News Should Mexicans Focus on Improving Mexico Instead of Immigrating Illegally?

[gravenewworld]

Illegal immigrants spit in the face of everyone who has ever entered this country legally. Why should they be able to cut ahead of the line in front of everyone else? What makes them so special that they should be granted automatic citizenship?

 

[deckart]

The best way to reduce immigration is to fight poverty.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3648346

It is the poverty of Mexico. That isn't our fight. We have enough battles as it is. Most of the world agrees that we meddle in other countries affairs enough right now.

 

[Art]

Look at the numbers--I just stated that 2,000 try to cross through Tucson alone each day.

Doesn't this number seem a little strange to you? Is it likely the authorities stood and counted them over a period of time to arrive at this figure without apprehending them? Personally I'd take this with a large pinch of salt.

Go look at other numbers as well, for example currently 1 in 20 workers are illegal with birth rates to match. No, I do not agree that legal immigration should be increased indiscriminately to match all those who want to live in the U.S. It simply cannot be sustained, and why there are caps, and to be fair, why there are quotas so people from other parts of the world can come here too.

This paragraph seems to be full of contradictions. To try and piece it together first you say 'No you are not in favour of indiscriminate immigration' yet nobody has suggested this should be the case, then you are saying stop illegal immigration, do not replace it with legal immigration but allow more people from other countries to enter America legally??
You will also note that if your figures are correct that 1 in 20 workers are illegal and you throw them out without replacing them with legal immigrants there will be a massive shortfall in the workforce.

For seasonal work, I feel migrant workers are a great source of labor, but it needs to be monitored and wages need to be fair.

Allowing in seasonal workers doesn't address the problems caused by the declining birthrate or allow for America to collect on it's investment in migrants health and education. Why do you see a problem in granting people permanent residency provided they go through the screening process for health, crime etc..

Have you ever flown coast to coast in America and looked out the window. Most of America is completely empty. States like Wyoming have tiny populations (494,000) so it's not as if overcrowding is an issue which is why I am struggling to see what the issue is??

Bottom line, anything Bush favors makes me wary. He acts so sympathetic to these people "who want to feed their family" yet look how he and his family behaved toward our own citizens in New Orleans. It is BS just like WMD was not the real reason for the invasion of Iraq. Vicente Fox has been running our borders since Bush became president, and Bush has enabled Fox in order to increase his own base.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/nadler200412080811.asp

Obviously Bush is interested in pandering to big business who are looking for more workers, preferably as cheaply as possible but even if his motives are impure it does't mean the end result is totally wrong.

In the absence of immigration will you explain how you see America continuing it's economic development and social support system given the very low and still declining birthrate resulting in an ever worsening dependancy ratio.

To summarise my opinion -

Employment laws need to be radically overhauled. Employers should be severely punished if they employ illegal workers without due dilligence. They should also have to pay immigrants the same rate of pay as an american born citizen would receive for doing the same job.

Illegal immigration should be eliminated mainly through pressure on employers as detailed above and also through greater policing including spot checks with perhaps financial penalties on their country of origin to cover the cost of repatriation and so encourage foreign gov'ts cooperation in eliminating the problem

Official quotas need to be increased to match economic demand. Like it or not America NEEDS a high level of immigrants to enable it's continued economic growth and to provide children as the workers of the future. Candidate immigrants should be screened for health, criminal backgrouns etc..

Permanent residency visas should be greatly increased. Bringing in guest workers does little for them and even less for America in the longterm. Permanent residency gives people a stake and therefore a pride in the country. The first few years should be probationary and misbehaviour responded to with revocation of their visa and expulsion.

Immigrants should be directed to states that require their labour. One of the key problems IMO with immigration is that certain areas such as the border states end up with a vastly disproportionate amount of newly arrived immigrants living in their locale at levels that cannot be intergrated into the existing community. Eliminating illegal immigration would solve a lot of this problem but nevertheless there should be a national plan to determine where immigrants should be assigned at least initially.

I don't really see what is particularly controversial about any of these suggestions as it addresses all of the issues raised by the anti-immigration lobby without the need to adopt what would on the surface appear to be racist policies?

