]

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Fox News is resorting that the shooter is an Afghan War veteran, 22 yr old white male.

The initial reports were that he was an afghan war veteran but the military is saying they have no record of him serving.

I think you mean to say that Fox was pushing that bogus information. When Nismar posted that I almost objected as the police hadn't even released his name yet.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZtfUaQXnow

 

[Proton Soup]

yeah, this has Brady Bill written all over it, doesn't it?

 

[Pengwuino]

Closest target? Come on, Pengwuino, don't be absurd. He didn't go after the closest target, that would have been the person who drove him there. The police say they don't think he transported himself. The next closest targets would have been the people between him and the congresswoman.

Good lord, I didn't mean LITERALLY the closest person. The closest person who was a high profile target. This would be in contrast to him driving 1000 miles to try to assassinate a governor or the president. The guy obviously hated the entire government, he hated his congressional district, so he just hit close.

I'm sure he wasn't going to end his politically charged mental snap by shooting his neighbor and their dog.

 

[russ_watters]

I think you mean to say that Fox was pushing that bogus information. When Nismar posted that I almost objected as the police hadn't even released his name yet.

Always got to be about Fox and Palin, huh?

 

[Mathnomalous]

Always got to be about Fox and Palin, huh?

No, it is not always Fox and Palin; the alleged shooter seems to suffer from mental problems and he was probably bound to "go off" sooner or later. But, all that is irrelevant at this point. All the public will see is the 2+ years of incendiary rhetoric by Fox & Co.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Good lord, I didn't mean LITERALLY the closest person. The closest person who was a high profile target.

In other words, the closest person on the map.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Always got to be about Fox and Palin, huh?

I don't know about Fox, but Palin is in this up to her eyeballs (politically, not legally). The prosecutor has to look for a motive and she is sticking out like a sore thumb.

 

[nismaratwork]

No, it is not always Fox and Palin; the alleged shooter seems to suffer from mental problems and he was probably bound to "go off" sooner or later. But, all that is irrelevant at this point. All the public will see is the 2+ years of incendiary rhetoric by Fox & Co.

Which MAY be unfair, but was definitely predictable. Maybe a better reason would be to ask why even Boehner seemed to implicate the political climate when I think we all agree there is no PROOF of that. I'm sure it was a matter of political self-defense, but again, maybe we should wonder why Sarah Palin and the rest of the hyperbole club are backing up hard and fast. The perception that the rhetoric could be even the straw that meant this guy shot a woman, child, judge, and many more instead of just himself or (unfairly) a different group of people is out there, and unlikely to go away.

Having read what he wrote, while the cause is unclear, he is obviously delusional and engaged in grandiose fantasies. His rejection from the military, his age, his gender (sorry fellow guys), his obsession with control... it's not a fait accomplit that he was going to be violent. I asked earlier and nobody answered... other than himself, who deserved to be on the business end of this guy's delusions? Not Giffords, but not a bunch of people at a Safeway, or elsewhere either.

Could this particular nut have been, well... radicalized to be a violent nut by the political climate? If he has a codified mental illness, I'll listen to that argument, but he doesn't seem mentally ill in that sense. To me, he seems like most non-suicidal, "mission-based" spree killers. I think he expected to be a hero at the end of this, not dead, and not in custody, which sounds insane, but can also just be absurdly arrogant.

Without more information, the cause of his delusions and other distortions evident in his writing can't be explained... and as much as we'd like for personal or political reasons... we're going to have to wait for answers if were lucky enough to get them. It's one thing to speculate, but to know WHY something happened like this so quickly... even if the guy says that Palin made him do it... no.

Should I blame Jody Foster for John Lennon's death? No. Should I blame a KKK rally followed by a racially motivated killing in the area? I will, oh yeah. Is life usually so clear-cut, especially when people have a mental illness or are generally disturbed? No. Unless this is a rare case, his motives will be as tangled as his mind when he wrote that madness about control and the like.

 

[nismaratwork]

Always got to be about Fox and Palin, huh?

Can you PLEASE at least pretend that you give a **** about something other than your eternal and pointless fight with Ivan, and his with you? You guys have a whole site to make private areas to abuse each other in... do the rest of us always have to be in the crossfire?

