Should Algebra Be Required At Community Colleges?

[symbolipoint]

I've been thinking a lot over the last few weeks about this without posting. The main reason I posted was to be challenged, and maybe garner some ideas from all of you.

I...

Sorry to waste everyone's' time.

This topic was, although containing slightly outrageous comments, NOT a waste of time. This was a good topic and well-discussed.

 

[bhobba]

Circling back to the original discussion, I will note that even a liberal arts school like Hillsdale College requires one semester each of Math, Chemistry, Physics, and Biology of all their majors, even the humanities. Their view of education has these course requirements even for majors in: French, German, Politics, Art, Greek, Psychology, History, Religion, Latin, Marketing, Music, Theater, Physical Education, and Philosophy.

Without a doubt, despite what Brown does, that's exactly what Liberal Arts colleges should do. Especially important I think is a subject I would call statistical thinking. It would help the rise of silly movements like ani-vaccers to know, for example, the chance of dying while driving your child to school is much higher than an adverse reaction to vaccination, yet both are of obvious benefit to all.

Of course if you do STEM its virtually certain stats will be part of your program. It was for mine - I did Mathematical Stats 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b - only 3a and 3b were optional and that hasn't changed except its called slightly different things like statistical inference or modelling. I actually didn't like stats that much but the reason I did 3a, 3b was I liked the lecturer a lot he was a funny guy - you always heard laughter from his classes. I remember one joke well - a bit sexist, but relevant and you couldn't help laughing - statistics is like a bikini - it's the bits you don't see you want to know about.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The math class is the weight room for the mind.

 

[gfd43tg]

I'm okay with it if science/math majors are not forced to take a ton of humanities courses. Of course, then many of those theater/drama instructors will be out of a job since significantly less people would take the course if it wasn't a requirement! That's the point.

I actually attended a California Community College. Classes are overfilled and you won't get out reasonably in 2 years as a STEM major. Anything to reduce the non-STEM workload would help to alleviate the problem. I had to take a a lot of non-STEM courses that did no good for me. I learn more history watching documentaries on youtube than I ever did in my college course.

 

[Vanadium 50]

. I had to take a a lot of non-STEM courses that did no good for me.

I believe that. However, shouldn't they at least try?

Specifically, you have been unable to persuade us that tinting laws shouldn't apply to you, unable to persuade us that you deserve substantially more money while providing substantially less value to your company than your salary, and unable to persuade us that an 8 hour workday is too long. Given this, shouldn't you be advocating for more and better classes involving persuasive writing?

I am unswayed by your argument here - if you found no value in some of your classes, why should the other classes - presumably the ones you did find valuable - no longer be required?

 

[gfd43tg]

I believe that. However, shouldn't they at least try?

Specifically, you have been unable to persuade us that tinting laws shouldn't apply to you, unable to persuade us that you deserve substantially more money while providing substantially less value to your company than your salary, and unable to persuade us that an 8 hour workday is too long. Given this, shouldn't you be advocating for more and better classes involving persuasive writing?

I am unswayed by your argument here - if you found no value in some of your classes, why should the other classes - presumably the ones you did find valuable - no longer be required? I'll take the "pittance salary" that I was unable to persuade you on. Or do you mind writing me a check?

Yeah my thread was locked before I even had a chance to respond. Tint laws don't apply to government official vehicles though. Just us common folk. I guess if you are in a marked car its easier to drive at night??

I would advocate for technical writing classes offered in the english (or mixed with science/engineering) department at the CC level. Also, I'm not even trying to make an argument. I'm just pointing out that humanities majors do not have to take math, but STEM majors have to take humanities? I think I took at least 6 humanities/art classes in total, whereas they don't even have to take one math class? I am perfectly okay with neither of us taking courses that are not related. I don't even think this is controversial in many countries, even in Europe.

By the way, there is a real world impact of making me take all those unnecessary courses. It's very difficult to go through CC in 2 years, which pushes us back a year, which means we get our job a year later, which means opportunity COST of non-employment for the year I was in school. All so they can "try" to make art history more useful to me? I would rather have my "pittance" annual salary that I was unable to persuade you on. Or are you willing to write me a check? Since it seems like you really want to send me back to school for persuasive writing.