 

[Gokul43201]

And as stated above, for jobs where migrant labor really is needed, these people can apply for guest worker visas.

What exactly is a "guest worker visa". Is it different from the current H1 visa that permits foreign nationals from working here ?

If it isn't, I can't see how this will be implementable (in its present form). A large chunk of the illegal immigrant population works on some John Smith's farm in So Cal (or wherever). To apply for an H1 visa, Mr. Juarez will have to submit to the US High Commission in Mexico (in addition to other things) a letter from Mr. Smith stating that Mr. Juarez's particular skills make him unique and this set of skills have not been found amongst the Americans interviewed for the position.

How is Mr. Juarez to pull off such a scam ?

 

[rachmaninoff2]

Immigrants should be directed to states that require their labour. One of the key problems IMO with immigration is that certain areas such as the border states end up with a vastly disproportionate amount of newly arrived immigrants living in their locale at levels that cannot be intergrated into the existing community. Eliminating illegal immigration would solve a lot of this problem but nevertheless there should be a national plan to determine where immigrants should be assigned at least initially.

Since when does our government tell people where to live and where to work? Are we communists?

 

[Evo]

What exactly is a "guest worker visa". Is it different from the current H1 visa that permits foreign nationals from working here ?

If it isn't, I can't see how this will be implementable (in its present form). A large chunk of the illegal immigrant population works on some John Smith's farm in So Cal (or wherever). To apply for an H1 visa, Mr. Juarez will have to submit to the US High Commission in Mexico (in addition to other things) a letter from Mr. Smith stating that Mr. Juarez's particular skills make him unique and this set of skills have not been found amongst the Americans interviewed for the position.

How is Mr. Juarez to pull off such a scam ?

I don't think people realize what the criteria is for getting work visas. I didn't until a friend of mine from Italy wanted to come over. It's tough.

 

[edward]

Mexicans are not about to apply for any kind of visa's. They just keep coming. 42 of them were found piled on top of each other and locked in a horse trailer yesterday, the smuggler who brought them to the south side of Tucson simply took the $1000 per head he had charged them, unhitched the trailer and left it along the side of the road.

I know the numbers that are coming through the Tucson sector. It averages 1000 per day caught and an estimated 1000 per day who get away. Every time there is talk of an amnesty the numbers explode. But Border patrol agents I have talked to feel the number that is detained is more like 15 to 20 percent rather than 50 percent.

A lot of them stay in Souther AZ to be close to home. According to the Governors office, one in 12 people in Southern AZ is an illegal.

How Rapists Prey on Vulnerable Border Crossers
By Jerry Seper, The Washington Times, Dateline Jacumba, California, September 21, 2005
A growing number of women who illegally cross the southern U.S. border with Mexico are being raped by the same human smugglers who charge them $1,500 to $2,000 for safe passage. They find they have no legal recourse because they themselves seek to enter the United States illegally.
Seper writes: "U.S. authorities said some Mexican border police have taken part in the violence, often targeting migrants headed to the United States from central and South America."
The rapes are part of a growing pattern of violence on the U.S. southern border. There are more assaults and robberies of illegals, and there has been a fivefold increase in attacks on Border Patrol agents.

Illegals Dying at Record Rate in Arizona Desert
By Dennis Wagner, USA Today, August 19, 2005
Two hundred and one illegal immigrants have died along Arizona's 389-mile border with Mexico -- a new, tragic high for the state.
This past July was the third-hottest on record for Arizona. Nonetheless, the state's brutal deserts have become more attractive to human smugglers since border controls got tougher in California and Texas.
Wagner writes: "Many from Mexico's interior cannot comprehend the desert, where summer temperatures reach 115 or higher. Despite Spanish-language media campaigns warning of death, they are spurred by dreams of employment -- and by the knowledge that millions have made it before them."
Since October 1, 2004, U.S. Border Patrol agents have caught more than Illegals Dying at Record Rate in Arizona Desert
By Dennis Wagner, USA Today, August 19, 2005
Two hundred and one illegal immigrants have died along Arizona's 389-mile border with Mexico -- a new, tragic high for the state.
This past July was the third-hottest on record for Arizona. Nonetheless, the state's brutal deserts have become more attractive to human smugglers since border controls got tougher in California and Texas.
Wagner writes: "Many from Mexico's interior cannot comprehend the desert, where summer temperatures reach 115 or higher. Despite Spanish-language media campaigns warning of death, they are spurred by dreams of employment -- and by the knowledge that millions have made it before them."
Since October 1, 2004, U.S. Border Patrol agents have caught more than 500,000 illegal border crossers in Arizona. No one knows how many successfully evaded detection.
Of the bodies found in the desert, about 30 percent are never identified, even though U.S. police and medical examiners take pains to identify them using clothing, fingerprints and DNA samples illegal border crossers in Arizona. No one knows how many successfully evaded detection.
Of the bodies found in the desert, about 30 percent are never identified, even though U.S. police and medical examiners take pains to identify them using clothing, fingerprints and DNA samples

