News Should abortion be considered murder?

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The discussion centers on whether abortion should be classified as murder and the role of the federal government in regulating it. Participants express a range of views, with many advocating for pro-choice stances, emphasizing that abortion is a personal decision and should not be dictated by government intervention. Some argue that while they may personally oppose abortion, they believe exceptions should be made in cases of rape or threats to the mother's health. The conversation also touches on the complexities of individual circumstances surrounding unwanted pregnancies, highlighting that opinions often vary based on specific situations. Ultimately, the debate reflects a deep division on the moral and legal implications of abortion, with calls for a more nuanced understanding of the issue.

Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

  • Anti-Abortion

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • Pro-choice

    Votes: 20 55.6%
  • Indifferent

    Votes: 1 2.8%
  • Depends on the situation

    Votes: 8 22.2%

  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .
  • #91
Evo said:
And the prospect of a child that is going to be born can bring despair, fear, ostracization and humiliation, to the point that many women getting pregnant at the wrong time has caused them to take their own lives.

Yes, and a child that has already been born can bring despair and fear to the mother's life. Can we terminate this child?

What I'm getting at is that these issues of care, welfare, adoption, lack of financial reousrces to care for the child... are getting away from the real issue... whether or not the unborn child is alive, has rights etc...
 
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  • #92
learningphysics said:
are getting away from the real issue... whether or not the unborn child is alive, has rights etc...
Which my point is that abortion will continue, legal or illegal, but more harm is done by illegal abortion.

So should we make abortion illegal so that we can all pat ourselves on the back and stick our heads in the sand and pretend that the problem is gone?
 
  • #93
Evo said:
Which my point is that abortion will continue, legal or illegal, but more harm is done by illegal abortion.

So should we make abortion illegal so that we can all pat ourselves on the back and stick our heads in the sand and pretend that the problem is gone?

If the unborn child is a human, and has the rights of a human, then isn't it critical to stop it from happening?

If abortion is illegal, then at least the numbers will go down. It will work as a deterrent at least. No punishment to any crime is perfect. Murder still takes place, rape still takes place, theft still takes place... do we just forget about punishing the criminals because the crimes still happen?

Would you give such a response to any other crime? Child abuse will take place whether or not it is made illegal, but illegal child abuse creates more harm?

I'm not saying abortion is a crime, or that the unborn has the same rights as a human... but IF it does... then we have to treat abortion as any other crime, and do our best to prevent it from happening.

The critical issue is the rights of the unborn child... what these rights are etc...
 
  • #94
learningphysics said:
I'm not saying abortion is a crime, or that the unborn has the same rights as a human... but IF it does... then we have to treat abortion as any other crime, and do our best to prevent it from happening.

The critical issue is the rights of the unborn child... what these rights are etc...
This is where it gets dangerous. Until after the 8th week, it is not a fetus, it is an embryo. Many women will spontaneously abort (miscarry) during this period. When a woman miscarries during this time, no death of an infant is recorded, no death certificate. Can you imagine trying to record every miscarriage into public record?

If we were to claim that an embryo was a fully developed person and had all human rights, we get into a very problamatic situation. If a woman miscarried during this time, does she have to bring in the contents of her toilet bowl, sheets, underwear, etc... so it can be determined (how I wouldn't know) that she was not in some way responsible for it's "death". Will we start throwing women into jail for horseback riding, or mountain biking or improper nutrition? Does she have to give a name to something not visible to the naked eye, get a death certificate and have it buried?

What about someone that doesn't like her and claims the miscarriage was an "intentional" abortion?
 
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  • #95
One set of rules is designed around the integration of a being into society; the other is based on the choice whether or not a child is appropriate at a certain time. Something, a child, that is part of society should not be removed from it when it can contribute and would be physically willing, in the future, to be thankful for its life; this can be turned around, I know, but I can refute that opposite arguements. For example, an aborted child who lives would be thankful for life, but so would the theoretical unborn child who doesn't result because of a failure to abort - the child who would live a happier life.