 

[Mark44]

Yeah my thread was locked before I even had a chance to respond. Tint laws don't apply to government official vehicles though.

Is this just anecdotal, or can you cite specific laws in your state that make an exception for government vehicles with regard to the tinting?

Just us common folk. I guess if you are in a marked car its easier to drive at night??

I would advocate for technical writing classes offered in the english (or mixed with science/engineering) department at the CC level. Also, I'm not even trying to make an argument. I'm just pointing out that humanities majors do not have to take math, but STEM majors have to take humanities? I think I took at least 6 humanities/art classes in total, whereas they don't even have to take one math class? I am perfectly okay with neither of us taking courses that are not related. I don't even think this is controversial in many countries, even in Europe.

I can empathize with you to some extent here. Before transferring to a four-year school, I needed to take a few classes in "general education" which for me included Art History, Music Appreciation, Anthropology, and Philosophy. Many (most?) four-year schools have an interest in producing well-rounded graduates rather than ones who have passed through a narrowly focussed curriculum. I don't begrudge having to take those classes very much, but I agree that students in the humanities (including art) ought to have at least some knowledge of mathematics and the sciences, if only to be as well-rounded as the STEM students are.

By the way, there is a real world impact of making me take all those unnecessary courses. It's very difficult to go through CC in 2 years, which pushes us back a year, which means we get our job a year later, which means opportunity COST. All so they can "try" to make art history more useful to me? I would rather have my "pittance" annual salary that I was unable to persuade you on. Or are you willing to write me a check?

 

[gfd43tg]

Is this just anecdotal, or can you cite specific laws in your state that make an exception for government vehicles with regard to the tinting?

Doesn't matter whether or not it's in the books. I'm not going to go dig through the code to try and find where the rules are, probably hidden since it pertains to government vehicles. I care about actual enforcement (j-walking is on the books too I'm sure). That's why I didn't care before since police where I am generally don't enforce that particular law. The percentage never changed, only that it is now part of the annual safety inspection. Here's a photo of my state's governor (can you guess who this is?) getting into a vehicle. That front window I am certain is 5% VLT.

 

[Mark44]

Is this just anecdotal, or can you cite specific laws in your state that make an exception for government vehicles with regard to the tinting?

Doesn't matter whether or not it's in the books. I'm not going to go dig through the code to try and find where the rules are, probably hidden since it pertains to government vehicles.

From the rules for this forum:

Generally, discussion topics should be traceable to standard textbooks or to peer-reviewed scientific literature.

In this case, that would include a citation of the specific state law. The laws for each state are public knowledge. In my state, Washington they are known as the RCW (Revised Code of Washington) and are accessible online. There are no "hidden" laws.

I care about actual enforcement (j-walking is on the books too I'm sure). Here's a photo of my state's governor (can you guess who this is?) getting into a vehicle. That front window I am certain is 5% VLT.

I don't see how that can be true. You can see the A pillar inside the car pretty clearly. At only 5% VLT I don't think you would be able to.

In any case, we're veering off-topic. Let's get back to the discussion about whether algebra should be required for college students.

 

[gfd43tg]

The answer to the question is that it should be required for high school students!

 

[alemsalem]

I'm not sure if Algebra specifically is actually necessary for these fields. However, if the point is to make things easier so that more people pass, then that's not a good educational decision. I think physics and math are valuable to other fields, it could train them to solve problems in ways that they wouldn't get in other fields. I would speculate if math and physics education was better, then more people will make better decisions in society.

To answer your specific questions. Sure don't fail people based on something they won't use. But make sure you test their problem solving abilities and make sure they can make intelligent decisions and think properly.

