Should Insulting Emojis be Discouraged in Communication Guidelines?

[Jarvis323]

Some people use the sad face emoji as a way to insult people. I know it can be ambiguous. And maybe sometimes a person does legitemately feel sorrow that another person is unintelligent, wrong about something, or holds a view they disagree with. But it comes across as a loophole that allows one to communicate that they think someone is pathetic. The laughing emoji can similarly be used to communicate insult. Should this be discouraged in the guidelines at least?

 

[berkeman]

Some people use the sad face emoji as a way to insult people. I know it can be ambiguous. And maybe sometimes a person does legitemately feel sorrow that another person is unintelligent, wrong about something, or holds a view they disagree with. But it comes across as a loophole that allows one to communicate that they think someone is pathetic. The laughing emoji can similarly be used to communicate insult. Should this be discouraged in the guidelines at least?

No, the "skeptical" emoji is meant to be mildly insulting or at least a wake-up call (see your OP above). The "sad" emoji is most often used in sincere situations, IMO. Can you link to some example posts?

 

[Jarvis323]

I don't want to point fingers.

I sad faced your argument just as a way to demonstrate my point. What does a sad face contribute in such a context?

 

[phinds]

I sad faced your argument just as a way to demonstrate my point. What does a sad face contribute in such a context?

It means you are saddened by his reply. That's valid. So is my liking his reply. You want to stifle differing points of view?

 

[BillTre]

I sad faced your argument just as a way to demonstrate my point. What does a sad face contribute in such a context?

You used it in an unusual situation.
If someone died recently a sad face would be entirely understandable.

I use the skeptical emoji for when I am skeptical or questioning of something in a post.

Of course both of these are tools of communication and can be used for different purposes.
With the great power of emojis, comes great responsibility in its use (just like a lot of things).

 

[Frabjous]

I’ve used the sad face for sad posts and to show disagreement.
I have only used the laughing face to show joy.
If memory serves, the first 5 emojis add to your “like“ count, and the last two do not.

A like can also be an insult if it is used to support someone disagreeing with you.

 

[Jarvis323]

I’ve used the sad face for sad posts and to show disagreement.
I have only used the laughing face to show mirth.
If memory serves, the first 5 emojis add to your like count, and the last two do not.

I think it can be unpleasant for the recipient of the sad face emoji in certain contexts, like in a debate or technical discussion. There is an ambiguity about it that leaves a person unable to tell what is meant, but a feeling they have been insulted. Maybe it also depends on culture. In some cultures, it is a common insult to call someone sad, or sorry, which is synonymous with pathetic in that context, and can be an especially hurtful insult.

 

[berkeman]

I sad faced your argument just as a way to demonstrate my point. What does a sad face contribute in such a context?

I received a couple sad faces to my OP about increased maternal mortality during the pandemic, which is totally appropriate. It made me sad as well. Most of the skeptical emojis I get to my Mentor-type posts are because the poster has been called out for some rules violation, and either they or some sympathetic other poster/member don't like that. It's all good.

 

[Jarvis323]

I received a couple sad faces to my OP about increased maternal mortality during the pandemic, which is totally appropriate. It made me sad as well. Most of the skeptical emojis I get to my Mentor-type posts are because the poster has been called out for some rules violation, and either they or some sympathetic other poster/member don't like that. It's all good.

In that context it is totally fine. I just question using it as a way to communicate that you think someone, or someone's post, is pitiful or pathetic.

I'm not meaning to accuse people of doing this deliberately or of having malice. People might not even know how the person on the other end interprets it or feels in response. But it is just a thought to consider.

 

[dlgoff]

Now I'm afraid to even use emojis.

 

[strangerep]

Afair, I've only received the "skeptical" emoji for a technical post just once. But the other person did not follow up with a more communicative response explaining why he was skeptical or what he thought was wrong with my post. I found this lack of detailed reply more frustrating than the mere use of the emoji.

