Resistor to trick 12v transformer

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the challenge of using LED lights with a 12-volt transformer that appears to require a certain load to function properly. Participants explore potential solutions for tricking the transformer into recognizing a higher load, including the use of resistors or other devices. The conversation includes technical details about the transformer and LED specifications, as well as the implications of using incandescent bulbs alongside LEDs.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks how to trick a 12-volt transformer into seeing more load to power LED lights that do not function without an incandescent bulb present.
  • Another suggests looking into motorcycle accessory catalogs for load-adding gadgets that could be applicable.
  • There is a question about the required ohms and amps for the load.
  • Some participants express confusion about whether the LED modules are rated for AC or DC voltage.
  • One participant notes that the transformer outputs low voltage readings when unloaded and higher voltage with an incandescent bulb, suggesting a need for more load.
  • Another participant mentions that electronic transformers may require sufficient load resistance to operate correctly.
  • Discussion includes the possibility of the transformer being a switching mode power supply rather than a conventional transformer.
  • Some participants propose using resistors as a potential solution to maintain load without using incandescent bulbs.
  • There is mention of the transformer being dimmable and questions about its compatibility with dimming controls.
  • One participant suggests that the transformer may not be functioning correctly if it outputs low voltage readings under certain conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on how to address the issue, with no clear consensus on the best approach. Some agree that additional load is necessary, while others question the nature of the transformer and its requirements. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the optimal solution.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the lack of specifications for the LED lights and the potential limitations of measuring equipment, which may affect the understanding of the transformer's output characteristics. There is also uncertainty regarding the exact nature of the transformer and its operational requirements.

Joel2010
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Hi guys, new here. I was wondering if anyone knew of a way to trick a 12 volt transformer into seeing more load. I have these lights http://www.lowes.com/pd_172832-24969-800CBL5N_0_?productId=1207073&Ntt=tiella&Ntk=i_products&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?newSearch=true$Ntt=tiella$y=0$x=0" and it won't light them. If I put back in 1 of the 20 watters it works.
So what I need to know is, would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002KR4HU/?tag=pfamazon01-20
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
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If you check out motorcycle accessory catalogs on-line you will see lots of gadgets to add load to lighting circuits so incandescent bulbs can be replaced with L.E.D. arrays. Perhaps one of those would fit your application.
 
Any idea how many ohms and amps I'd be looking for?
 
Joel2010 said:
Hi guys, new here. I was wondering if anyone knew of a way to trick a 12 volt transformer into seeing more load. I have these lights http://www.lowes.com/pd_172832-24969-800CBL5N_0_?productId=1207073&Ntt=tiella&Ntk=i_products&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?newSearch=true$Ntt=tiella$y=0$x=0" and it won't light them. If I put back in 1 of the 20 watters it works.
So what I need to know is, would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002KR4HU/?tag=pfamazon01-20
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I don't understand what you are asking. Are the LED light modules rated for 12Vrms (AC), or do they expect 12Vdc? You don't "load" the output of a transformer to get the LEDs to turn on...
 
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It doesn't say if they're ac or dc.
What I'm saying is they leds work as long as there is one incandescent bulb (4leds, 1 incandescent) in the line but don't if I take it off so it seems the transformer wants to see a little more load. ?
 
Joel2010 said:
It doesn't say if they're ac or dc.
What I'm saying is they leds work as long as there is one incandescent bulb (4leds, 1 incandescent) in the line but don't if I take it off so it seems the transformer wants to see a little more load. ?

No, that doesn't seem to be what is going on. What is the AC voltage with nothing connected (transformer open circuit voltage)? What is it with just the LED load? And with the added incandescent?

What is the part number of the LED light module? You should be able to find specs on it somewhere.
 
Ok, with nothing it was .1 volt ac, with just leds .2 vac, add one incandescent 6.7 vac.

The only info I have on the leds are in that ebay link. There were no specs with them. Hong Kong!
 
The need to do load-balancing in vehicles is generally related to the function of relays and flashers in lighting circuits, IIR. If you were going to replace a simple switched lamp with LEDs (brake light, tail light, etc) there would be no modification required.
 
Joel2010 said:
Ok, with nothing it was .1 volt ac, with just leds .2 vac, add one incandescent 6.7 vac.

The only info I have on the leds are in that ebay link. There were no specs with them. Hong Kong!

No, not right. The unloaded output from the "12V" transformer should be over 12Vrms. When fully loaded, it should come down to about 12Vrms.

Try checking the voltages on the DC scale. Maybe the transformer has an output rectifier and filter?
 
  • #10
I opened it, it says 12vac 105 watts. Readings are the same. Doesn't make much sense.
 
  • #11
Joel2010 said:
I opened it, it says 12vac 105 watts. Readings are the same. Doesn't make much sense.

Could you maybe shoot a couple pictures and post them? Also, were you able to track down the datasheet for the LED light assemblies?
 
  • #12
If I short it real quick, the leds light up. Is there a safe way to short it all the time with a resistor or capacitor or something?
 
  • #13
Joel2010 said:
If I short it real quick, the leds light up. Is there a safe way to short it all the time with a resistor or capacitor or something?

No, something is not getting hooked up correctly.
 
  • #14
OK, a suggestion... incandescent bulbs don't care about polarity, but LEDs sure do. If the circuit is set up to reverse-bias the LEDs, they won't illuminate. I don't know why replacing one of the incandescents in the circuit will allow LEDs to illuminate, but just a thought.
 
  • #15
berkeman said:
No, something is not getting hooked up correctly.

