News Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[arildno]

I did, at the same I was shaking my fist and shouting, "EVOOOOOO!". I need to be less verbose...
He clearly had it in for her, but was it proximity because of the district, or because of some other element of her, including gender? He MAY have intentionally gunned down a 9 year old girl... that's some serious rage and confusion; if it was unintentional, his lack of remorse is telling.


Arildno: Until we know more about his parents, it's hard to know, but his pathology seems more consistent with so much separation from others that I doubt his parents had a chance. Of course, they could be horrible people, or the greatest people on earth, who happened to mix their genes badly.

Even the dragons love their ugly chicks.
So, I'd feel sorry for them, even if they are horrid people (the mother gets generally good grades among the family's neighbours)

 

[Evo]

He clearly had it in for her, but was it proximity because of the district

In another article i read that he was upset at her also because she was for more lenient immigration laws and he was against immigrants, he felt they were bringing the area down academically. Don't ask to me to back through 100 articles to find this, take that tidbit or leave it until I stumble back upon it. Also, proximity was a big thing, he lived a few miles away.

Arildno: Until we know more about his parents, it's hard to know, but his pathology seems more consistent with so much separation from others that I doubt his parents had a chance. Of course, they could be horrible people, or the greatest people on earth, who happened to mix their genes badly.

I've also read that the family was avoided by neighbors, they rode old souped up cars they worked on up and down the streets and their yard was unkept. As one neighbor said "when we went door to door to sell girlscout cookies we never went to *that* house. Sounds more like misfits than bad people, but who knows?

 

[D H]

Also, proximity was a big thing, he lived a few miles away.

A very big thing. Opportunity coupled with the fact that this woman that he despised was invading his home turf.

 

[WhoWee]

I think this will explain better.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_gunman_11

(Quote from Evo's link)

"The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around. The crew smoked marijuana everyday, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.

Mistrust of government was his defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world."

This sounds like a very paranoid person - pot probably didn't help him grasp reality.

Not that any of this makes sense, and given the information he was angry at her, I find it difficult to understand why he attacked anyone except Rep. Giffords?

IMO - my instincts tell me he used her as an excuse to attack the society that he clearly did not fit into - it was the validating point (in his twisted mind) for a final act of desperation.

 

[mugaliens]

Holy cow! 300+ posts in less than 48 hours! That's more than 6 posts per hour.

I think this set a new PF record!

 

[edward]

Here is more Local information on Loughner. He had contact with Pima Community College police 5 times. He was expelled from the college in September.

He was told that he must obtain a mental health evauation that stated that he was not a danger to anyone befor he could return He never went back to the School.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7230682n&tag=related;photovideo

When the College Administration mentions police I believe that it was Campus police and not the Tucson Police Department.

http://www.azbiz.com/articles/2011/01/08/news/breaking_news/doc4d29463932228218107137.txt

More here:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...hner-gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting.html

 

[nismaratwork]

Even the dragons love their ugly chicks.
So, I'd feel sorry for them, even if they are horrid people (the mother gets generally good grades among the family's neighbours)

It's sad, but true, and as I said I really doubt that their parenting had much to do with this. In essence I see the portrait of someone who as you and others have said, has been obviously and profoundly mentally ill for YEARS.


Evo: If this is, as I conjecture, schizophrenia, then first order relatives can be expected to exhibit as-yet odd behavioral traits associated with schizophreniform disorders. If not, well... as you say, they could be misfits, it could be an abusive father, or none of the above.

Of course, it may be that neighbors are vilifying them now, or that they're wonderful people who were driven to distraction with the struggle to nurture a child who, as arildno says, fell apart over time.

edward: Had to get an eval... well... that's fairly clear. He's in the perfect age-range for the emergence of schizophrenia... which, if true, would make this even more sad. Not Palin, not parents, not videogames or the internet... just a kid who's mind fell apart, and the man he became.

 

[mugaliens]

This sounds like a very paranoid person - pot probably didn't help him grasp reality.

Not that any of this makes sense, and given the information he was angry at her, I find it difficult to understand why he attacked anyone except Rep. Giffords?