http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_asia_pacific/chinese_human_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/scams_abuse_deaths.html

This current system is unfair for both the illegals and for those of us who are paying for their medical care and social services. Nor are they all humble people looking for work. one in ten has a criminal record. Locally most of them work in an underground economy and do not pay taxes.

Most of the local illegals work in construction, when the current housing boom crashes we are going to be looking at some serious social welfare problems.

This is much more than a simple right or wrong issue.

 

[Art]

Since when does our government tell people where to live and where to work? Are we communists?

Since years ago. To obtain one of the more generally available visas, of the 70 different types available, wouldbe immigrants need to show they have a job lined up to go to. The visa they obtain is specific to that job. I don't think this makes you communists though.

Seems Bush and me finally agree on something

Bush calls for 'civil' immigration debate
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush said Monday that overhauling the nation's immigration laws "is not going to be easy" and warned critics against stoking anti-immigrant feelings by calling them a threat to the nation's identity or a burden to the economy
<snip>
"No one should play on people's fears or try to pit neighbors against each other," Bush said. "No one should pretend that immigrants are threats to America's identity because immigrants have shaped America's identity.

"No one should claim that immigrants are a burden on our economy because the work and enterprise of immigrants helps sustain our economy," the president said. "We should not give into pessimism. If we work together I am confident we can meet our duty to fix our immigration system and deliver a bill that protects our people, upholds our laws and makes our people proud."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-27-immigration_x.htm

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

We need to secure our borders and stop the flood as best we can NOW. The money spent on additional security measures will be worth it.

But ultimately we need to remove incentive. If these people can't get a job once they enter, they will return home. Business must not only collect ID, but must verify that the ID is not fake, and then prosecute those committing fraud. Businesses not abiding by this need to face large fines.

For those who are already here, they need to be screened. If they have a criminal record, contagious disease, are unemployed and/or relying on public services, or can't speak English, they need to be deported immediately. The rest need to do public service (military time will work) if they have committed fraud (used fake ID), pay any back taxes owed, and fined for illegal entry (to help with costs for border security, detention facilities, plane tickets, etc). Then they need to get in line for citizenship, which should move fairly quickly due to original screening. Those who do not come forward willingly will be automatically deported if caught. If these kind of requirements are not made, it will equate to amnesty and send a very wrong message. And once again, the cost to process these people will be worth it--we will pay the piper sooner or later.

And as stated above, for jobs where migrant labor really is needed, these people can apply for guest worker visas. To keep it honest and to prevent wages from being depressed, the businesses hiring them should pay minimum wage.

Tightening border security a good idea. From what I understand the CBP are a bit understaffed though during the Minutemen contraversy there were promises of increasing staff by about 20,000 I think. I'll have to look that up. A wall would be a disasterous proposition though. With the enormity of the undertaking our own government's incompetence would likely be enough to have it well sabatoged but beyond that they will also have to deal with protestors, coyotes, drug runners, and the mexican mafia. The minutemen were just watching and they got shot at a couple times. Here in CA they were attacked several times and I think were forced to abandon their post before they intended to.

As far as the deportations and screenings I'm pretty sure that if such things were to go into action there would be riots and that would be some scary ****. I was in Santa Ana for new years once and the amount of ammo being shot off in celebration was scary enough. Recently the INS made a couple raids to arrest some illegals and people freaked. It was plastered all over the news every where and the latino civil rights community made it sound like the worst thing since Wako.