I realize that you feel the need to balance Ivan's ideology, but where he at least comes across as caring, you just seem intent on making a point. Maybe this isn't the place to do that. It's one thing to show a map with rifle-scope crosshairs, targeting members of congress, and another to just make a derisive comment. You're a moderator... RAISE the bar! If you think Ivan is misrepresenting matters, an ironic quip here isn't the way, but a fair challenge makes sense.

Why are two of the brighter people on this site constantly at each others throats?!

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't know about Fox, but Palin is in this up to her eyeballs (politically, not legally). The prosecutor has to look for a motive and she is sticking out like a sore thumb.

She's fun target, and that map is a visceral image, but I think her problems are going to be a shift in rhetoric that she is unable to keep pace with. She's a one-note goat in a world where you need to be able to turn on dime.

As for legal or personal responsibility, I don't like the woman, but nothing she's said strikes me as being exhortation to mass murder. If this had been some "sic semper tyrannis" type, or a single shot from a rifle I might wonder, but he went on to kill a child, a judge, and shoot the crowd. CLEARLY his murderous anger or illness was NOT limited to politics in reality, only in his mind if at all.

Next we'll discover it was the video games that did it... ugh... no... it was a guy and a gun.

 

[drankin]

Why are two of the brighter people on this site constantly at each others throats?!

It's why we are here. I love these guys. Both of them make very intelligent yet biased posts that I will enjoy for years! I agree with and disagree with them regularly! How dare you point out the elephant in the room!

 

[nismaratwork]

It's why we are here. I love these guys. Both of them make very intelligent yet biased posts that I will enjoy for years! I agree with and disagree with them regularly! How dare you point out the elephant in the room!

It's true

 

[D H]

Why are two of the brighter people on this site constantly at each others throats?!

They reflect the incredibly wide and incredibly nasty gulf that has split this nation in the last 10 to 20 years. One way to look at it: Given that two of the brighter people at this site have been drawn into the nastiness, what are the odds of somebody who eschews wearing his tinfoil hat in public getting drawn completely into the nastiness and doing something extremely nasty?

The gulf has grown very wide indeed, with more or less equal and rather sizable fractions of Democrats and Republicans advocating the tinfoil hat idea that the last/current President was/is illegitimate and was/is hellbent on destroying the country.

As for the root cause of this craziness, I will offer a rather different target than Palin & the Tea Party, or any other group: The internet. In addition to more restrictive gun laws potentially being in the offing, I will not be surprised if the 'net comes under attack.

 

[turbo]

Not being dumb doesn't imply smart. It was just an ad. No one makes a big deal out of anything until something happens, which means it is just knee-jerk reactionary complaints. There have been ads like this for decades and no one complained because no sane person is going to take an ad and use it as a call to arms to go kill someone in real life. A crazy person doesn't need an ad, however.

Remember, Palin added to this crap with "Don't retreat - reload." Do we forget so soon?

I have seen her shoot a rifle on TV (photo-op). She has no familiarity nor comfort with firearms. Her rhetoric is just that.

BTW, if Sarah Palin was holding a pistol, I wouldn't want to be in the same state as her.

 

[cobalt124]

My gut reaction to this is that Sarah Palins attitude (and her ilk), and the whole gun culture thing does cause all this, but you can't blame a single event (a map with democrat targets on it) for the killing spree by someone who is mentally ill, or who is just determined to do so. I remember The Catcher in the Rye being blamed for John Lennons death and the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, which emphasises how ridiculous the assertion is. I can't help feeling though that the gun culture thing does push the aforementioned people in that direction, reinforces the justification in their eyes, and posibly helps them choose a target to project their issues onto, but ultimately the choice to go on a spree is the perpetrators, and theirs alone.

Think it's being said before but no harm repeating - Mathamateur, watch out for shock kicking in, hope you are well.

 

[nismaratwork]

They reflect the incredibly wide and incredibly nasty gulf that has split this nation in the last 10 to 20 years. One way to look at it: Given that two of the brighter people at this site have been drawn into the nastiness, what are the odds of somebody who eschews wearing his tinfoil hat in public getting drawn completely into the nastiness and doing something extremely nasty?

The gulf has grown very wide indeed, with more or less equal and rather sizable fractions of Democrats and Republicans advocating the tinfoil hat idea that the last/current President was/is illegitimate and was/is hellbent on destroying the country.