IMO - my instincts tell me he used her as an excuse to attack the society that he clearly did not fit into - it was the validating point (in his twisted mind) for a final act of desperation.

I don't trust our government, and I carry a firearm pretty much everywhere I go. However, this kid's actions are reprehensible. Approximately 4 million other U.S. 22-year olds aren't gunning down members of Congress, so there's definitely something wrong with this fellow.

My instincts tell me you're right, WhoWee. Congresswoman Giffords was an unfortunate target of opportunity for this perp.

I find it interesting that he had tried to cut in line, unarmed, but was rebuffed by another person waiting in line. Only then did he loose it, retrieve his gun from his vehicle, and return to commit this heinous crime.

Sounds to me like it was a crime of passion. I recently read that in the U.S. politics are about 30% more closely held (i.e. hotly contested) than religion. Regardless, I can't tell you how many times I've been stirred into rage by one issue or another. That doesn't mean I blow my stack, pick up a gun, and start blazing away, however. More than 99% of all humans have a normally-developed portion of our brains which keeps us from doing harm to others unless it's absolutely necessary for self-preservation. The only reason I routinely carry a firearm is because that statistic is less than 100%, and on one occasion, more than 20 years ago, it saved my life.

As for this kid, I feel sorry that he just royally flushed his life down the drain, and more sorry for the friends and family members of those whom he harmed. Where were his parents during his upbringing? I have a ten-year-old son with whom I, limited by divorce decree to just 12% of his life, attempt to steer him in the right direction. Quite frankly, and according to him, I think I'm having more a positive effect on his life than his 88% mother!

Regardless, it's a sad state of affairs, period. I really wonder whether his parents are wondering where they went wrong, or are merely writing him off.

I sincerely hope the powers that be recognize this has nothing to do with the availability of a firearm. In fact, I hope and pray everyone with more than two cents worth of brains would recognize that had I or any of the other 10% of our population who carries a firearm on a regular basis been there, the kid would not have managed to get off more than two shots.

I thank God for the two people who tackled him to the ground. Brave souls, they were, and they earned a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Gold_Medal" .

I'm forwarding a recommendation to that effect to my Congressman. If you concur, https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml". Thank you.

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't trust our government, and I carry a firearm pretty much everywhere I go. However, this kid's actions are reprehensible. Approximately 4 million other U.S. 22-year olds aren't gunning down members of Congress, so there's definitely something wrong with this fellow.

My instincts tell me you're right, WhoWee. Congresswoman Giffords was an unfortunate target of opportunity for this perp.

I find it interesting that he had tried to cut in line, unarmed, but was rebuffed by another person waiting in line. Only then did he loose it, retrieve his gun from his vehicle, and return to commit this heinous crime.

Sounds to me like it was a crime of passion. I recently read that in the U.S. politics are about 30% more closely held (i.e. hotly contested) than religion. Regardless, I can't tell you how many times I've been stirred into rage by one issue or another. That doesn't mean I blow my stack, pick up a gun, and start blazing away, however. More than 99% of all humans have a normally-developed portion of our brains which keeps us from doing harm to others unless it's absolutely necessary for self-preservation. The only reason I routinely carry a firearm is because that statistic is less than 100%, and on one occasion, more than 20 years ago, it saved my life.

As for this kid, I feel sorry that he just royally flushed his life down the drain, and more sorry for the friends and family members of those whom he harmed. It's a sad state of affairs, period.

I sincerely hope the powers that be recognize this has nothing to do with the availability of a firearm. In fact, I hope and pray everyone with more than two cents worth of brains would recognize that had I or any of the other 10% of our population who carries a firearm on a regular basis been there, the kid would not have managed to get off more than two shots.

I thank God for the two people who tackled him to the ground. Brave souls, they were, and they earned a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Gold_Medal" .

I'm forwarding a recommendation to that effect to my Congressman. If you concur, https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml". Thank you.