 

[Frabjous]

How would you show disagreement? To me, the skeptical is more of a “you did not make your point”

 

[russ_watters]

It's notable that we don't have a "dislike" button here. The negative or otherwise non-positive emojis are meant to have a little more thought behind them than that.

 

[strangerep]

How would you show disagreement? To me, the skeptical is more of a “you did not make your point”

I've never interpreted the "skeptical" emoji in that way, which I guess shows how ambiguous it can be.

In the case you describe, a quick response post asking either for a reference or explicit computation would be less antisocial and a more constructively communicative way to disagree.

 

[Jarvis323]

How would you show disagreement? To me, the skeptical is more of a “you did not make your point”

I think written responses work the best. In general, I don't think emojis are a very effective way to communicate. I understand the use of the skeptical face emoji to express doubt and am open to the idea that it serves a useful purpose. Although I think it is debatable whether PF is better with it than without it. Besides the ambiguity, I feel it sometimes could have the potential to lend to groupthink.

groupthink, mode of thinking in which individual members of small cohesive groups tend to accept a viewpoint or conclusion that represents a perceived group consensus, whether or not the group members believe it to be valid, correct, or optimal. Groupthink reduces the efficiency of collective problem solving within such groups.

https://www.britannica.com/science/groupthink

Personally, I struggle though with emojis and systems of social credit, because it messes with my mind as its use or lack of use sends all kinds of ambiguous signals. If I like one person's posts but not another's, do they think I don't like them? Should I like most everything? Should I like nothing? And then I feel I notice effects and patterns emerge based on how one uses the system. So you might feel then you should be strategic about how you use the emojis to be socially successful. And I feel a little overwhelmed by it all. So I've personally disabled notifications for reactions to my posts, and make it a sort of policy to minimally use emojis, even when I like something.

 

[russ_watters]

I think written responses work the best.

Sure. But if I'm short on time or someone else has made a good point or if I just have a simplistic opinion about the OP, the emojis get the job done quickly.

 

[mfb]

Everything that can be expressed with an emoji can also be expressed in a text reply, which has far more options beyond that.
If someone abuses the system we can take action.

By the way: You can check which reactions you got (by type) https://www.physicsforums.com/account/reactions. Skeptical and sad are about 0.1% each in my case, "sad" reactions were generally in response to bad news (earthquakes, COVID deaths, spaceflight accidents, ...), "skeptical" is more varied (random example).

 

[Algr]

No, the "skeptical" emoji is meant to be mildly insulting or at least a wake-up call (see your OP above).

For a long time I misunderstood that graphic to mean "Hmmm... You've given me something to think about."

Just because a reply is in text doesn't mean it will be any more illuminating than an emoji. I don't think I've ever been bothered by an emoji response.

 

[russ_watters]

Rather than communication about the content of posts, I sometimes feel the emojis are primarily expressing social dynamics. At least it is my perception that people tend to like or dislike posts based on the person who made it and their relationship.

IMO, this is a mistake/inaccurate. Trust me, I've had plenty of negative interactions on PF and I don't know where I stand socially with some people (I cringe to think how we'd start an interaction if we ever bumped into each other in person), but I see very little correlation between that and the emojis or post responses for that matter*. One thing to note about PF and many of the senior members is that we have an adult/professional membership. That means that in our interactions on PF, the professional response is much more important than the social one. Heck, I doubt I'm alone in that petty social games/competitions bore/exasperate/irritate me and in many cases I've forgotten who or why I'm supposed to have beef with. It's just not why we are here.

*Ok, yeah, I see a handful of what look like grudges. But only a handful.

 

[symbolipoint]

Some people use the sad face emoji as a way to insult people. I know it can be ambiguous. And maybe sometimes a person does legitemately feel sorrow that another person is unintelligent, wrong about something, or holds a view they disagree with. But it comes across as a loophole that allows one to communicate that they think someone is pathetic. The laughing emoji can similarly be used to communicate insult. Should this be discouraged in the guidelines at least?

I may on occasion pick the "skeptical" emoji if I either do not understand or I disagree with somebody although at times I might still think some small bit of credit might be deserved - or not.

