Independent Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and Math exams

[KedarMhaswade]

My daughter (14 years old) is considering to be an independent learner for her high school so that she can pursue her other (serious) interest in sports. Whereas she is focused on her sport, she also wants to study in a flexible environment, the basic sciences and math in both of which she is sufficiently interested. Of course, she wants to get to a good college. We live in California -- she will definitely apply to the UC system.

So, we are going to experiment with her being an independent learner at the high school level (at home).

I am looking for recommendations about exams successes/scores in which are considered by the US colleges for admissions. In a way, I want her to learn science and math for the joy of it and take these independent exams to establish the level of the student and effectiveness of the learning/instruction (in keeping with the Goodhart's Law). For example, (I have heard that) Duolingo level of a student is considered for foreign language proficiency, Khan Academy scores on history are considered for history by several colleges especially for independent learners.

MAA's AMC exams (AMC-8, AMC-10, and AMC-12) are pretty good for math, but I am not sure if they are considered by the US college admissions. Please let me know if they are considered for independent learners.

It is unclear if the SAT has the same standing it used to have before. So, whereas she is planning to take the SAT, it is not clear if SAT is considered by all colleges given some colleges are "test-blind" and may are "test-optional."

I considered College Board's AP exams, but I believe their level is more appropriate for high-school students who are already comfortable with college-level courses. We are deciding against doing APs.

Along with exams, please let me know other pieces of advice (Do's/Don'ts) for which, I am quite aware that, the standard disclaimers apply.

 

[SphericalCow]

I considered College Board's AP exams, but I believe their level is more appropriate for high-school students who are already comfortable with college-level courses. We are deciding against doing APs.

Through what I’ve seen with my peers, getting into UCs for STEM as freshman is really competitive. Some people are rejected with better than 4.0 grades and multiple AP tests.

Since AP tests are already widely used in judging admissions and many other applicants will have AP tests in their application, I think you should reconsider your stance on them. It might go a long way to proving her capabilities in STEM, and admissions officers are very familiar with them.

 

[CrysPhys]

I considered College Board's AP exams, but I believe their level is more appropriate for high-school students who are already comfortable with college-level courses. We are deciding against doing APs.

My advice is to at least look into this more. AP classes have changed a lot in the mucho decades since I was in high school. Back then, we could sign up for AP classes only in our senior year, after having taken 2 - 3 yrs of the subjects earlier in high school. E.g,, I took AP math (calculus) in Grade 12, after taking math in Grades 9 - 11; and AP Physics in Grade 12, after taking physics in Grades 10 and 11.

I meet many young students at the rink where I skate. Several have told me that they started taking AP classes in Grade 9 (high school freshmen!). I was incredulous. But I checked, and some schools do offer some AP classes starting in Grade 9. This site, however, recommends waiting until students have a more solid foundation and start in Grade 10 (!): https://www.bestcolleges.com/blog/which-ap-classes-should-you-take/.

So I don't know what it means these days to take an allegedly college-level course in some subjects with previous zero or 1 yr high-school level exposure. I didn't follow up any further, but I recommend that you do.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I agree that APs are....um...evolving.

However, I don't think they solve your fundamental issue. You can't wait three or four years to see how well this plan is working. You need to know after one year, and one semester would be better.

I don't have a good answer, but I think you need to think about assessing sooner rather than later.

 

[KedarMhaswade]

Oh, I understand. My son (who recently graduated from high school) did 6 APs and did well on them. He too is/was an independent learner. He has secured an admission to a very good college (starting in fall 2023). We have carefully documented all that process. Should there be interest, I can share what we did (it's all on the Web).

But my daughter wants to more seriously pursue her sport interest and will try to secure a sport-based admission. However, that's a challenging proposition as I know that the competition there is even more stiff.

What we are doing is essentially the proverbial Plan B. Whereas I am ambivalent about APs (I like some aspects of it), I believe that APs are not for everyone. I am trying to seek a sort of middle ground. I'd like to ask other fellow parents, and other educators who are familiar with college admissions process about the things that they look for in independent learners.

Of course, colleges have the so-called "requirements" which we will try our best to satisfy (e.g. four years of English). But I wanted to get more definitive answers, especially about a (more-or-less) standard (accredited), third-party science and math evaluation (e.g. Khan Academy, Duolingo). The deemphasis on SAT is also somewhat strange. What about AMC exams, does anyone know how valuable they are for college admissions? How about brilliant.org or Coursera evaluations? Are they accredited?

I am fully aware of the fact that these things keep changing. Colleges keep changing their documentation about requirements from independent high schoolers. I just wanted to gather various perspectives so that we can be better informed.

 

[gwnorth]

I don't know what it means these days to take an allegedly college-level course in some subjects with previous zero or 1 yr high-school level exposure.