He's most definitely not in the 99%, and I'll write my congressperson. I can say that it's the type of thing that I feel strongly about, but I can see the merit in the award for those two.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I find it interesting that he had tried to cut in line, unarmed, but was rebuffed by another person waiting in line. Only then did he loose it, retrieve his gun from his vehicle, and return to commit this heinous crime.

Sounds like the kid in Omaha that shot the principle over a small suspension. A massive overreaction to the final falling straw, but it was always a culmination of life long events.

No doubt this is tragic, but let's not lose focus that countless people all over the country/world are being murdered every day. Why does it take a congresswomen to wake people up?

 

[nismaratwork]

Sounds like the kid in Omaha that shot the principle over a small suspension. A massive overreaction to the final falling straw, but it was always a culmination of life long events.

No doubt this is tragic, but let's not lose focus that countless people all over the country/world are being murdered every day. Why does it take a congresswomen to wake people up?

It takes a congresswoman because she's pretty, her husband is an astronaut, and it's a built-in media sensation. Oh... and now other members of congress are wetting themselves, which tends to be a very public process.

We might as well ask why only little white girls are kidnapped, and no little black or Hispanic girls! *sigh* They're not, it's just the story that's sold. I would add that given his apparent obsession with this woman, paranoia, recent defeat at college, move home, and in November the purchase of this gun... I think this wasn't an accident.

mugalians: How did he retrieve his gun from a vehicle? He arrived in a cab. He walked to a staffer, asked to see the congresswoman (saw the staffer talk about this on the scene on CNN), was told to go to the back of the line, he returned "moments later" and began shooting.

 

[WhoWee]

mugalians: How did he retrieve his gun from a vehicle? He arrived in a cab. He walked to a staffer, asked to see the congresswoman (saw the staffer talk about this on the scene on CNN), was told to go to the back of the line, he returned "moments later" and began shooting.

Has there been any mention of security cameras in the parking lot?

 

[Evo]

I find it interesting that he had tried to cut in line, unarmed, but was rebuffed by another person waiting in line. Only then did he loose it, retrieve his gun from his vehicle, and return to commit this heinous crime.

Can you post the link to this story? I can't find it. He was driven by taxi, he didn't have a vehicle. I read that the driver went into the store to get change for a $20 and that was why he was initially thought to be involved.

Thanks.

 

[edward]

Can you post the link to this story? I can't find it. He was driven by taxi, he didn't have a vehicle. I read that the driver went into the store to get change for a $20 and that was why he was initially thought to be involved.

Thanks.

There will not be a credible link to the story because it didn't happen that way. Loughner took a cab to the scene. The cab driver was the person of interest who was later cleared.

A staffer asked Loughner to please wait because there were people in front of him. He didn't come to the gathering with a Glock handgun and at least three high capacity clips just to chat.

 

[edward]

As if it couldn't be any worse. The Westboro Baptist Church is coming to Picket the funerals.

This could get really nasty.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...urch-group-plans-to-picket-tucston-funerals/1

 

[Evo]

As if it couldn't be any worse. The Westboro Baptist Church is coming to Picket the funerals.

This could get really nasty.

Fred W. Phelps, leader of the anti-gay Westboro Baptist Church that regularly pickets the funerals of troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, is praising the killings in Tucson and says his group will picket the funerals.


A federal appeals court last year ruled that picketing by the church congregation at funerals is free speech protected by the Constitution. The issue is now before the Supreme Court.

Phelps, in a video on his group's web site, thanks God for the "marvelous work in Tucson," which he says is part of God's vengeance on America. He says his church prays for "more shooters ... more dead."

I am just sickened by what this country has turned into.

 

[nismaratwork]

As if it couldn't be any worse. The Westboro Baptist Church is coming to Picket the funerals.

This could get really nasty.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...urch-group-plans-to-picket-tucston-funerals/1

That's... genuinely offensive. What the hell is wrong with people?! They think that their god, this supposed god of love, mercy and infinite forgiveness wants them to torment the bereaved?! I'm glad we have the freedom to express ourselves, not only for its own sake, but so that people like this can openly declare that they're insane.