I don't think that the CA state and city governments would take very nicely to it either...

Supervisor Gerardo Sandoval introduced a resolution Tuesday urging San Francisco law enforcement agencies to ignore federal illegal immigration legislation if the bill now in Congress becomes law...
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/29/BAGUCHVM6J1.DTL

 

[X-43D]

Since when does our government tell people where to live and where to work? Are we communists?

But that is fascism, not really communism.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

But that is fascism, not really communism.

In most 'communist' countries you have to apply with the government to move from one place to another and take a job in another place. If the government says no then you can't go.

 

[X-43D]

In most 'communist' countries you have to apply with the government to move from one place to another and take a job in another place. If the government says no then you can't go.

This is true in any authoritarian or dictatorial state.

 

[SOS2008]

To those who doubt the immensity of the problem on the southern borders of the U.S., I wish you could live some place like Tucson for awhile, and then get back to me about how the numbers are being exaggerated. I was watching footage on the news last night that showed a group of illegals rushing the border (looked like California). In other parts of the world, they would be gunned down. They are running past the check point and no one is stopping them. Fascism my arse.

People say we should just increase legal immigration so these people don't have to sneak across the border. I see it and hear it all the time, and it's a ludicrous solution -- It's equivalent to having no borders and allowing a free for all, which of course is how Mexico wants it to be. In watching interviews on the news, a Mexican professor said the U.S. should allow all these people legal entry and in about 12 years everything would normalize. WTF?! Yes, everything would "normalize" for Mexico, but the U.S. would be in ruins.

In the meantime, I did not say we should not increase caps on legal immigration--just that it can't be made wide open to match demand. First the minimum wage needs to be increased to appropriate levels. Then if an increased need for immigration can be proven (hard data not from a bias source), then increase it to that amount. But increase it in a way fair to people who want to enter from all areas of the world via quotas. A skewed Mexican population, especially the percentages we are seeing in border states, does not constitute a "melting pot" in the American tradition.

Pointing at the large amount of open land in the U.S. always slays me. Here in Arizona there are vast amounts of open land. But, there is no water, and we are already scrambling to accommodate the population growth here. It's the same as saying look at all of Siberia.

In reference to worker visas, some work such as agriculture is seasonal so cannot support a resident year around--and thus how the migrant worker program began. But otherwise, maybe the concept of a guest worker program is not a good idea. At the minimum we should have the same requirements other countries have for citizenship, such as Canada. You say it is tough to get a company to sponsor you? That's the way it is everywhere.

In regard to screening current illegals in the country and fear of riots -- This is why I say this is not immigration but an invasion. Call in the troops if we must. Foreigners cannot be allowed to dictate our laws to us with fear and riots on our soil. We are defending American freedom in Iraq? Riiight.

 

[rachmaninoff2]

This is true in any authoritarian or dictatorial state.

Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently separate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you.

 

[rachmaninoff2]

Since years ago. To obtain one of the more generally available visas, of the 70 different types available, wouldbe immigrants need to show they have a job lined up to go to. The visa they obtain is specific to that job. I don't think this makes you communists though.

That's totally different. They have skills and a PhD, they attract the interests of an employer, then they apply for an H1-B. It's a free contract of employment by both parties. What you're talking about is a federal government getting involved and moving people around, assinging employees to employers, telling people where they can live. That is a communist state.

I'll quote exactly what you said:

Immigrants should be directed to states that require their labour. One of the key problems IMO with immigration is that certain areas such as the border states end up with a vastly disproportionate amount of newly arrived immigrants living in their locale at levels that cannot be intergrated into the existing community. Eliminating illegal immigration would solve a lot of this problem but nevertheless there should be a national plan to determine where immigrants should be assigned at least initially.

 

[Evo]

The answer to the problem of illegal immigrants definitely is "not" to make them all legal and allow anyone to come into the country. There seems to be no pressure on Mexico to stop the mass exodus into the US. Although I feel for the poor people that want to make a better life and are willing to do hard work for it, too many just come across in order to send money back to Mexico. I'm getting tired of seeing the Western Union money transfer to Mexico forms on every customer service counter in town. They're just bleeding the local economy.

