Shorting neutral to Earth confusion

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of shorting the neutral wire to the earth wire in AC electrical systems. Participants explore various scenarios, wiring practices, and safety concerns related to this action, touching on both theoretical and practical aspects of electrical systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that neutral and earth are typically connected at the main power panel, which may influence the outcome of shorting them.
  • One participant suggests that shorting neutral to earth may not cause issues if the wiring is correct and the power source is grounded, but acknowledges that this does not apply to all situations.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for neutral to become live if there is a break in the neutral connection, which could lead to dangerous conditions.
  • Another participant describes how improper wiring, such as swapping neutral and active wires, can create hazards, particularly if the neutral is mistakenly connected to ground.
  • A participant explains the concept of a "Multiply Earthed Neutral" (MEN) system, detailing how it operates and the implications of connecting neutral to earth in such systems.
  • Some participants discuss the terminology differences between "ground" and "earth," suggesting that these terms may lead to confusion in understanding electrical systems.
  • There is a mention of the role of residual current devices (RCDs) in detecting imbalances between neutral and active currents, which could be affected by shorting neutral to earth.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the safety and implications of shorting neutral to earth, with no consensus reached on the potential outcomes or best practices. Some acknowledge the risks while others emphasize proper wiring as a mitigating factor.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying electrical systems across regions, differing practices in wiring, and the potential for miscommunication regarding terminology. The discussion reflects a range of assumptions about electrical safety and practices that may not be universally applicable.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to electrical engineering students, professionals in the electrical field, and individuals seeking to understand the implications of wiring practices in AC systems.

  • #31
nsaspook said:
Benefits: Ungrounded delta can take one leg shorted to hull and still work at full power, with a two leg short down the line the switchboard can disconnect one shorted leg at the generator an still have two phases on-line. Disadvantages? Not many on a warship where having some power could be the difference between life and death. Most of our critical equipment had a 'battle-short' switch because 'it's better to risk having a technician or two killed trying to fix something than to have the whole ship destroyed"
Battle%20Short%20Button.jpg

Battleshort
Thank you for the info. As i understand it wouldn't a Y 3 phase isolated neutral work the same way? One phase short to hull is no problem. If 2 phases short then usually the genset trips though it can reconfigured to isolate one phase.
Or am I just being dense? Lol
 
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  • #32
quigi said:
BTW, there's no ground wire at the remote barn -- it's all old 2 conductor wiring & 2 prong outlets.
Not just old barns but old homes where neutral was ground; as in water pipe. My first encounter with electricity was at about age 5 when getting a drink from the outdoor hose faucet barefooted on a hot summer day.
Funny how pipes can have a high resistance to ground. :oldsurprised: Maybe that was what "sparked" my interest in electrical things.
 
  • #33
Rippetherocker said:
Thank you for the info. As i understand it wouldn't a Y 3 phase isolated neutral work the same way? One phase short to hull is no problem. If 2 phases short then usually the genset trips though it can reconfigured to isolate one phase.
Or am I just being dense? Lol
In an ungrounded delta, each phase floats. So if you ground one leg, all three still work normally. Ground is just referenced to one of the legs when it becomes grounded. The circuits still act normally. At least theoretically. (I'm not sure how wise that would be though.)

In a Y, grounding one leg will place the neutral at a high voltage. Then the currents through the neutral are different (higher?). In addition someone touching the neutral thinking it's safe will be in for a shock. :oldsurprised:
 
  • #34
Jeff Rosenbury said:
In an ungrounded delta, each phase floats. So if you ground one leg, all three still work normally. Ground is just referenced to one of the legs when it becomes grounded. The circuits still act normally. At least theoretically. (I'm not sure how wise that would be though.)

In a Y, grounding one leg will place the neutral at a high voltage. Then the currents through the neutral are different (higher?). In addition someone touching the neutral thinking it's safe will be in for a shock. :oldsurprised:
There is no neutral on ships. And very cool smiley!
 

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