As you stated, emojis are ambiguous. They can sometimes be frustrating or irritating if not enough text expression is included. When at times I see an emoji without much else to explain it, I have the reaction of "what in &%#$ are you saying?", or a reaction of "What the *#$%@ do you mean?"

 

[Hornbein]

A like can also be an insult if it is used to support someone disagreeing with you.

I've had that done to and liked it. Should I have felt insulted?

 

[Rive]

Some people use the sad face emoji as a way to insult people

Sometimes some posts are indeed rewarded with a kind of 'it's sad that you could came up with something like that' response and it may be considered as an insult, but in my opinion it's even less of an insult than being a starting point for a nomination in the one-liners thread.

In real life not all opinions are equal: especially if it's about science or some other result-oriented topic.
Some people might consider that as an insult too, but that won't change a thing.
Being sad over such thing is still a very mild and not really confrontative reaction.
Well, most cases it's far milder than what you would get IRL.
If even this level of emotional opposition is a problem then best would be to just shut down and forget the whole internet thing, because it's not meant for people...

 

[Algr]

Ultimately I think OP is putting too much weight and importance to the Emojis. They are meant to prevent an idea from just being met with silence when no one feels strongly about it one way or the other. Someone with a more detailed opinion or time to process the information can add text if they want too, but more rules to remember are just going to cause problems when people don’t agree on what those rules mean.

 

[Jarvis323]

Ultimately I think OP is putting too much weight and importance to the Emojis. They are meant to prevent an idea from just being met with silence when no one feels strongly about it one way or the other. Someone with a more detailed opinion or time to process the information can add text if they want too, but more rules to remember are just going to cause problems when people don’t agree on what those rules mean.

The thread has veered off course. The OP was about using emojis for insulting people.

 

[Algr]

The thread has veered off course. The OP was about using emojis for insulting people.

I disagree. The resolution suggested in the first post was directly addressed in mine.

 

[Jarvis323]

...They are meant to prevent an idea from just being met with silence when no one feels strongly about it one way or the other. Someone with a more detailed opinion or time to process the information can add text if they want too,

This is a much different use case than the one I pointed out.

but more rules to remember are just going to cause problems when people don’t agree on what those rules mean.

I disagree. The resolution suggested in the first post was directly addressed in mine.

I guess you address the issue of whether emojis should have rules or guidelines in general. Mainly I wanted to discuss the practice of using emojis to insult people. I did ask whether it should be at least discouraged in the guidelines. So I guess you did touch on the topic a little bit.

 

[Algr]

:: Prances around doing a victory dance. ::

 

[malawi_glenn]

So many snowflakes nowadays, you can't even leave your appartment without insulting somebody it seems.

Get rid of all emojies is my suggestion - then people won't get offended by them.

 

[anorlunda]

I’ve used the sad face for sad posts and to show disagreement.

Yes, but it can also express disappointment in learning an unpleasant truth. All emojis can be interpreted multiple ways. The world would probably be better off without them.

 

[Jarvis323]

Sometimes some posts are indeed rewarded with a kind of 'it's sad that you could came up with something like that'

One question I guess is whether it would be fine to just say that. Say someone asked a "stupid question". Would it be appropriate to respond with, "It's sad that you are asking this.", or "What a pathetic question."? Or something of that nature? In the case of the emoji it is unclear what the intended message was, but those are the kinds of interpretations one might get if they ask an honest question about physics and get nothing but a sad face emoji in response.

I think it is a gray area currently and it doesn't seem to be explicitly discouraged to use the emoji in this fashion, but the more or less equivalent message written in text could potentially get a person banned. Anyways, I just thought there is some food for thought on this issue.

 

[Rive]

Get rid of all emojies is my suggestion - then people won't get offended by them.

One question I guess is whether it would be fine to just say that.

Well, some cases I'm glad there is an ambiguous, short way to express an opinion - lest I would be tempted to explain it myself, with all the nasty parts detailed.

I don't think this phenomenon requires this much thought and especially does not requires rules.
The really offensive emojies are already got rid of: the ambiguity of the rest is just life.