An unborn child has no logical rights. The embracing of paradoxically moral beliefs has to be done through the acceptance that there is no real altruism. You have no need to care for the unborn child, unless you are expecting it; nevertheless, you should want the best for the mother and the future, theoretical, happier child that may never be born because of a failure to abort.
 
  • #96
I don't think many realize how many spontaneous abortions really do occur in women. I think the rate is 1 in 3? Anyhow, Evo, I have to agree 110% with what you are saying here. It's about a woman's safety, health, life, and rights of her body that are above the unborn child. This is the main factor in why it is legal, more of a practical reason over a moral one. In this instance, one must be practical over being moral. You cannot tell anyone to stop having sex, it's just not going to happen. But you can provide birth control and education to prevent these unwanted pregnancies.

It's a sad fact that it is done, but no matter what it will continue to be done regardless of what morals are cast upon our society. Women usually cannot obtain an abortion after 16 weeks, and some clinics won't go past 12 weeks, which is the time that miscarriage is most likely to happen anyway. It doesn't matter why she is choosing to abort, if she wants it to happen and seeks whatever means, we need to protect her from an unsterile environment and untrained people who do not know how to perform the procedure.
 
  • #97
Evo said:
I'm saying that people need to get off of their respective bandwagons of whether abortion should be legal or illegal since abortion will not stop, only how it is done.

Neither will fraud, murder, or any number of illegal activities.

Rev Prez
 
  • #98
Evo said:
This is where it gets dangerous.

I don't see why. By the time a pregnancy is detected after the third week, and the rate of miscarriage falls off http://www.pregnancyloss.info/statistics.htm . The state can adopt a simple two track system (log a pregnancy, log its end) that sufficiently scales to meet its new obligations for a little less effort than it takes to log a birth and fill out a death certificate.

Can you imagine trying to record every miscarriage into public record?

Yes. Given the overwhelming majority of detected spontoneous abortions will occur under circumstances no more suspicious than the menstrual cycle, the only issue remaining is to track pregnancies. In that case, the objections collapse to only those which fall out of the theory of privacy and balanced interests arrived at in Roe v. Wade.

Besides, granting personhood status to the fetus attaches legal obligations to seek and provide pre-natal care. Is that a bad thing?

Rev Prez
 
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  • #99
Dooga Blackrazor said:
Logical Reasoning in Support of Abortion: Not Just Pro-Choice Arguments

These are arguments in support of a host of other controversial programs, including but not limited to killing born children. So, to avoid blurring a distinction between the fetus and the born you have to deny personhood to the fetus--that brings you right back to what we're talking about.

Rev Prez
 
  • #100
Evo said:
Abortion was legalized in the US because of the high incidence of death, sterility and other serious side affects of illegal abortions.

Really? Where in Roe v. Wade did you find that little gem?

Rev Prez
 
  • #101
Rev Prez said:
Really? Where in Roe v. Wade did you find that little gem?

Rev Prez
That's just the court case, I am talking about the reasons people were pushing to get abortions legalized. I know, I lived through that time.
 
  • #102
Kerrie said:
no, I think what Evo is trying to say is, why aren't the pro-lifers expressing their verbal outrage for child abuse as much as they are expressing their views on abortion? they seem to put a lot more energy on conserving a life yet not about improving the quality of those children already alive and being abused.

Child abuse is universally decried and is already illegal. If abortion had the same status, it is doubtful that many people would be raising a voice against abortion.

Anyway, my point was that we should discuss purely the merits of the arguments put forth, not use ad hominem tactics to question the motivations of our opponents. It shouldn't matter to this thread why opponents of abortion speak out against abortion, oftentimes more loudly than they do against anything else. What is important is whether or not their arguments are compelling and they are correct to postulate that abortion is murder.
 
  • #103
Evo said:
That's just the court case, I am talking about the reasons people were pushing to get abortions legalized. I know, I lived through that time.