WhoWee: There hasn't been any that I've heard of, but given that the FBI is in charge of this, and they have their suspect in custody... it could be a while before we know. I just hope they're not released... this little **** would be thrilled to get the publicity.

 

[nismaratwork]

I am just sickened by what this country has turned into.

Wow... are they positive that they're not satanists? Within the framework of christianity, praying for murder seems... pretty evil.

More importantly, why are the nuts always the ones who die of old age? We keep Cheney, but Carlin goes... we keep O'Reilly and lose Tiller... you ge the idea.

 

[WhoWee]

WhoWee: There hasn't been any that I've heard of, but given that the FBI is in charge of this, and they have their suspect in custody... it could be a while before we know. I just hope they're not released... this little **** would be thrilled to get the publicity.

I can't imagine the FBI EVER releasing a video - just wondering if there were cameras observed on the building. My local WalMart has about a dozen in clear view.

 

[Proton Soup]

Wow... are they positive that they're not satanists? Within the framework of christianity, praying for murder seems... pretty evil.

More importantly, why are the nuts always the ones who die of old age? We keep Cheney, but Carlin goes... we keep O'Reilly and lose Tiller... you ge the idea.

it's not just them. it's every other organization that will be exploiting this tragedy for their own interests. we're a nation of Westboros.

 

[WhoWee]

Wow... are they positive that they're not satanists? Within the framework of christianity, praying for murder seems... pretty evil.

They are clearly not Christian - regardless of what their business cards or tax filings claim.

 

[Newai]

They just want attention. They've been looking for the most egregious way to offend people so they can get their message out, and they found it with funeral protesting. If people really want to stop them, they should ignore them and refuse to acknowledge they even exist.

I won't even say their name.

 

[lisab]

They just want attention. They've been looking for the most egregious way to offend people so they can get their message out, and they found it with funeral protesting. If people really want to stop them, they should ignore them and refuse to acknowledge they even exist.

I won't even say their name.

I agree. The media should just leave them alone, it's not news anymore.

 

[nismaratwork]

They are clearly not Christian - regardless of what their business cards or tax filings claim.

No argument here, but I was worried about some unscrupulous *** along the way selling copies of the tapes, not the FBI. I don't believe the FBI has ever shared evidence it didn't need to, and frankly... good... federal or not, cops should play it close to the vest unless forced.

Proton Soup: I think protesting a funeral is especially unusual, which is why it strikes me as especially despicable. That said, you're right that people systematically using this for gun control, gun rights, media, no media... whatever... the moment loughner's writing became public the justification for that dialogue died. The thing is, our political environment IS terrible, and if this is used as a bludgeon to knock sense into people... well, right or wrong, I can understand the desire for that outcome.

Of course when I go to hell, I know what the road will be paved with!

Newai: ...Or we could dart them like bears run amok and release them into the wilderness where they belong. (THAT IS A JOKE MENTORS)

 

[NeoDevin]

They are clearly not Christian - regardless of what their business cards or tax filings claim.

The old "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman" " fallacy, haven't seen that in a while.

 

[arildno]

While we can all agree that Loughner's acts were reprehensible (although I will hesitate to call this mental disaster area himself as reprehensible), and that Westboro Church is just sickening, the following is truly ghastly:

Hillary Clinton has just equated the Giffords shooting with the 9/11 act.

Besides being totally wrong on the underlying sociology/psychology of these acts (and hence, worse than useless as basis for political analysis), it is a truly vile politicizing of a tragedy cause by a lone nutcase:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8250809/Hillary-Clinton-compares-Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-to-911-attacks.html

Shame on Mrs. Clinton, this is too low.

 

[nismaratwork]

The old "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman" " fallacy, haven't seen that in a while.

Is there a detailed rulebook which Scotsmen need to follow in order to be considered Scotsman?

When the first commandment of your religion is to not murder, and they're praying EXPLICITLY for murder, I'd say this is like me claiming to be the only true Scotsman... and I'm so far from Scotch that if I were alcoholic I'd have DTs.