 

[Jarvis323]

Well, some cases I'm glad there is an ambiguous, short way to express an opinion - lest I would be tempted to explain it myself, with all the nasty parts detailed.

I don't think this phenomenon requires this much thought and especially does not requires rules.
The really offensive emojies are already got rid of: the ambiguity of the rest is just life.

I disagree, as I do think it should be discouraged to intentionally insult someone (even if you are doing it in a somewhat cryptic way), if not having a rule against it, because I think it would help promote civil discourse and a healthy and welcoming environment.

But I see where you are coming from and appreciate that you responded to my question.

 

[pinball1970]

I received a couple sad faces to my OP about increased maternal mortality during the pandemic, which is totally appropriate. It made me sad as well. Most of the skeptical emojis I get to my Mentor-type posts are because the poster has been called out for some rules violation, and either they or some sympathetic other poster/member don't like that. It's all good.

Yes I post “sad” or “wow” all the time, usually to Covid and a lot in the Ukraine thread.
“Sad” for ‘that is terrible’ or “wow” for ‘that is awful.’
I received a skeptical recently, I was not impressed.

 

[Rive]

... healthy ... environment.

Part of a healthy environment is about experiencing all common emotions, responses and interactions of life.
You can tune it down to keep things in check, but if you overdo it then the result is anything but healthy.

Physics Forum is already so tuned down that it's almost flirting with self-mutilation.
It's still OK, considering that PF also works as a kind of refuge for many, but still, further down on that way: just when should people start considering the psychological harm done by telling the next random crackpot that he's a crackpot?

 

[Algr]

“wow” for ‘that is awful.’

Wow is a bad thing? There is a second emoji I have misunderstood. Can someone explain human emotions to me?

Get rid of all emojies is my suggestion - then people won't get offended by them.

I'm offended by the letter P.

 

[pinball1970]

Wow is a bad thing? There is a second emoji I have misunderstood. Can someone explain human emotions to me?I'm offended by the letter P.

No it's not bad. It is a reaction on a sad or shocking story.

 

[Mondayman]

I think the laughter emoji would come across as more insulting than the skeptical or sad one.

People also use emojis differently. Me and most friends greet each other by flipping each other the bird, and use that emoji often in text.

 

[BillTre]

flipping each other the bird

I guess that's a happy bird, not an angry bird.

 

[malawi_glenn]

Can someone explain human emotions to me?

Don't basically all persons involved in physics and math some kind of ADD? Hence bad at understanding and interpret social codes? I for sure do, I ask a question in one thread about a persons credentials and I was told it was totally inapproriate... The world was easier before internet...

 

[Vanadium 50]

Al;l I can say is

 

[russ_watters]

Don't basically all persons involved in physics and math some kind of ADD? Hence bad at understanding and interpret social codes?

1. No.
2. That's not what ADD is.

I for sure do, I ask a question in one thread about a persons credentials and I was told it was totally inapproriate... The world was easier before internet...

That has nothing to do with emotion/social cues, it's an issue of misunderstanding the forum mission. We don't want credentials to be required or be highly visible because we want the forum to be open to all comers, without such an apparent barrier to entry/participation.

 

[malawi_glenn]

That's not what ADD is.

Sorry, I meant Aspergers (ASD)

 

[russ_watters]

Sorry, I meant Aspergers (ASD)

Still no.

 

[Algr]

The first mission of any forum needs to be creating a place where people with different ideas and views can share them respectfully, and learn from one another. If you don’t have that, no other mission will succeed, other then groupthink.

Those with badges and special positions on the forum must set the tone of civility in their own words and actions before criticizing others.

 

[Hornbein]

Wow is a bad thing? There is a second emoji I have misunderstood. Can someone explain human emotions to me?I'm offended by the letter P.

When I was teaching a statistics class the students would snicker when I mentioned p. It was a prestigious university but I had a discipline problem. Eventually in a calm manner I politely told them they were disrupting my class and to cram it. They did.