Here's the whole thing then a closeup of the transformer. I can't find any other info on the leds. There's no numbers on them at all.
 

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  • #16
turbo-1 said:
OK, a suggestion... incandescent bulbs don't care about polarity, but LEDs sure do. If the circuit is set up to reverse-bias the LEDs, they won't illuminate. I don't know why replacing one of the incandescents in the circuit will allow LEDs to illuminate, but just a thought.

I don't get it either but the leds work perfectly as long as there is an incandescent in there.
 
  • #17
It says electronic transformer on the label you posted.

This means it is probably a switching mode power supply, not a conventional transformer. These do need sufficient load resistance to operate.

Are your lamps in series or parallel?
 
  • #18
Studiot said:
It says electronic transformer on the label you posted.

This means it is probably a switching mode power supply, not a conventional transformer. These do need sufficient load resistance to operate.
Good catch!
 
  • #19
Studiot said:
It says electronic transformer on the label you posted.

This means it is probably a switching mode power supply, not a conventional transformer. These do need sufficient load resistance to operate.

Are your lamps in series or parallel?

Parallel so my total for the leds is only 6 watts. They are 1.2 each. The extra 20 watts gets it all going. That's why I'm trying to add a load.
 
  • #20
Guess I could hide an incandescent in the wall lol. Not
 
  • #21
Joel2010 said:
Here's the whole thing then a closeup of the transformer. I can't find any other info on the leds. There's no numbers on them at all.

That looks to be a ballast, not a simple step-down transformer. Where it says "Output Frequency > 20kHz" is a clue.

It may be that your DMM can't measure that high of an AC waveform, and the extra loading just pulls the output frequency down closer to where it can start to see something.

Is it a dimmable ballast? Is there a dimming control somewhere? I tried to get the datasheet for the transformer, but am running out of time right now. If you power that light string with a standard 12Vrms step-down transformer, it should work fine.
 
  • #22
berkeman said:
That looks to be a ballast, not a simple step-down transformer. Where it says "Output Frequency > 20kHz" is a clue.

It may be that your DMM can't measure that high of an AC waveform, and the extra loading just pulls the output frequency down closer to where it can start to see something.

Is it a dimmable ballast? Is there a dimming control somewhere? I tried to get the datasheet for the transformer, but am running out of time right now. If you power that light string with a standard 12Vrms step-down transformer, it should work fine.
It does say it is dimmable and I am using a dimmer which everything works fine with so long as that one incandescent is in there. Would that transformer still allow for the dimmer? Just reply when you get time, no hurry. I appreciate everyone's input.
 
  • #23
That looks to be a ballast, not a simple step-down transformer. Where it says "Output Frequency > 20kHz" is a clue.

Can't see this as ballast.

It says 120v in 12 volts out and the wattage indicates a pretty inefficient conversion.

An incandescent will eventually burn out. You would be better off hiding two parallel 15 watt 15 ohm resistors. Perhaps you could simply attach them in the fitting. They are readily available.
 
  • #24
Joel2010 said:
It does say it is dimmable and I am using a dimmer which everything works fine with so long as that one incandescent is in there. Would that transformer still allow for the dimmer? Just reply when you get time, no hurry. I appreciate everyone's input.

Do you have access to an oscilloscope? On second thought, you'd need to use an isolation transformer before the 120Vrms 60Hz input side, to let you ground part of the output for watching the lighting waveform...
 
  • #25
Studiot said:
Can't see this as ballast.

Not a high-voltage ballast, true. I sure wish I could find the datasheet. There are multiple MDL corporations, and I've only gotten an address for this lighting MDL Corporation, but no website yet. Lots of people sell their stuff, but no datasheets so far on those websites...
 
  • #26
Studiot said:
Can't see this as ballast.

It says 120v in 12 volts out and the wattage indicates a pretty inefficient conversion.

An incandescent will eventually burn out. You would be better off hiding two parallel 15 watt 15 ohm resistors. Perhaps you could simply attach them in the fitting. They are readily available.

Ah, thank you! This is the info I'm looking for. If you think this will work I will definitely try it. Can I ask why 2-15's and not something closer to 105 watts?
 
  • #27
berkeman said:
Do you have access to an oscilloscope? On second thought, you'd need to use an isolation transformer before the 120Vrms 60Hz input side, to let you ground part of the output for watching the lighting waveform...
No I don't, I think you'd be way over my head there anyways. :)
 
  • #28
You said that it works with 20 watt load. You don't want to draw and waste more than necessary.

20 watts at 12 volts works out at 7.2 ohms.

Two 15 ohm resistors in parallel yield 7.5 - close enough. I said 15 watt not 10 watt because they will run cooler and more reliably. Using two resistors also increases reliability.

These are also common or garden standard sizes, readily and cheaply available.

These are only 5W (I am watching these for a different purpose) but something like these would do.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300314832011&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
 
  • #29
Studiot said:
You said that it works with 20 watt load. You don't want to draw and waste more than necessary.

20 watts at 12 volts works out at 7.2 ohms.

Two 15 ohm resistors in parallel yield 7.5 - close enough. I said 15 watt not 10 watt because they will run cooler and more reliably. Using two resistors also increases reliability.

I see. Awesome. I will head to Radio Shack this weekend and grab some and report back. Thanks you guys.
 
  • #30
Joel2010 said:
I see. Awesome. I will head to Radio Shack this weekend and grab some and report back. Thanks you guys.
I wonder whether the load problem was more from the dimmer? Same solution antway. :)