 

[rachmaninoff2]

Let me clarify one point many people here misunderstood. The existing 'guest worker' program, the H1-B visa are for skilled workers - many of these are for Ph.D's, M.D.'s, etc. At least in my opinion, these are jobs for which unrestricted, free market competition is very good; I'd hate to have my general physician replaced by some one less 'competitive' just because of their nationalities. The proposed "guest worker" program is in a totally different labor market, the "minimum wage" jobs for unskilled workers. This is a far larger job pool, and at the moment simple economics leads illegal immigrants to be filling it up. The President's program suggests creating a legal process for such large-scale unskilled immigration.

These two things are totally different, and it would be great if no one here confused them from here on out.

-rachmaninoff

 

[ron damon]

Economically, they're contributing plenty. But this is not a matter of economics, but culture.

Human beings are not equal; they're as different from one another as Confucius and Luther, and the civilizations they give rise to consequently reflect the unfathomable distances that exist in the realm of the human spirit.

The limited diffusion and assimilation one can expect of this highly homogeneous and numerically imposing block of people living some hours worth of travel from their homeland, makes this latest wave of immigration different from preceding ones, and most likely will result in the transformation of the areas they colonize into a living space coherent with their cultural and religious characteristics. They will make the southern states part of Mexico again.

People, not geographical borders, make up a nation. When you look at Mexico, do you see a place you want to live in? I don't mean the colorful appeal any foreign land exerts upon one. Do you see yourself settling down and raising a family under the conditions prevalent south of the border?

 

[X-43D]

Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently separate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you.

In fascist states it is the same. The state regulates all corporate activity through chartering and licensing. At least in communist states people are paid according to how hard they work, not so in fascist states.

 

[Art]

That's totally different. They have skills and a PhD, they attract the interests of an employer, then they apply for an H1-B. It's a free contract of employment by both parties. What you're talking about is a federal government getting involved and moving people around, assinging employees to employers, telling people where they can live. That is a communist state.

Just to clarify, no I am not saying that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Have you all heard about the effort for Mexico to reclaim the southern states. Once thought to be a joke, according to the report on Lou Dobbs yesterday, this idea is gaining favor amoung illegal immigrants; who organized a 500,000 person protest in in L.A., in one day.

There is a formal name for this movement but I didn't quite catch it.

As a person who grew up in S. Cal, this is my biggest problem with the illegals: Many don't wan't to be Americans, rather they want America to be Mexico. They don't want to assimilate into our culture, they want to transform our culture into theirs. Never mind that their country sucks so bad that they all want to come here... They want to import their failed system and culture.

Oh yes, time and time again you can see that they believe they are entitled to US land and social programs. I have heard this first hand many times.

 

[Moonbear]

As a person who grew up in S. Cal, this is my biggest problem with the illegals: Many don't wan't to be Americans, rather they want America to be Mexico. They don't want to assimilate into our culture, they want to transform our culture into theirs. Never mind that their country sucks so bad that they all want to come here... They want to import their failed system and culture.

There are also those who don't even want to live here, but come across the border to earn a paycheck to send back to support their family that will stay in Mexico. It just sucks money straight from our economy to support theirs.

Gee, why is nobody up in arms that Canada doesn't allow unskilled U.S. citizens to work in Canada either? When the former lab I worked in moved to Canada, there was no problem obtaining visas for the "highly skilled workers," (i.e., those with Ph.D.s moving for faculty positions), but our technicians and the one administrative assistant that wanted to move and the lab wanted to move with them as well could not obtain visas to work in Canada, because there were not uniquely qualified over Canadian citizens available to do those jobs. I would fully expect the Canadian government to deport any U.S. citizen found to be working or living there illegally back to the U.S. and to list them as ineligible to ever cross the border again. And I don't think it should be any different for anyone entering any country illegally, so don't know why Mexican citizens needs to receive some form of special consideration. They should be treated exactly the same as any citizen of any other country as far as immigration laws are concerned.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There are also those who don't even want to live here, but come across the border to earn a paycheck to send back to support their family that will stay in Mexico. It just sucks money straight from our economy to support theirs.

That's exactly right. We have an 800 billion dollar trade deficit, and then the labor for domestic goods is driven down to third world wages by illegal laborors who receive income that leaves the US.