 

[symbolipoint]

When I was teaching a statistics class the students would snicker when I mentioned p. It was a prestigious university but I had a discipline problem. Eventually in a calm manner I politely told them they were disrupting my class and to cram it. They did.

My reaction emoji chosen was "Wow", because, one does not expect to find the immaturity you describe happening in a university Mathematics course. Such substandard classroom behavior from students might be more to occur in some high school classes - and not even in community colleges.

 

[pinball1970]

My reaction emoji chosen was "Wow", because, one does not expect to find the immaturity you describe happening in a university Mathematics course. Such substandard classroom behavior from students might be more to occur in some high school classes - and not even in community colleges.

Yes. The ethos after leaving school for college (16 years old in the UK) was that we wanted to be there so shut up and listen.
I cannot remember many discipline issues after 16.
I do remember an Ecology lecturer losing it at a couple of students then going completely ape sh*t at the class.
All they were doing was discussing a point, I could hear them but they were obviously talking quietly and respectfully so as not to disturb anything.
He shouted at them then us and asked if we wanted to be there, he also asked if we thought the class / him were a waste of time.
We all kind of talked him down collectively and apologized whilst trying to work out whether he was either drunk, or something else.
Trouble at work or at home possibly looking back to snap like that.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

Personally, I struggle though with emojis and systems of social credit, because it messes with my mind as its use or lack of use sends all kinds of ambiguous signals. If I like one person's posts but not another's, do they think I don't like them? Should I like most everything? Should I like nothing? And then I feel I notice effects and patterns emerge based on how one uses the system. So you might feel then you should be strategic about how you use the emojis to be socially successful. And I feel a little overwhelmed by it all. So I've personally disabled notifications for reactions to my posts, and make it a sort of policy to minimally use emojis, even when I like something.

You may be more empathetic than others, @Jarvis323, leading to more deliberation on social cues than might be typical. I've recently come across this dimension within my team, and me being more bull in a china shop, I have had to stop and think my words - and emjois on Teams - through for the unintended impact they can convey.

@russ_watters, could an option for PF users to globally disable emojis on their posts be a consideration?

 

[pinball1970]

You may be more empathetic than others, @Jarvis323, leading to more deliberation on social cues than might be typical. I've recently come across this dimension within my team, and me being more bull in a china shop, I have had to stop and think my words - and emjois on Teams - through for the unintended impact they can convey.

@russ_watters, could an option for PF users to globally disable emojis on their posts be a consideration?

Most of the responses are positive and there are reaction points awarded too.
If I am reading a QM thread and Vanhees, Demystifier Peter et al up votes or puts skeptical against a particular post then I try and work out what is going on. You can get pointers and recognize a previous argument.

If you get a skeptical, then you get an indication that there could be a difficulty in your reasoning. Read back see where the problem is.
Or disagree and argue the point.

 

[Jarvis323]

You may be more empathetic than others, @Jarvis323, leading to more deliberation on social cues than might be typical. I've recently come across this dimension within my team, and me being more bull in a china shop, I have had to stop and think my words - and emjois on Teams - through for the unintended impact they can convey.

@russ_watters, could an option for PF users to globally disable emojis on their posts be a consideration?

I don't mind the emojis. When pushed to give my opinion, I will just point out that I personally don't like to pay much attention to them. It can be distracting getting notifications whenever someone reacted to something you wrote. It changes the way you engage.

As an intellectual perspective, I do think they lend to group think to some extent, and on rare occasions create a level of silliness that can detract from a physics discussion.

But in this thread I just wanted to bring to light the practice of using emojis deliberately as a means of insulting a person. I wasn't talking about using a skeptical face, or an emoji meant to show disagreement, or a wow face. I think now that people probably do use the skeptical emoji in place of a written insult, and that must be why so many people shifted the discussion to the skeptical face. I hadn't actually even thought of that. Again, I am talking about sad facing something you think is dumb, and that type of thing.

I didn't bring this up because of its affect on me. I brought it up because I thought now is a good time to give some honest feedback that could potentially make PF a better place.