 

[thejosh]

Reading literature enables effective analysis, whereas maths develops problem solving skills.A person who is enriched with literature usually(in my opinion) is very good at analysing a situation and annotating why something happened but a person with mad maths skills would rather solve the situation then analyse it.Now, I know this sounds ridiculous when you first read it but consider this example(I made it up but you'll get the idea):
A car smashes into a wall. Two witnesses are asked to give an account of what happened.One stated that the driver must've seen the police at the bottom of the road and, trying to avoid them, attempted a u turn and somehow lost control. The other witness stated that the cars inertia was too great for it to turn a full 360 degrees without its center of mass causing it to create a moments which would overturn it so the driver tried to counter this and, due to conservation of momentum, smashed into the wall attempting to stop. Both of them are correct but their accounts don't make sense until put together.That's maths and literature- two seemingly different subjects that actually compliment each other. That, in my opinion, is why a litterateur sometimes goes too far to the "imaginative side" and a mathematician will often lack imagination- they're not complete unless together.
https://numbersandshapes.net/2012/11/creativity-and-mathematics/

 

[thejosh]

I'm trying to decide if this should bother me or please me.

Bother you, it should definitely bother you. It entails that the general public benefit greatly from the development of science but instantly tag scientists as nerds or "smart social outcasts." Terrible just terrible IMO

 

[Mark44]

A car smashes into a wall. Two witnesses are asked to give an account of what happened.One stated that the driver must've seen the police at the bottom of the road and, trying to avoid them, attempted a u turn and somehow lost control. The other witness stated that the cars inertia was too great for it to turn a full 360 degrees

After a 360° the car would be going in the same direction.

without its center of mass causing it to create a moments which would overturn it so the driver tried to counter this and, due to conservation of momentum, smashed into the wall attempting to stop. Both of them are correct but their accounts don't make sense until put together.That's maths and literature- two seemingly different subjects that actually compliment each other.

I don't interpret your examples as literature vs. math. Your first example attempts to explain the motivation of the driver. The second example describes the behavior of the car.

That, in my opinion, is why a litterateur sometimes goes too far to the "imaginative side" and a mathematician will often lack imagination- they're not complete unless together.

 

[thejosh]

After a 360° the car would be going in the same direction.

Sorry I meant to say 180 degrees - don't worry school's starting soon.

I don't interpret your examples as literature vs. math. Your first example attempts to explain the motivation of the driver. The second example describes the behavior of the car.

The mathematician calculated the reason the car overturned rather than the reason behind the driver;'s actions whilst the litterateur did the opposite- he deduced the motivation behind the driver's actions rather than the reason the car smashed into the wall.

 

[thejosh]

That shows the perspectives of a mathematician vs a litterateur.

 

[Mark44]

Sorry I meant to say 180 degrees - don't worry school's starting soon.

The mathematician calculated the reason the car overturned rather than the reason behind the driver;'s actions whilst the litterateur did the opposite- he deduced the motivation behind the driver's actions rather than the reason the car smashed into the wall.

As I said before, your examples provide explanations from two different perspectives. Someone versed in basic physics could provide both perspectives: an explanation of the car's motion and a reasoned guess at the driver's motivation.

 

[thejosh]

It's just an example- in literature you commonly analyse people's characters and motives but in physics you do calculations and deduce equations and a person who has done basic physics has probably at least completed a year or two of literature anyway.

 

[Mark44]

Reading literature enables effective analysis

I'm not sure that this is true. One necessary condition for effective analysis is the ability to reason logically.

 

[thejosh]

Even the simplest question posed in a literature exam will require some degree of logic.

 

[russ_watters]

Bother you, it should definitely bother you. It entails that the general public benefit greatly from the development of science but instantly tag scientists as nerds or "smart social outcasts." Terrible just terrible IMO

...that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. The real answer is I'm [mostly] delighted by it:

My personal (and political) philosophy of personal freedom/personal responsibility comes with a perspective of always looking for and usually adopting the most positive, non-confrontational position where my desires and the desires of others do not intersect. Applied here, as I said in another thread recently, if an adult doesn't want to learn math/science, fine! They're happy that they have an easier time in college and I'm happy that I won't ever have to compete with them for a job! Everyone wins!

Does the namecalling bother me? No, definitely not. I learned in high school that the trump card response to being called a "nerd", etc. is: "Be nice to me or 10 years from now I'll fire you." I'm proud of being a nerd/geek/dork. I literally wear it as a badge of honor (on a t-shirt).