 

[edward]

That's exactly right. We have an 800 billion dollar trade deficit, and then the labor for domestic goods is driven down to third world wages by illegal laborors who receive income that leaves the US.

I can't figure out how to cut and paste from a PDF document so here is the entire link.
http://www.bearstearns.com/bscportal/pdfs/underground.pdf

The two largest sources of income flowing into Mexico are from, oil sales to the USA, and from money sent back to Mexico by the undocumented workers.

The two figures, in Billions, are running very close. According to the link the USA is also losing $35 billion in unpaid income taxes.

Our schools and hospitals here in Tucson are experiencing a tremendous burden, and yet receive no help from the federal govenment.

There is a very overt but under the radar effort by the Mexican government to assist it's undocumented throngs in the USA.

from the November 29, 2002 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1129/p03s01-usju.html

For illegal immigrants, new mobile ID service
Thriving beneath the radar and above the law, matricula consulars boost the privileges and status of illegal Mexicans.
By Patrik Jonsson | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

WEST COLUMBIA, S.C. - At El Rincon Vaquero trading post here in West Columbia, S.C., votive candles compete with cowboy hats and jars of dark mole for shelf space. The colorful shop is a slice of Mexico in the middle of a rundown neighborhood. But one day this month, El Rincon Vaquero became, through a bit of diplomatic magic, an actual outpost of Mexico.

In an aggressive - some say subversive - new gambit, the Mexican government is sending its deputies through the American countryside, setting up shop in strip malls and schools, and handing out new Mexican ID cards called matricula consulars for $29.

Ten U.S. states now allow the "matricula consulars" to be used as sufficient identification to get drivers licenses and other services.

 

[loseyourname]

Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently separate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you.

Notably, in the Soviet Union, there still existed large populations of Siberian natives that were nomadic reindeer herders, such as the Eveny and Chukchi, that lived and worked as family units. After the revolution, since all private ownership was outlawed, their herds were seized and made state property, and the families were intentionally broken up and people were instead organized into brigades, with men given the herding jobs and women made to work in villages that were set up, because nomadism was no longer allowed either. This, along with the fact that they were killed if they openly practiced their shamanistic religions, destroyed the economic viability of these people, making them completely dependent upon the government bureaucracy. Reading about them today, or watching documentary film footage, can be utterly heartbreaking.

It's amazing how simple-minded the Soviets were at times, as if nothing existed in the world but imperialist capitalism and the glorious "worker's paradise." Like tribal nomads that followed the natural migration patterns of reindeer herds, in which family units owned a few domesticated reindeer that they used to hunt the wild ones, were such imperialistic capitalist pigs that needed to be collectivized.

 

[JamesU]

intill the hurricane comes and blows the poorly built home to pieces

No hurricanes Here...

with no unions there are no training programs so you have unskilled people trying to doing skilled jobs at pay rates that hurt other workers
if you want a 3rd world class home good luck

We have a skilled person to direct them, they're just cheap and do what they're told. They do minor things mostly.

 

[ray b]

Have you all heard about the effort for Mexico to reclaim the southern states. Once thought to be a joke, according to the report on Lou Dobbs yesterday, this idea is gaining favor amoung illegal immigrants; who organized a 500,000 person protest in in L.A., in one day.

There is a formal name for this movement but I didn't quite catch it.

As a person who grew up in S. Cal, this is my biggest problem with the illegals: Many don't wan't to be Americans, rather they want America to be Mexico. They don't want to assimilate into our culture, they want to transform our culture into theirs. Never mind that their country sucks so bad that they all want to come here... They want to import their failed system and culture.

Oh yes, time and time again you can see that they believe they are entitled to US land and social programs. I have heard this first hand many times.

reconquesta

here in miami it has allmost happend
most jobs require spanish BUT NOT ENGLISH
as that is what bilingual means here

or you get the callers asking for a spanish speaker in good english
who hangs up when told no spanish speakers are available

 

[X-43D]

There are also those who don't even want to live here, but come across the border to earn a paycheck to send back to support their family that will stay in Mexico. It just sucks money straight from our economy to support theirs.