What it means is that certain AP courses are not universal college-level courses and as a result not all colleges, especially the more selective admissions ones, accept all APs for transfer credit. Some AP courses that are commonly viewed as AP "light' and are taken by freshman and sophomores include Human Geography, Enviroscience, Psychology, European History and World History. For core science (Bio/Chem/Physics) and math (Calculus) courses though the student needs a sufficient foundation in the subjects and unless they are on an accelerated track, are not usually taken until at least junior year. One exception being potentially AP Computer Science and I understand a new pre-Calculus AP course has just been added.

OP another alternative is to look into IB courses as, while generally considered to be of equal rigour to AP courses, are often taught over a 2 course sequence (SL and HL) spreading out the material more (and only the HL portion is considered for transfer credit). Additionally an excellent research resource I would recommend is College Confidential as there are many very knowledgeable posters there who are familiar with the various entrance requirements of US colleges, including the UCs, who may be able to guide you.

 

[berkeman]

But my daughter wants to more seriously pursue her sport interest and will try to secure a sport-based admission. However, that's a challenging proposition as I know that the competition there is even more stiff.

Others will be of more help, but I was a bit confused about this part. If she is mainly pursuing a sport-based admission, then her academic record is of secondary importance, no? Or are you wanting her to pursue the academic-track as a Plan-B to her sports-track? I'm pretty sure that most athletes attending college on sports scholarships only had average academic records when being accepted (not counting outliers like Stanford, etc...).

 

[CrysPhys]

What it means is that certain AP courses are not universal college-level courses and as a result not all colleges, especially the more selective admissions ones, accept all APs for transfer credit. Some AP courses that are commonly viewed as AP "light' and are taken by freshman and sophomores include Human Geography, Enviroscience, Psychology, European History and World History. For core science (Bio/Chem/Physics) and math (Calculus) courses though the student needs a sufficient foundation in the subjects and unless they are on an accelerated track, are not usually taken until at least junior year. One exception being potentially AP Computer Science and I understand a new pre-Calculus AP course has just been added.

Thanks for the explanation. In my opinion, that's a terrible development. So, the College Board is claiming that for humanities and soft science subjects, middle school or junior high is sufficient foundation for a college-level course.

 

[Vanadium 50]

most athletes attending college on sports scholarships only had average academic records

I am not sure how true this is. Yes, we've all seen illiterate football and basketball ("Basset-ball", as if it is played with low-slung big-eared dogs) but I don't know how far this extends into women's sports in general and the daughter's sport in particular. And athletic directors have figured out that they can get a good average GPA when they average in some students with A's into the mix of those who take 2 hours to watch 60 Minutes.

A few years back, the biggest battle in women's swimming was MIT vs. Coast Guard, neither academic slouches.

I also read this as not so much that the daughter would study less, but that she would have freedom to study at different times. For instance, if it's a fall sport, she might take a lighter than average courseload in Fall and a heavier than average one in Spring.

 

[Vanadium 50]

that's a terrible development.

Well for whom?

IMO, AP used to be at more or less the level of a state flagship, and the numeric grades corresponded more or less to letter grades. I would say that today it is at the level of a community college, and the scores have substantial grade inflation.

But the CB makes its money by selling tests. Further, the parents of little Boopsie are happier now that Boopsie took eleventy-two APs. And fact it, Boopsie was never getting into Stanvard anyway, so what's the harm? High schools have rebranded their honors classes as "AP", their regular classes as "honors" and their remedial classes as "regular", and again the parents are delighted.

What's tne problem? The CB makes money, the parents are happy to give it to them, middle-of-the-road students might finish college incrementally faster, Who loses? Maybe thiose who are Stanvard-bound, but they'll turn out OK anyway.

 

[berkeman]

A few years back, the biggest battle in women's swimming was MIT vs. Coast Guard, neither academic slouches.

Yikes, how many years back? I don't think I've ever seen either of those teams in the national championships.

https://www.ncaa.com/history/swimming-women/d1

 

[KedarMhaswade]

Others will be of more help, but I was a bit confused about this part. If she is mainly pursuing a sport-based admission, then her academic record is of secondary importance, no? Or are you wanting her to pursue the academic-track as a Plan-B to her sports-track? I'm pretty sure that most athletes attending college on sports scholarships only had average academic records when being accepted (not counting outliers like Stanford, etc...).

Sorry for the confusion.

In my understanding the sports scholarships to a college (I called it sport-based admission which may not be a vernacular term) is really difficult. I have also heard that colleges do what is called "scouting" wherein sports personnel at the colleges try to catch the athletes young at competitions. After all, colleges need athletes to represent them in respective intercollegiate competitions. So, I agree with what you say that, in general, the academic careers of such athletes are somewhat secondary (although that need not be the case).

Since we have about three and a half years before she starts applying to colleges, I want a fallback plan. If she is injured at the worst time and a sports scholarship were not to come (which is very likely), I don't want it to be the end of the road (someone has said, "In America, it's either Yale or McDonald's :-|).