Note, this doesn't alter my opinion on the core issue of the thread: schooling in a broad range of subjects should continue to be mandatory through high school, with specialization starting after, for people who intend to go to college. For people who don't intend to go to college, specialization should start earlier (with vo-tech schooling). Similarly, parents should not be selling their kids short by example or guidance.

 

[thejosh]

@russ_watters You may wear it as a badge of honor but a lot of other people who would've otherwise done science and achieved their goals were discouraged by societies harsh outlook to "nerds" and "geeks" etc. Science is not just about getting jobs its wonderfull in itself and needs the next einstein to improve it - we're all benefiting from it- imagine if you called a person a nerd and they drop science when they could've gone on to do something extraordinary ;like discover the cure for cancer, you would've effectively prevented the saving of millions of lives with one word.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Note, this doesn't alter my opinion on the core issue of the thread: schooling in a broad range of subjects should continue to be mandatory through high school, with specialization starting after, for people who intend to go to college.

My view is that general education in a broad range of subjects continues to be very valuable for the first half of college. Several factors draw me to this conclusion:

1. Based on logic and experience, I buy into the rationale behind a solid classic liberal arts education. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education

2. For those seeking a four year degree, there is plenty of time for specialization in the last two years, assuming a solid foundation in the usual introductory coursework in the first two (roughly half the coursework). Likewise, for those seeking a two year degree, there is plenty of time for specialization in the second year. A 75/25 split (specialized/general) is enough. A 100/0 split creates automatons more than thinkers.

3. Many high school grads reach college without the broad based knowledge they should have (that they would have if graduation really required what it claims to.) Revisiting it is a worthwhile endeavor for 25% or so of the college coursework. A college degree should be a guarantee of the things students should have learned in high school. Taking that expected high school knowledge/skill/ability for granted in the real world is short-sighted, unrealistic, and foolish.

4. All education is training to be a functioning adult in our society, not just for earning a living. We are not just educating employees for their tasks, we are educating jurors and voters also. The collective knowledge of a jury regarding quantitative and scientific reasoning is more important than ever given how expert testimony works in a courtroom. The collective knowledge of the voting public is more important than ever given the importance of quantitative and scientific reasoning in policy making. Ever wish those politicians were better at math and science? That starts with making the voters better at math and science.

 

[symbolipoint]

As I said before, your examples provide explanations from two different perspectives. Someone versed in basic physics could provide both perspectives: an explanation of the car's motion and a reasoned guess at the driver's motivation.

He's trying. His example may be, maybe is not working. A different example, maybe better. But really, Literature is the Art of Writing and Story-Telling. Algebra has a different purpose, but still relies on great literacy (just as Literature...).

 

[SciencewithDrJ]

The chancellor of CCC needs to address the real roots of the problem: poor math preparation at the high school level. He should lobby with the state education boards to improve the standard in high schools, so that students coming into his community colleges for an Associate Degree can no longer be so intimidated by the algebra course, because they would have the strong base to enable them to handle it.

 

[vela]

The chancellor of CCC needs to address the real roots of the problem: poor math preparation at the high school level. He should lobby with the state education boards to improve the standard in high schools, so that students coming into his community colleges for an Associate Degree can no longer be so intimidated by the algebra course, because they would have the strong base to enable them to handle it.

Gee, why didn't someone else think of that? If it were simply a matter of lobbying to raise standards, this problem would have been solved decades ago.

 

[SciencewithDrJ]

Gee, why didn't someone else think of that? If it were simply a matter of lobbying to raise standards, this problem would have been solved decades ago.

Every long journey has a first step. I suggested looking at the root of the problem, which is always advisable. It may well take a decade, but at least the issue would start to be tackled by someone somewhere somehow.

 

[vela]

The root of the problem isn't poor math preparation. That's the symptom. The real questions are, among others: Why are so many people in the US so intimidated by math? Is it the way it's taught? Are there better ways to teach the same skills? Why is it acceptable to taxpayers for math standards for high school graduation to be so low? How can we change that? What are the right math standards? Should it be one size fits all or should we recognize different levels of competence? How do we realistically deal with the students we have now who have been failed by the public school system?