As for the root cause of this craziness, I will offer a rather different target than Palin & the Tea Party, or any other group: The internet. In addition to more restrictive gun laws potentially being in the offing, I will not be surprised if the 'net comes under attack.

Interesting... I have to think about what you've said, with the exception that I completely agree with your last statement. If it isn't a person or group, it must be the media, or videogames, or the internet... you know, whatever is relatively new and least studied in terms of social impact of this kind.

 

[arildno]

Well, I can tell you one thing, if this "ad" was run in Norway (where arildno live) the career of that Norwegian politician would be over, for life, period. He/She would probably go thru a lawsuit for slander/insult/illegal threat, or something like that.

Therefore I can’t understand why our friend arildno pretends this is "okay"... because it isn’t.

Because Sarah Palin is not a Norwegian politician, but an American.

And, much of her voter base can be equated with the type of government-suspicious, rugged cowboy mentality that perhaps the state Texas is emblematic of (even though she herself is from Alaska). Trigger-happy is also a common label on this particular American sub-mentality.

Thus, taking this into account, that target map is a jocular, somewhat ironical form of self-representation of the "typical" Palin-voter.

I don't think a single American really sees this very differently, if they are honest with themselves.

They MAY make public brouhaha over this, and CHOOSE to be offended, and insinuate that Palin and her ilk wants to kill them, but that would really prove where political malevolence is to be found in this particular political fighting.But, you are right, it would be politically suicidal in Norway to make such an "ad".
Unless you happen to be a frank, down-to-earth, rather coarse guy from Trøndelag, that is (the region around Trondheim)..
Then, you might actually gain a certain respect...

 

[Jack21222]

Because Sarah Palin is not a Norwegian politician, but an American.

And, much of her voter base can be equated with the type of government-suspicious, rugged cowboy mentality that perhaps the state Texas is emblematic of (even though she herself is from Alaska).

Thus, taking this into account, that target map is a jocular, somewhat ironical form of self-representation of the "typical" Palin-voter.

I don't think a single American really sees this very differently, if they are honest with themselves.

They MAY make public brouhaha over this, and CHOOSE to be offended, and insinuate that Palin and her ilk wants to kill them, but that would really prove where political malevolence is to be found in this particular political fighting.


But, you are right, it would be politically suicidal in Norway to make such an "ad".
Unless you happen to be a frank, down-to-earth, rather coarse guy from Trøndelag, that is (the region around Trondheim)..
Then, you might actually gain a certain respect...

Are you basing all of that on the stereotypes that Norwegians have of Americans?

I remember when that map first came out, combined with Palin's rhetoric of "don't retreat, reload," there were many that called for her to retract all of that, because that sort of rhetoric is dangerous and sets the wrong tone. There were people at these tea party rallies holding signs like "it's time to water the tree of liberty," referencing he Jefferson quote that ends in "with the blood of tyrants."

I can't speak for the rest of Americans, but I found nothing jocular about that map then or now.

 

[arildno]

Are you basing all of that on the stereotypes that Norwegians have of Americans?

I remember when that map first came out, combined with Palin's rhetoric of "don't retreat, reload," there were many that called for her to retract all of that, because that sort of rhetoric is dangerous and sets the wrong tone. There were people at these tea party rallies holding signs like "it's time to water the tree of liberty," referencing he Jefferson quote that ends in "with the blood of tyrants."

I can't speak for the rest of Americans, but I found nothing jocular about that map then or now.

No.

I'm basing it on a very common stereotype Americans in general have of...Texans, and other hillbilly citizens of your country.

THAT stereotype is the basis for the particular ad, and you know it.

 

[nismaratwork]

Are you basing all of that on the stereotypes that Norwegians have of Americans?

I remember when that map first came out, combined with Palin's rhetoric of "don't retreat, reload," there were many that called for her to retract all of that, because that sort of rhetoric is dangerous and sets the wrong tone. There were people at these tea party rallies holding signs like "it's time to water the tree of liberty," referencing he Jefferson quote that ends in "with the blood of tyrants."

I can't speak for the rest of Americans, but I found nothing jocular about that map then or now.