Evo is correct that making abortion illegal isn't going to make it go away, it only makes it less safe. For evidence of this, one only need to look at countries where abortion is currently illegal or unavailable; abortions still happen, and at great risk to the women undergoing the procedure.

From:
Finkielman JD, De Feo FD, Heller PG, Afessa B.
The clinical course of patients with septic abortion admitted to an intensive care unit.
Intensive Care Med. 2004 Jun;30(6):1097-102.

Unsafe abortion, abortion characterized by the lack or inadequate skills of health care providers, hazardous techniques, and unsanitary facilities is one of the neglected health care problems in developing countries [1]. Abortion remains a common cause of maternal death in the developing world, and deaths from abortion result primarily from sepsis [1, 2].

Morbidity and mortality from septic abortion are widespread in countries where abortion is illegal or inaccessible [2]. The reported mortality rate from septic abortion has ranged from 0 to 34% [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10]. Complications occur frequently following septic abortion. These complications include peritonitis, hemorrhage requiring transfusion, uterine perforation, renal failure, coagulopathy, liver dysfunction, and lower genitourinary tract injury [5, 6, 10]. In countries where abortion is legal, mortality due to abortion is infrequent, and septic abortion has become a rare condition. In the United States (where abortion is legal), the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention identified nine deaths among 884,273 legally induced abortions reported in 1998 and none died as a result of illegally induced abortion [11]. In a recent study of 74 obstetric patients admitted consecutively to an intensive care unit (ICU) from January 1991 to December 1998, only one had septic abortion [12].

In Argentina, abortion is illegal and the estimated proportion of maternal deaths due to abortion has remained around 30% [1, 13].

References:
1. Division of Reproductive Health (1998) Unsafe abortion. Global and regional estimates of incidence of and mortality due to unsafe abortion, with a listing of available country data (WHO/RHT/MSM/97.16). World Health Organization. Geneva
2. Stubblefield PG, Grimes DA (1994) Septic abortion. N Engl J Med 331:310–314
3. Spina V, Bertelli S, Bartucca B, Bonessio L, Aleandri V (2001) Current
clinical features of septic abortion in Western countries. A series of cases
observed during 1998 at the 1st and 2nd Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology of the University of Rome La Sapienza. Minerva Ginecol 53:351–356 [in Italian]
4. Hawkins DF, Sevitt LH, Fairbrother PF, Tothill AU (1975) Management of
septic chemical abortion with renal failure. Use of a conservative regimen.
N Engl J Med 292:722–725
5. Adewole IF (1992) Trends in postabortal mortality and morbidity in
Ibadan, Nigeria. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 38:115–118
6. Konje JC, Obisesan KA (1991) Septic abortion at University College Hospital, Ibadan, Nigeria. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 36:121–125
7. Bartlett RH, Yahia C (1969) Management of septic chemical abortion with
renal failure. Report of five consecutive cases with five survivors. N Engl J Med
281:747–753
8. Rivlin ME, Hunt JA (1986) Surgical management of diffuse peritonitis
complicating obstetric/gynecologic infections. Obstet Gynecol 67:652–656
9. Cane RD, Rivlin M, Buchanan N (1976) The management of septic
abortion in an intensive care unit. Eur J Intensive Care Med 2:135–138
10. Lanari A, Firmat J, Paz RA, Rodo JE (1973) Septic abortion with acute renal insufficiency. Study of 150 cases. Medicina (B Aires) 33:331–360 [in
Spanish]
11. Elam-Evans LD, Strauss LT, Herndon J, Parker WY, Whitehead S, Berg CJ
(2002) Abortion surveillance–United States, 1999. MMWR Surveill Summ
51:1–9, 11–28
12. Afessa B, Green B, Delke I, Koch K (2001) Systemic inflammatory response syndrome, organ failure, and outcome in critically ill obstetric patients treated in an ICU. Chest 120:1271–1277
13. Direcci n de estad sticas e informaci n de salud (2002) Estad sticas vitales— Informaci n b sica a o 2001. Ministerio de Salud. Buenos Aires, Argentina
 
  • #104
Up to a certain point, a fetus cannot be regarded as anything else than a quaint appendage in a woman's body.
That woman has, of course, full rights as to decide over her own body parts.
 