 

[SciencewithDrJ]

The root of the problem isn't poor math preparation. That's the symptom. The real questions are, among others: Why are so many people in the US so intimidated by math? Is it the way it's taught? Are there better ways to teach the same skills? Why is it acceptable to taxpayers for math standards for high school graduation to be so low? How can we change that? What are the right math standards? Should it be one size fits all or should we recognize different levels of competence? How do we realistically deal with the students we have now who have been failed by the public school system?

Those are excellent questions indeed. I don't know much about the US school system, but here in Canada (which is essentially a similar culture and right next door to the US) math is not a big issue among students. It may well be a worthwhile research project for a science education graduate student to identify why that is so.

What is a realistic solution now for current students, that is tough and I share the concerns of all parties concerned. Perhaps a compromise can be reached to require a less advanced course, with a crash course requisite to upgrade the standard prior to taking the course.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The chancellor of CCC needs to address the real roots of the problem: poor math preparation at the high school level. He should lobby with the state education boards to improve the standard in high schools, so that students coming into his community colleges for an Associate Degree can no longer be so intimidated by the algebra course, because they would have the strong base to enable them to handle it.

I agree, but I would not hold my breath. The chancellor of CCC does not have the authority to change what is happening in high schools.

S/He does have the authority to give the faculty full authority to fail EACH AND EVERY student who does not meet the proper standards of learning in their math courses. Of course, they'd probably also have to stop using student evals for any other purpose than informing the faculty.

 

[Dr.D]

S/He does have the authority to give the faculty full authority to fail EACH AND EVERY student who does not meet the proper standards of learning in their math courses. Of course, they'd probably also have to stop using student evals for any other purpose than informing the faculty.

That will be the day! I really had to laugh when I read this. I have fought many battles with college administration over failing just a very few students, and the very idea of failing all who fail to show competence is simply a riot! When this happens, we will no longer need colleges; the end of the age will have arrived!

 

[Dr. Courtney]

That will be the day! I really had to laugh when I read this. I have fought many battles with college administration over failing just a very few students, and the very idea of failing all who fail to show competence is simply a riot! When this happens, we will no longer need colleges; the end of the age will have arrived!

If a college is unwilling to maintain standards, then they are hypocritical to expect it of high schools.

 

[Dr.D]

If a college is unwilling to maintain standards, then they are hypocritical to expect it of high schools.

Oh, I agree, I fully agree! We are surrounded by hypocrites, but that is the world we live in.

 

[Mike Bergen]

I believe CCCs are Open enrollment and get to insist on remedial classes to address the shortcomings of the "feeder schools"
I don't see them using limited resources tipping at the windmills of a schools system like the one we have in Philadelphia where, through "social promotion" we graduate young people who are lucky if they read at a 6 grade level. As a person who has been involved with Apprentice training, I can report they leave High school not able to read a ruler or add fractions. How long is 3/4 plus 1/2 IF you can't come up with 1 1/4" in your head then you can't be in my world

 

[symbolipoint]

I believe CCCs are Open enrollment and get to insist on remedial classes to address the shortcomings of the "feeder schools"
I don't see them using limited resources tipping at the windmills of a schools system like the one we have in Philadelphia where, through "social promotion" we graduate young people who are lucky if they read at a 6 grade level. As a person who has been involved with Apprentice training, I can report they leave High school not able to read a ruler or add fractions. How long is 3/4 plus 1/2 IF you can't come up with 1 1/4" in your head then you can't be in my world

One of the important purposes of community college is to offer remedial courses for adults. If not from community colleges, then must make remediation available at the local adult schools, which in some way are in competition with the community colleges; not sure who is winning currently but everybody is hustling for funding.

 

[bhobba]

I don't know much about the US school system, but here in Canada (which is essentially a similar culture and right next door to the US) math is not a big issue among students.

I am in Australia but know a bit about the US system from answering general education questions on Yahoo answers which at one time I did a lot.