In this case, the athlete is also a hardworking student who is reasonably interested in math and science (intelligent, but perhaps not exceptionally bright, and I don't want to judge really) and I am trying to find how she can best retain the joy of learning interesting things with good prospects of getting into a decent college.

In a way, I want what Goodhart proposed (cf. Goodhart's Law). I thought the so-called "SAT subject tests" were a good way to do establish that. However the whole deemphasis of SAT and a demise of SAT subject tests have made things difficult for independent learners. It feels as if you must go through a traditional high school and get decent grades to show on your transcripts (the joy of learning something in a relaxed, flexible environment is somewhat optional!).

 

[KedarMhaswade]

I don't have a good answer, but I think you need to think about assessing sooner rather than later.

Absolutely. Any non-helicopter parent would do the same :-). I just want us to be better informed.

 

[KedarMhaswade]

Well for whom?

IMO, AP used to be at more or less the level of a state flagship, and the numeric grades corresponded more or less to letter grades. I would say that today it is at the level of a community college, and the scores have substantial grade inflation.

But the CB makes its money by selling tests. Further, the parents of little Boopsie are happier now that Boopsie took eleventy-two APs. And fact it, Boopsie was never getting into Stanvard anyway, so what's the harm? High schools have rebranded their honors classes as "AP", their regular classes as "honors" and their remedial classes as "regular", and again the parents are delighted.

What's tne problem? The CB makes money, the parents are happy to give it to them, middle-of-the-road students might finish college incrementally faster, Who loses? Maybe thiose who are Stanvard-bound, but they'll turn out OK anyway.

This is a hilarious take on a serious matter! There's also another actor, the so-called Counsellor. I respect good counsellors, but I know many parents for whom the relationships with counsellors just did not work (mainly because they didn't help their Boopsies to get to the college they dreamed of).

22 AP exams in 4 years? That's just insane. Who in their right minds counsel (for hefty money) young minds to do that many? And the joy of learning something -- ooh that goes for a toss and nobody cares.

"Stanvard wants you to take APs for A, B, M, and X -- so go take them, little Boopsie!" (and get a 5 in them, you know.)

 

[CrysPhys]

Yikes, how many years back? I don't think I've ever seen either of those teams in the national championships.

https://www.ncaa.com/history/swimming-women/d1

MIT and Coast Guard Academy both compete in NCAA Div III. But neither school has won a national championship in women's swimming there, either:

https://www.ncaa.com/history/swimming-women/d3

 

[CrysPhys]

Well for whom?

IMO, AP used to be at more or less the level of a state flagship, and the numeric grades corresponded more or less to letter grades. I would say that today it is at the level of a community college, and the scores have substantial grade inflation.

But the CB makes its money by selling tests. Further, the parents of little Boopsie are happier now that Boopsie took eleventy-two APs. And fact it, Boopsie was never getting into Stanvard anyway, so what's the harm? High schools have rebranded their honors classes as "AP", their regular classes as "honors" and their remedial classes as "regular", and again the parents are delighted.

What's tne problem? The CB makes money, the parents are happy to give it to them, middle-of-the-road students might finish college incrementally faster, Who loses? Maybe thiose who are Stanvard-bound, but they'll turn out OK anyway.

I guess that's just a few steps away from diploma mills in which a student can buy (err ... I mean earn) college credits for "life experience".

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you want to argue Slippery Slope, go ahead. If you want to argue a general decline of college standards,you can argue that. But if you go down that path, the trend in AP of more and easier subjects is a symptom, not a cause.

And is the endpoint so bad? These are turning into national subject tests for high school. Is that such a bad thing?

Colleges already give credit for Intermediate Algebra and Trig. (And PF found one a few years back that gave credit for pre-Algebra) Why shouldn't there by an AP Trig? It would solve the OPs problem of assessment.

 

[gwnorth]

Thanks for the explanation. In my opinion, that's a terrible development. So, the College Board is claiming that for humanities and soft science subjects, middle school or junior high is sufficient foundation for a college-level course.

Non-selective community college courses, but yes apparently.

My son did a selective test-in AP magnate program here in Canada for high school. The program started in grade 9 with pre-AP and accelerated the curriculum in the core courses so that they completed the full high school curriculum by the end of grade 11 (4 years in 3). Then they took AP's in grade 12. He chose to take AP Calc AB, AP Physics I, and AP Chem. The university he ended up attending does not award transfer credit for AP courses required for the major so he still had to take the equivalent first year courses. He said that the curriculum for the AP courses he took covered about 3/4 of the 1st semester university equivalents. His high school didn't offer AP Calc BC, AP Physics II, or either of the two AP Physics C's (Calculus based Physics), so it is possible they would have been better matches.

In either case your mileage may vary as to whether or not many of the AP courses are in fact college equivalent.