  • #105
Evo said:
Abortion was legalized in the US because of the high incidence of death, sterility and other serious side affects of illegal abortions. But this mostly only happened to the poor, the rich could "arrange" medical abortions for their daughters, either through a friend or relative or by flying their daughter to a country where abortion was legal. But I guess none of you bothered to research why abortion was legalized here?

Did you bother to research why abortion is legal here? This page contains the full text of the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade.

  • This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.

The original district court ruling stated that the Ninth Amendent to the US Constitution guaranteed a right of privacy that included the decision to terminate a pregnancy without state interference. The Supreme Court disagreed, but ruled that, in fact, the Fourteenth Amendment guaranteed that right.

  • On the basis of elements such as these, appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past.

Contrary to what many people believe, the Supreme Court did not interpret the constitution in such a way that the right to terminate a pregnancy was absolute. The state is said to have a legitimate interest at some point during pregnancy in protecting both the health of the mother and in protecting potential life. When this point occurs is never stated.

  • We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.

The above statement seems to indicate that some level of state regulation, in the aforementioned interests of protecting maternal health and unborn life, is constitutional. Again, how much regulation and what form it is allowed to take is never stated.

  • The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well-known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.

    . . .

    All this, together with our observation, supra, that throughout the major portion of the 19th century prevailing legal abortion practices were far freer than they are today, persuades us that the word "person," as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn.

The above statement by the Court is the basis of contemporary pro-life arguments that, if it can be established that the unborn should be granted the status of personhood based on moral concerns, then Roe v. Wade becomes moot, and indeed guarantees that these unborn have the right not to be killed.

Note that the court never ruled on the matter of whether or not the unborn should be considered persons. In fact, the court took no stand on the issue of when life began or what the moral status of a fetus was. They ruled only that the constitution and subsequent rulings have never recognized the unborn as having full personhood (similar to the Dred Scott decision). They did, however, say this:

  • In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth. For example, the traditional rule of tort law denied recovery for prenatal injuries even though the child was born alive. That rule has been changed in almost every jurisdiction. In most States, recovery is said to be permitted only if the fetus was viable, or at least quick, when the injuries were sustained, though few courts have squarely so held. In a recent development, generally opposed by the commentators, some States permit the parents of a stillborn child to maintain an action for wrongful death because of prenatal injuries. Such an action, however, would appear to be one to vindicate the parents' interest and is thus consistent with the view that the fetus, at most, represents only the potentiality of life. Similarly, unborn children have been recognized as acquiring rights or interests by way of inheritance or other devolution of property, and have been represented by guardians ad litem. Perfection of the interests involved, again, has generally been contingent upon live birth. In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense.

This was true at the time of the ruling. Although limited personhood was granted to the unborn by some laws and rulings, each of these granted personhood contingent on the fact that the unborn should eventually become born. Should they die before birth, whatever rights they had been granted were thus taken away. Ignoring the illogic of this stance, we have the further problem that, as of today, the legal status of personhood is not just bestowed upon the unborn contingent on their birth. California at least, and perhaps other states (though I am not certain of this) now allows that anyone other than the mother or physician of the mother be charged with murder for the killing of an unborn child. This is discussed by myself in the Scott Peterson thread. The Roe v. Wade decision was made contingent upon the fact that no prior ruling had ever recognized full personhood for the unborn, unless they eventually were born. Now we have laws and rulings in which full personhood is granted to unborn children who never are born. With a significant part of the Supreme Court's rationale taken away, what are we now to do?

The Court also stated this:

  • As we have intimated above, it is reasonable and appropriate for a State to decide that at some point in time another interest, that of health of the mother or that of potential human life, becomes significantly involved. The woman's privacy is no longer sole and any right of privacy she possesses must be measured accordingly.