Two things really struck me. One was when in California they made algebra compulsory in grade 8. There was this howl - too hard for grade 8's etc etc. I was just gobsmacked - we do it here in a combined course with geometry in grade 7 and 8 and we used to start grade one at 5 yo - its now 6 like the US but we were doing it at the start of the US middle school effectively. There was no howl of this is too hard etc etc. What there is a howl abut in Aus is the dwindling number of people doing advanced math in 11 and 12. We have some schools with specialist advanced math programs where you complete year 10 math in grade 9 and do 11 and 12 math in 10 and 11, then in grade 12 you do first year university math which taken together is equivalent to US Calc 1, 2 and 3 plus half a semester of differential equations and half a semester of linear algebra. You complete the second half a semester of both at a higher level second year. Its so at second year you have enough knowledge to do things like Markov chains, and mathematical modelling. But overall people taking advanced math is dwindling. People are really concerned about it here - not algebra - that's taken for granted - but people should at least be doing a bit of calculus.

They are trying all sorts of things - but nothing seems to wok - people just don't want to do advanced math. It really is both a shame and a big problem. They have a show out here called Q&A and had some educators discussing future education and jobs. The general consensus was if you don't do something STEM related (that would include finance, actuarial studies, advanced economics etc) then your future is rather dim - just about all future jobs will require it.

Thanks
Bill

 

[ISamson]

Two things really struck me. One was when in California they made algebra compulsory in grade 8. There was this howl - too hard for grade 8's etc etc.

I am now in year 7 in Australia (Perth) and we just did algebra.
Easy. We did it ALL the year before and plus I am in HPL (High Performance Learning).

 

[SciencewithDrJ]

But overall people taking advanced math is dwindling

Are there any studies to probe why there is so much resistance?

 

[bhobba]

Are there any studies to probe why there is so much resistance?

Two reasons:

1. Typical first year economics subjects once required a smattering of calculus so you had as a pre-requisite what we call maths B which is a bit below (but not much) US calculus AB. That has mostly been removed so since most people in most courses do some economics there is now no formal reason to do it.

2. Simple desire to take the easy route - they see a degree as a meal ticket without worrying too much about exactly what degree. They know if you take the hard STEM subjects your initial salary is better, but if you take the soft options while your salary isn't as much initially, you are better prepared for the higher paid management type jobs later that require more of the 'soft' arts type skills. It's reasonably true now, but the thinking is that will quickly change as less actual management jobs will be required, all jobs will need technical skill.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

I am now in year 7 in Australia (Perth) and we just did algebra.
Easy. We did it ALL the year before and plus I am in HPL (High Performance Learning).

That's right - those in advanced math programs do it even earlier than grade 7 - like I said here in Queensland we used to start school at 5 years of age so everything was done a year earlier - we didn't have any problems I knew about. Starting age was changed to 6 to being us into line with most other countries and other Australian states but will it make any actual difference to the quality of university graduates - well I never heard of any difference between Queensland graduates and other states.

Thanks
Bill

 

[TeethWhitener]

But overall people taking advanced math is dwindling.

The evidence (at least in the US) does not support your hypothesis:
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cod.asp

Edit: In fact we can go further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Calculus
According to this data, the number of students taking AP calculus (AB and BC) has increased basically linearly for the past decade or so, but the mean scores received on these exams have remained the same. Assuming that the test hasn't become less challenging over that time frame, this would imply that more (not fewer) students have a baseline competency in calculus each year.

 

[bhobba]

The evidence (at least in the US) does not support your hypothesis:

I can assure you its true in Aus - politicians and educators are very concerned about it - I would give a link but its likely behind a paywall so here is the relevant information from, for example, the Sydney Morning Herald, October 6 2014, under the heading '20-year decline in year 12 science and maths participation, study finds'.

I will paraphrase it. While the number of students attending year 12 increased by 16 per cent between 1992 and 2012, those students studying chemistry, biology, physics and advanced or intermediate maths subjects decreased dramatically.

Intermediate math would be Maths B which as I alluded to is a bit below US Calculus AB, Advanced math, which can only be taken if you do Math B as well, called Math C where I am, takes you to Calculus BC level plus does a bit more than the US in probability and linear algebra. Of course some of the better schools in the US would in their pre-calculus do probability and linear algebra to a similar standard. Everyone must do at least maths A which would be equivalent to your pre-calculus.