 

[mugaliens]

He's most definitely not in the 99%, and I'll write my congressperson. I can say that it's the type of thing that I feel strongly about, but I can see the merit in the award for those two.

Thank you! They deserve it.

A massive overreaction to the final falling straw, but it was always a culmination of life long events.

Bingo, Greg. We're reading about the straw the broke the camel's back.

...let's not lose focus that countless people all over the country/world are being murdered every day. Why does it take a congresswomen to wake people up?

I dunno. I will attest, however, that since the mid-1980s, I've rarely been asleep.

 

[WhoWee]

The old "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman" " fallacy, haven't seen that in a while.

Rule number one is "Thou shall not kill" - any philosophical deviation from that one is a problem. Your fun aside, their views not representative of any mainstream religious philosophy.

 

[mugaliens]

mugalians: How did he retrieve his gun from a vehicle? He arrived in a cab. He walked to a staffer, asked to see the congresswoman (saw the staffer talk about this on the scene on CNN), was told to go to the back of the line, he returned "moments later" and began shooting.

Oh. Just parroting what was in the news. My (and their) bad.

Thanks for setting the record strait.

 

[mugaliens]

Hillary Clinton has just equated the Giffords shooting with the 9/11 act.

Ms. Clinton has just shoved her size 32 shoe into a place where it doesn't belong (or fits).

I sincerely doubt she will ever learn.

 

[AlephZero]

Is there a detailed rulebook which Scotsmen need to follow in order to be considered Scotsman?

Well, there is the rule that says "A true Scots gentleman is somebody who knows how to play the bagpipes, but doesn't"...

When the first commandment of your religion is to not murder, and they're praying EXPLICITLY for murder, I'd say this is like me claiming to be the only true Scotsman... and I'm so far from Scotch that if I were alcoholic I'd have DTs.

No, you haven't understood the basic principle of all religions, which is: it's OK for a group of religious people to do anything they like, provided they all think their god told them to do it. Read any Holy Book for evidence to support that statement. It's unnecessary to give a page reference, just start reading from anywhere you like.

Seriously though, all this hand-wringing about the physical and mental health of those in front of and behind the trigger is beside the point. This story is already as much part of the Great American Historical Myth as George Washington and 9/11. The facts of the matter are pretty much irrelevant, compared with what author Terry Pratchett calls "the element Narrativium".

 

[WhoWee]

While we can all agree that Loughner's acts were reprehensible (although I will hesitate to call this mental disaster area himself as reprehensible), and that Westboro Church is just sickening, the following is truly ghastly:

Hillary Clinton has just equated the Giffords shooting with the 9/11 act.

Besides being totally wrong on the underlying sociology/psychology of these acts (and hence, worse than useless as basis for political analysis), it is a truly vile politicizing of a tragedy cause by a lone nutcase:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8250809/Hillary-Clinton-compares-Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-to-911-attacks.html

Shame on Mrs. Clinton, this is too low.

Anyone know how this was translated into Arabic?

 

[mugaliens]

The hospital [CNN] is reporting that Giffords is still alive and in surgery. People on the scene report that she was shot in the head at point blank.

Ivan, I want to thank you for setting the record straight on such a critical point and in such a timely manner.

Thanks.

 

[NeoDevin]

Is there a detailed rulebook which Scotsmen need to follow in order to be considered Scotsman?

When the first commandment of your religion is to not murder, and they're praying EXPLICITLY for murder, I'd say this is like me claiming to be the only true Scotsman... and I'm so far from Scotch that if I were alcoholic I'd have DTs.

Rule number one is "Thou shall not kill" - any philosophical deviation from that one is a problem.

You are both, of course, correct about "Rule number one". Unfortunately, after that point, you both leave logic behind:

First: "Rule number one" only speaks about killing, not about praying for others to kill.

Second: Given the history of some of the mainstream Christian churches (mentioning specific denominations would be in violation of the rules, but I'm sure you can come up with one or two that have killed a lot of people), not to mention any individual Christians, it's clear (to me) that killing people does not preclude one from being a Christian.