I urge you to consider all of this, and ask yourself whether the legal basis of abortion is really as strong as you previously believed.
 
  • #106
at conception the fetus is not even connected to the mother, it is not until later. Also, at 14 days the fetus has its own nervous tissue, which is like a premature brain.

And (im not trying to be offensive) if one thinks a fetus is worthless, then they should know they to must also be worthless. Where is a adult different than a fetus? What is the scale that all things are rated on there value? Why are killing egals illeagal, yet we can kill our on kids? Where are we different from the millions of bacteria that we kill every time we wash our hands?

For any human to be worth something, it must be worth something to something else than one of its kind, something that can think.
 
  • #107
Would not the government kill any human adult or child to protect it self. If abortoin is right, so then is the governments dicession that a person life has less no value any more.
 
  • #108
Evo said:
That's just the court case

Yes, the ruling that decriminalized abortion.

I am talking about the reasons people were pushing to get abortions legalized.

We can debate the motives of the abortion advocates from here to kingdom come. Suffice to say I have as little interest in that discussion--and even less reason to agree with you--as where it concerns your tangent about conservative compassion for the otherwise unfortunate.

I lived through that time.

A point of fact I neither contest or find terribly relevant to the discussion.

Rev Prez
 
  • #109
Moonbear said:
Evo is correct that making abortion illegal isn't going to make it go away, it only makes it less safe.

No he's not. And your evidence only indicates that in developing countries, life is very difficult for women.
 
  • #110
loseyourname said:
Did you bother to research why abortion is legal here? This page contains the full text of the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade.
That just happens to be the case that made abortion legal in the remaining states. Abortions were legal in CA & NY prior to Roe vs Wade, did you know that?

Women's rights to decisions about their bodies and to stop women from being needlessly killed, accidently sterilized and internally mutilated as a result of illegal abortions were the key issues. The ruling in a case is not the same as what was considered the important issues, what is important is that the case was won. The case did not need to go over all the issues.
 
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  • #111
lawtonfogle said:
Would not the government kill any human adult or child to protect it self. If abortoin is right, so then is the governments dicession that a person life has less no value any more.

There's no need to even go that far. The simple fact is Roe v. Wade and every pro-choice argument rests on the principle that the fetus is not a person. The most disingenuous argument is that because people are treated poorly in real life, pro-lifers are hypocritically seeking to treat fetuses as human beings. I'm waiting for one of our pro-choice luminaries to explain why it is inconceivable to simultaneously appreciate right to life and equal protection of the unborn as well as the admirable goal of improving the lives of all. Given the quality of responses ("you're a man," "why don't you go feed a real kid"), I'm not terribly hopeful.

Rev Prez
 
  • #112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbear
Evo is correct that making abortion illegal isn't going to make it go away, it only makes it less safe.

Rev Prez said:
No he's not.
You think making abortion illegal will make it stop? Please post your evidence that shows that when abortion was illegal that it wasn't done.

And your evidence only indicates that in developing countries, life is very difficult for women.
Are you saying that the women that died from complications directly related to the illegal abortion were caused by a hard life?

I'm with you Moonbear, this just isn't getting anywhere.
 
  • #113
"Pro-lifers" are quite consistent in their attitudes:
They couldn't care less about the lives and happiness of actually existing human beings; they live in a fantasy world dictated by simplistic ideas because they are too dumb to face the complexities of real life.

They represent the most primitive segment of the human population, the charitable attitude towards them is pity, I suppose.
 
  • #114
Many I have heard say put your money where your mouth is. They say i should not say no to abortion unless I can pay for the child un till he/she is an adult. And in the case of mental retardation, pay for them until they die.

I would like to know how many people who voted on one of the canidates for Presidency could have paid their salary if they won. How about those who voted for the war in Iraq, how many could have paid for the cost, more so how many could pay for the life lost. How many who voted not to have the war could have paid that price. How many who did not vote on the subject could have paid for the bill the results of their response.
 