When I did 11 and 12 in 1972 at 16 (remember I mentioned we started school at 5 where I was) nearly everyone, except a couple of students, did the following 6 subjects:

English
Math B
Math C
Physics
Chemistry
Biology or Geometrical Drawing and Perspective depending on if you saw your future more in the sciences or engineering - I did Geometrical Drawing and Perspective because I thought I would do some kind of Engineering - particularly Electrical Engineering.

Didn't work out that way, on a 1 to 7 scale I got 5 for everything except English, which I got a 3 - that was considered a fail. I was as lazy as the proverbial - didn't even study before exams - simply got by on what I picked up in class and had an interest in electronics in those days. Some universities here required at least a 4 in English, but some didn't. I could have gone to uni but by that time I was sick of school so went out to work instead. Later at age 21 did a part time degree in math and computer science.

As you can see from at least 1992 there has been a drastic reduction in people taking advanced math. And when I did it in 1972 nearly everyone did it.

For me this is really, really bad and represents a drastic decline in standards. I am not the only one worried - politicians and educators are just as concerned.

Of relevance here is we aren't worried about algebra - everyone here takes for granted you do that at much lower grades - equivalent to your middle school - it's calculus etc that worries us. The situation would seem to be different in the US.

The only bright spot I see here in Australia is the school I attended (and others are doing the same) has an advanced math program where you complete math B and C in 10 and 11 and do university math in year 12:
http://www.indoorooshs.eq.edu.au/curriculum/specialist-programs/maths-and-engineering-acceleration/

I would have jumped at the chance to do that, but it wasn't available when I did it. I may have even done some work

Thanks
Bill

 

[Apple_Mango]

Has there even been any academic article proving how math is essential to college students or high-school and middle-school students for that matter? I have yet to see an article posted.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Has there even been any academic article proving how math is essential to college students or high-school and middle-school students for that matter? I have yet to see an article posted.

I don't think you need a study to tell you basic math (arithmetic, geometry and algebra) is important for all life paths.

 

[bhobba]

I don't think you need a study to tell you basic math (arithmetic, geometry and algebra) is important for all life paths.

Indeed

Every citizen, for example (there are other necessities as well but this is the one I will mention) needs a basic understanding of economics. Now you can study basic economics without a little bit of calculus - but it is made so much easier if you know some calculus. That's why people here in Aus are worried about the falling number of people doing calculus in HS. Algebra is taken for granted.

Thanks
Bill

 

[rootone]

Well if algebra was to be considered not that important then why not say the same about geometry?
Of all basic math skills algebra is probably the most important in that it underlies skills that are very useful in computer programming.

 

[Wilson Donald Rohan]

I think that algebra is very useful for young people. By solving somewhat abstract math problems for homework and exams, students learn fundamental problem-solving skills, using time and logic. So algebra is indirectly beneficial. Also, for those who decide to take calculus, they have less chance of flunking due to poor algebra skills. The same can be said for trigonometry.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

"The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree."

Since this refers to intermediate algebra, I assume this is second year algebra, which has first year algebra as a prerequisite. Perhaps someone can verify this? I don't know how to answer this poll without having a clear idea of exactly what kind of algebra we are talking about.

Recently I read that the number one reason kids drop out of high school in the USA is that they fail algebra. Are they all taking the same algebra course?

This does not relate directly to the question about community colleges, but I think it's a big mistake to expect every high school student to be ready for a four year university. Particularly since in the USA many of the four year liberal arts degrees are a waste of time for many jobs. I think it's also a mistake to force every student to take a difficult algebra course, when for many students this would not be something they would use in their adult life.

Instead, in my opinion, we should have several tracks, including a vocational training track in some field which does not demand algebra for those who are not able to master it. Or if it does require a bit of algebra, teach only what is truly necessary, and teach it at a pace which the less mathematically advanced students can follow. In other words, let's have some common sense. It's very unfair to young people to hold them all to the same standard. One size does not fit all.