 

[WhoWee]

You are both, of course, correct about "Rule number one". Unfortunately, after that point, you both leave logic behind:

First: "Rule number one" only speaks about killing, not about praying for others to kill.

Second: Given the history of some of the mainstream Christian churches (mentioning specific denominations would be in violation of the rules, but I'm sure you can come up with one or two that have killed a lot of people), not to mention any individual Christians, it's clear (to me) that killing people does not preclude one from being a Christian.

As I said, "your fun aside", praying or wishing that more people be killed by an insane gunman - is not mainstream thinking whatsoever - religious or otherwise.

 

[nismaratwork]

While we can all agree that Loughner's acts were reprehensible (although I will hesitate to call this mental disaster area himself as reprehensible), and that Westboro Church is just sickening, the following is truly ghastly:

Hillary Clinton has just equated the Giffords shooting with the 9/11 act.

Besides being totally wrong on the underlying sociology/psychology of these acts (and hence, worse than useless as basis for political analysis), it is a truly vile politicizing of a tragedy cause by a lone nutcase:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8250809/Hillary-Clinton-compares-Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-to-911-attacks.html

Shame on Mrs. Clinton, this is too low.

Yeah, suddenly we're comparing this to the assassination in Pakistan (her reference), and the psychology of a complete basket case with organized and ideologically driven mass-murderers. It's grotesque, but it's her job, and what should anyone expect from politicians?... What's the excuse of the picketers... they don't have a job and claim to have souls...

By the way, I really respect that you point out that if this man is as mentally ill as he appears, there should be a balance between recognizing that he's dangerous, and making him a villain. If he's not that ill, or it's drugs... ***k him.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, there is the rule that says "A true Scots gentleman is somebody who knows how to play the bagpipes, but doesn't"...

It's very compelling, I know, but it still doesn't apply.

No, you haven't understood the basic principle of all religions, which is: it's OK for a group of religious people to do anything they like, provided they all think their god told them to do it. Read any Holy Book for evidence to support that statement. It's unnecessary to give a page reference, just start reading from anywhere you like.

You're preaching to the choir... get it? Preaching? CHOIR?! HA... but seriously folks, that's the practice of religion, the principle of politics, and the reality of life. By the same token, it doesn't really change anything I've said, or asked. I enjoyed what you said however, and have often felt similarly annoyed by the whole matter.

Seriously though, all this hand-wringing about the physical and mental health of those in front of and behind the trigger is beside the point. This story is already as much part of the Great American Historical Myth as George Washington and 9/11. The facts of the matter are pretty much irrelevant, compared with what author Terry Pratchett calls "the element Narrativium".

Yes, but that's not an excuse for us to feed that narrative, believe the story, or teach it. If you believe in submission to the inevitable, why advice us in science?... we're all going to be dust, and that dust will decay. I want to understand the mental and physical states because... that's what I try to do... understand physical and mental states. The fact that an event becomes forced into the narrative, doesn't mean that everyone has to buy it. For instance, I read L. Ron Hubbard's books, and immediately concluded that he was a crook and a ****wit! Lo, the narrative existeth, but with no lord to guide me I just bloody ignore it... that's why I'm having this discussion on PF, and nowhere else on or offline.

 

[nismaratwork]

You are both, of course, correct about "Rule number one". Unfortunately, after that point, you both leave logic behind:

First: "Rule number one" only speaks about killing, not about praying for others to kill.

Second: Given the history of some of the mainstream Christian churches (mentioning specific denominations would be in violation of the rules, but I'm sure you can come up with one or two that have killed a lot of people), not to mention any individual Christians, it's clear (to me) that killing people does not preclude one from being a Christian.

Christians who killed a bunch of people... hmmm... OH OH! "What is, The Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic church?!" Well Alec?

Anyway... if you believe that your prayers have the power to change the world, then their mindset is that of a killer. They rejoiced in the death of what they perceived as an enemy... wait... this skeptical atheist has: something relevant... religiously. Specifically a Rabbinic Midrash regarding celebrating the death, even of a hated enemy, never mind praying for murder.