  • #115
Evo said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbear
Evo is correct that making abortion illegal isn't going to make it go away, it only makes it less safe.

You think making abortion illegal will make it stop? Please post your evidence that shows that when abortion was illegal that it wasn't done.

Making rape or murder or theft illegal does not stop it. So using your argument, should these be made legal.[/quote]
 
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  • #116
arildno said:
"Pro-lifers" are quite consistent in their attitudes:
They couldn't care less about the lives and happiness of actually existing human beings; they live in a fantasy world dictated by simplistic ideas because they are too dumb to face the complexities of real life.

They represent the most primitive segment of the human population, the charitable attitude towards them is pity, I suppose.


The world is in such a state that anylife brought into it will fill pain.
While pro-life are 'in there fantasy' are not the pro-choice in their own thinking they can make life better in their own way. There will always be pain, and death.
 
  • #117
Evo said:
That just happens to be the case that made abortion legal in the remaining states. Abortions were legal in CA & NY prior to Roe vs Wade, did you know that?

Abortion was legal everywhere up to the 18th week of pregnancy prior to the mid 1800's in the US. Anti-abortion legislation that proscribes all abortion has no basis in common law. I know the legal history very well, as I've studied the legal and ethical ramifications of abortion in three separate ethics classes and one debate class. According to the Supreme Court decision:

  • By the end of the 1950's, a large majority of the jurisdictions banned abortion, however and whenever performed, unless done to save or preserve the life of the mother. The exceptions, Alabama and the District of Columbia, permitted abortion to preserve the mother's health. Three States permitted abortions that were not "unlawfully" performed or that were not "without lawful justification," leaving interpretation of those standards to the courts. In the past several years, however, a trend toward liberalization of abortion statutes has resulted in adoption, by about one-third of the States, of less stringent laws, most of them patterned after the ALI Model Penal Code.

The ALI (American Legal Institute) model was based largely on the findings of Dr. Alfred Kinsey. His research (much of which is now considered to be dubitable at best) resulted in recommendations by the ALI that, among other things:

  • Sodomy be legalized.
  • Welfare programs be expanded to increase the benefits given according to the number of children in the household (more babies, more money).
  • Decriminalization of adultery.
  • Increased ease in the granting of a divorce.
  • Redefining rape to include what had previously been minor sexual assault charges that are still usually bargained down to misdemeanors.
  • Lowering the age of sexual consent.

The Kinsey findings also resulted in dramatic changes to sex education programs. The aim of the ALI model was to liberalize American sexual norms, not to decrease the incidence of botched illegal abortions.

But anyway, as I've said before, we should not be arguing about how much the other knows. Any argument that targets the arguer rather than his argument is considered to be an informal logical fallacy that is forbidden in structured debates, except when the honesty of the arguer or the expertise of someone passing himself off as an expert is in question. We should instead be discussing the merits of the arguments being presented, something you have yet to do. Given the length I have gone to to present cogent and detailed arguments, I would appreciate it if they were addressed.
 
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  • #118
lawtonfogle said:
Making rape or murder or theft illegal does not stop it. So using your argument, should these be made legal.
Legal abortion is about a woman's right to making decisions about her own body, and the ability to have a safe abortion, it does not make it legal for her to go around performing abortions on other women against their will.
 
  • #119
Evo said:
Legal abortion is about a woman's right to making decisions about her own body, and the ability to have a safe abortion, it does not make it legal for her to go around performing abortions on other women against their will.


Is the fetus part of the women or its own living being dependent on the mother for food, just like a new born?
 
  • #120
lawtonfogle said:
Is the fetus part of the women or its own living being dependent on the mother for food, just like a new born?
Prior to the end of the 8th week it is not considered a fetus. I'm discussing first trimester abortion for any reason, there is no fetus involved. You keep saying fetus, are you only against second and third trimester abortions then?
 

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