So given my opinion about tracking, I suppose I would say, as far as community college goes, don't require an algebra course unless it is truly necessary for whatever track they are on, and be sure the course is taught at the appropriate level.

 

[symbolipoint]

"The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree."

Since this refers to intermediate algebra, I assume this is second year algebra, which has first year algebra as a prerequisite. Perhaps someone can verify this? I don't know how to answer this poll without having a clear idea of exactly what kind of algebra we are talking about.

Recently I read that the number one reason kids drop out of high school in the USA is that they fail algebra. Are they all taking the same algebra course?

This does not relate directly to the question about community colleges, but I think it's a big mistake to expect every high school student to be ready for a four year university. Particularly since in the USA many of the four year liberal arts degrees are a waste of time for many jobs. I think it's also a mistake to force every student to take a difficult algebra course, when for many students this would not be something they would use in their adult life.

Instead, in my opinion, we should have several tracks, including a vocational training track in some field which does not demand algebra for those who are not able to master it. Or if it does require a bit of algebra, teach only what is truly necessary, and teach it at a pace which the less mathematically advanced students can follow. In other words, let's have some common sense. It's very unfair to young people to hold them all to the same standard. One size does not fit all.

So given my opinion about tracking, I suppose I would say, as far as community college goes, don't require an algebra course unless it is truly necessary for whatever track they are on, and be sure the course is taught at the appropriate level.

First year algebra for high school is "introductory algebra", corresponding to the same thing in community college, also often called "Algebra 1". Material is learning variables, monomials, polynomials, instruction going to linear equations, their graphs, quadratic equations, factoring, number properties, including exponent properties.

Second year algebra for high school is "intermediate algebra", corresponding to the same thing in community college, also called "Algebra 2". Material is, roughly, functions, quadratic equations, general formula for quadratic equation including completing the square, a little bit of linear algebra, review of the number properties, Conic Sections and their graphs, sequences and series, inverse of functions, exponential and logarithmic functions, usually a few other topics.

If these Algebra 1 and 2 courses are taught nicely, they will include many application exercises. Rational equations will occur in both courses; and those in Algebra 2 are generally include slightly more complicated rational equation exercises and applications. Algebra 2 can be viewed as a continuation of Algebra 1. Both of these are "college preparatory" in high school but are "remedial" when taken in a college or university.

More is worth saying..., but maybe later from me, if not from other members; so much of it has already been discussed here.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

"The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree."

Since this refers to intermediate algebra, I assume this is second year algebra, which has first year algebra as a prerequisite. Perhaps someone can verify this? I don't know how to answer this poll without having a clear idea of exactly what kind of algebra we are talking about.

Recently I read that the number one reason kids drop out of high school in the USA is that they fail algebra. Are they all taking the same algebra course?

This does not relate directly to the question about community colleges, but I think it's a big mistake to expect every high school student to be ready for a four year university. Particularly since in the USA many of the four year liberal arts degrees are a waste of time for many jobs. I think it's also a mistake to force every student to take a difficult algebra course, when for many students this would not be something they would use in their adult life.

Instead, in my opinion, we should have several tracks, including a vocational training track in some field which does not demand algebra for those who are not able to master it. Or if it does require a bit of algebra, teach only what is truly necessary, and teach it at a pace which the less mathematically advanced students can follow. In other words, let's have some common sense. It's very unfair to young people to hold them all to the same standard. One size does not fit all.

So given my opinion about tracking, I suppose I would say, as far as community college goes, don't require an algebra course unless it is truly necessary for whatever track they are on, and be sure the course is taught at the appropriate level.

But this same argument can be used for people doing stem. Should we create English, and in a broader sense electives that require smaller amounts of writing, for stem majors? Is it really important for a stem major to read 200 pages of literature/ nonscientific articles, and write 10 or more page essays on it? Scientific writing is different from writing done in the social sciences...

Many CC are implementing something called a "pre stats" class to replace intermediate algebra. CC argue that intermediate algebra, which a high number of people in these colleges have problems passing it, does not prepare the student for statistics.

It all boils down to doing the work or not doing the work.