...in Exodus 14:20 to teach that when the Egyptians were drowning in the sea, the ministering angels wanted to sing a song of rejoicing, as Isaiah 6:3 associates the words zeh el zeh with angelic singing. But God rebuked them: “The work of my hands is being drowned in the sea, and you want to sing songs?”

Just a thought from the religion that forms the basis of Christianity. Essential to the understanding of other people is an understanding of their beliefs, however they may be perverted to ill ends. If you choose to call them all loons or asses, you don't hurt them, just yourself.

 

[WhoWee]

It seems this thread is easily de-railed?

Yes, countries wage war, yet they have laws against killing, likewise wars have been fought in the name of religion - but the religions themselves set rules against killing. Killing innocent people is wrong - not negotiable.

IMO - anyone who seriously wants, wishes, or prays for innocent people to die at the hands of a mad-man should seek professional help - not hide behind any philosophy (real or created in their own mind).

 

[NeoDevin]

IMO - anyone who seriously wants, wishes, or prays for innocent people to die at the hands of a mad-man should seek professional help - not hide behind any philosophy (real or created in their own mind).

Agreed. But that's not what you originally posted:

They are clearly not Christian - regardless of what their business cards or tax filings claim.

Which was plainly an application of the "No true Christian" fallacy.

 

[arildno]

Killing innocent people is wrong - not negotiable.

Except, for example:
If it is necessary in order to protect the lives of a larger amount of innocents than they themselves constitute. Then it may be right to do just that.
Sometimes, this Devil's Dilemma is imposed upon us, and we have to drink an exceedingly bitter draught.

 

[Evo]

WhoWee is right, let's get off the religious tangent please.

 

[nismaratwork]

WhoWee is right, let's get off the religious tangent please.

There are hints, and there are Hints.

That I think, was a big freaking HINT

 

[WhoWee]

Agreed. But that's not what you originally posted:



Which was plainly an application of the "No true Christian" fallacy.

I wasn't trying to get into a debate about religion. I used the business card and tax reference to make the point they had an agenda other than the one their name implied.

 

[WhoWee]

WhoWee is right, let's get off the religious tangent please.

Sorry Evo, you posted while I was typing.

I just saw a mug shot of the shooter. It looks like they roughed him up a bit - but shouldn't be a problem for prosecutor - nothing you wouldn't expect in a case where someone was restrained for several minutes in a parking lot.

 

[nismaratwork]

Sorry Evo, you posted while I was typing.

I just saw a mug shot of the shooter. It looks like they roughed him up a bit - but shouldn't be a problem for prosecutor - nothing you wouldn't expect in a case where someone was restrained for several minutes in a parking lot.

Oh yeah, the look he's sporting there doesn't scream Helter Skelter at all... holy s***! It's a myth that truly crazy people don't look the part (some don't, most do), but he's not exactly leaving a lot of doubts is he?!

edit: The only time I've seen that smile/eyes combo is in people who, on an fMRI, might as well not have a frontal lobe...

 

[nismaratwork]

To quote one of Loughner's teachers, "When I saw [that it was loughner] I was shocked, but not surprised." Trite, but um... hey teach, W T H... maybe share that tidbit with the class a little more stridently than, "get help kid" *boot*.

 

[Evo]

So, it seems the consensus is that the death penalty will be requested. Also, it's not likely that insanity will be allowed as a defense, although a verdict of "guilty but insane" is possible.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_defense;_ylt=An4ejJuSCZPfkbJwEIkEj71H2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTQwamJhazgxBGFzc2V0Ay9zL2FwLzIwMTEwMTEwL2FwX29uX3JlX3VzL3VzX2NvbmdyZXNzd29tYW5fc2hvdF9kZWZlbnNlBGNjb2RlA21wX2VjXzhfMTAEY3BvcwMyBHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDaW5zYW5pdHlkZWZl

 

[turbo]

Mark Brooks is currently on PBS claiming that Sarah Palin, right-wing radio and Fox news have NO responsibility for the assassination attempt. That's disingenuous, at best, IMO. How can we define political civility in this atmosphere?

Can't we dial back the hate a bit?