No kidding; the reaction I remember was something between annoyance and maybe a sliver of fear. I'm sorry arildno, but there's a REASON we're all so fascinated by Palin; she's like a stereotype of America, with bangs. She's not even REALLY that stereotype, it's just marketing! A guy like Ted Nugent is... weird... and probably VERY American, but if I'm in his company I wouldn't worry that he knows how to use a gun or not. Sarah Palin TALKS about these things, but has none of the mettle to back it up, and none of the experience to temper her approach.

People may think that the USA is just the wild west with a dash of Woo and Tarantino directing. There is an INCREDIBLY vocal minority which take gun rights to this religious and terrified extreme. As has been pointed out to me, and backed with fairly accurate statistics, we're a really gun-happy people, and it may be that the influx of those guns into the Mexican narco-conflict, we'll have a reference point for a society in chaos before, and after that influx.

Part of being a responsible citizen in a society that owns guns is also NOT to make light of them; they're tools for killing animals (people included) and has no other function or reasonable use. The combination of a lack of education, this religious 'my faith is my brain' movement, and other factors with guns in the mix... and yeah, it can be ugly. I still feel safer walking down the streets of Detroit at midnight, unarmed and wearing a gold watch, than I ever will walking the streets of Manila, Moscow, Bogota, ANYWHERE in Mexico right now, and many more as the saying goes.

A society with even the level of gun violence we experience is still not by definition a disorganized society, and it's chaos and the fear of random and un-punished/prevented crime that really undermines a culture. In that sense, it may be the infusion of fear in the last few decades, and not the guns which are most to blame. I can't think of any group of people who live in such comfort and safety, who have an immense police force and military, and still feel the need to be so heavily armed.

I enjoy target shooting with a couple of pistols and a rifle, but things have gotten weirdly fetishistic for some. Finally, the image that came to mind when I heard this is that of the guy at a tea-party rally with an AR-15, loaded, slung on his back. Yes, he has the legal right, but the total lack of common sense is startling. When you add images like that to our religious crazies, political crazies, and the rhetoric of the NRA... I'm not shocked that arildno thinks we'd find crosshairs on people jocular. I'm not saying we should be concerned about our image, but the reasonable conclusions people are drawing based on our behaviour and rhetoric.

 

[nismaratwork]

No.

I'm basing it on a very common stereotype Americans in general have of...Texans, and other hillbilly citizens of your country.

THAT stereotype is the basis for the particular ad, and you know it.

This is purely for accuracy's sake:


Hick/Redneck is what you're thinking of. A 'Hillbilly' is actually a completely different stereotype that's based along the Appalachian region and not the American Southwest. A hillbilly might shoot you with rock salt to get off his land because the moonshine, 'done made him all crazy,' but they are defined by a solitary lifestyle and their origins.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

It's one thing to say after the tragedy that the map was jocular but no longer is. It's another to say before the tragedy that the map is jocular but won't be in the future. Loughner is not the first loner. Palin should have seen this coming.

 

[arildno]

To expand upon this:

I consider that ad to be emblematic of a particular type of political strategy, that is not unknown among heavily stereotyped groups (note, being "stereotyped" is not the same as being "oppressed"):

Namely a strategy of slamming the stereotype into the face of the stereotyper ad absurdum.

Like:
"You want to see me as a stereotype? Well, I'll give you "stereotype" so much you will rue ever to have stereotyped me in that way!".

A combative, confrontational rhetoric that challenges the stereotype by drawing it into ad absurdum.
It might easily backfire, but precisely because the risk of back-firing, the person espousing this strategy must be granted recognition of a certain level of political "courage".

I don't think such strategies as necessarily particularly dumb or offensive, no. Insensitive&provocative? Yes, so what?

The strategy is perhaps best known from how some groups espousing rights for homosexuals have adopted a queening strategy, i.e, gays who adopt a posture so absurdly feminine&high-pitched that it seems to live up to every single aspect of the traditional stereotype, thereby, in a way, emptying it of threatening content, by making that content explicit, rather than remaining threatening within the subconsciouslevel.

 

[arildno]

This is purely for accuracy's sake:


Hick/Redneck is what you're thinking of. A 'Hillbilly' is actually a completely different stereotype that's based along the Appalachian region and not the American Southwest. A hillbilly might shoot you with rock salt to get off his land because the moonshine, 'done made him all crazy,' but they are defined by a solitary lifestyle and their origins.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[arildno]

BTW, I have no sympathy about Palin and her crowd.