Gee, why is nobody up in arms that Canada doesn't allow unskilled U.S. citizens to work in Canada either? When the former lab I worked in moved to Canada, there was no problem obtaining visas for the "highly skilled workers," (i.e., those with Ph.D.s moving for faculty positions), but our technicians and the one administrative assistant that wanted to move and the lab wanted to move with them as well could not obtain visas to work in Canada, because there were not uniquely qualified over Canadian citizens available to do those jobs. I would fully expect the Canadian government to deport any U.S. citizen found to be working or living there illegally back to the U.S. and to list them as ineligible to ever cross the border again. And I don't think it should be any different for anyone entering any country illegally, so don't know why Mexican citizens needs to receive some form of special consideration. They should be treated exactly the same as any citizen of any other country as far as immigration laws are concerned.

Canada is a conservative monarchy. Huge landmass but almost no people.

 

[rachmaninoff2]

Canada is a conservative monarchy. Huge landmass but almost no people.

Huh? Canada is a parliamentary democracy, and quite liberal. They have thirty million people.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

In regard to screening current illegals in the country and fear of riots -- This is why I say this is not immigration but an invasion. Call in the troops if we must. Foreigners cannot be allowed to dictate our laws to us with fear and riots on our soil. We are defending American freedom in Iraq? Riiight.

Why does that make it an invasion? A cop shoots a teenager and there are riots. A court verdict is announced and there are riots. A basketball game ends and there are riots. It saddens me that americans riots over such small things. But if the government started making rounds asking people "Vere are your paypas?" and rounding them up to throw in camps and deport them I would be seriously worried if there weren't any riots.
And I'm sure that military presence will defuse any tense and potentially explosively violent situations since that's the way it's always worked in the past.

 

[SOS2008]

Why does that make it an invasion? A cop shoots a teenager and there are riots. A court verdict is announced and there are riots. A basketball game ends and there are riots. It saddens me that americans riots over such small things. But if the government started making rounds asking people "Vere are your paypas?" and rounding them up to throw in camps and deport them I would be seriously worried if there weren't any riots.
And I'm sure that military presence will defuse any tense and potentially explosively violent situations since that's the way it's always worked in the past.

Sports riots are another issue. Court verdicts viewed as racist is getting closer. But these issues are separate from this topic.

People who are in the country illegally do not have the same rights as legal citizens, which includes protesting U.S. laws in U.S. streets. If Americans feel fear of riots and violence from foreigners on U.S. soil, that is a form of invasion. And let's not exaggerate comparisons of enforcing our laws to that of a Gestapo. It saddens me that legal citizens aren't able to organize and protest against something as large as an invasion.

Ultimately it is a problem created by governments, not the people. That's why I agree there should be civility. Nonetheless, the choice is either processing people who are here illegally or granting amnesty. There is consensus that amnesty cannot be granted again and again, and the problem has reached a point where we must address it comprehensively, which will include deportation of those who don't qualify for citizenship.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

People who are in the country illegally do not have the same rights as legal citizens, which includes protesting U.S. laws in U.S. streets. If Americans feel fear of riots and violence from foreigners on U.S. soil, that is a form of invasion. And let's not exaggerate comparisons of enforcing our laws to that of a Gestapo. It saddens me that legal citizens aren't able to organize and protest against something as large as an invasion.

Not all of the people who protest are illegal immigrants. I'm not even sure a majority of those that protest are illegals since they tend to worry about being discovered and deported.

And the Minutemen were a rather large and well covered 'protest' against illegal immigration.

 

[SOS2008]

Not all of the people who protest are illegal immigrants. I'm not even sure a majority of those that protest are illegals since they tend to worry about being discovered and deported.

And the Minutemen were a rather large and well covered 'protest' against illegal immigration.

We are only digressing here, but many of the protesters in L.A. were illegal. Even more revealing was the most recent protest in NY, where they were waving flags from many countries, but almost all of the protestors were Mexican. Of course these people are afraid of being forced to follow the law, which might mean deportation. Those who have been here for some years are not afraid, and operate quite openly, starting businesses, buying property, etc.

The Minutemen here in Arizona have returned to help monitor a section of the border for a month. This is what they choose to do to bring the issue to the public's attention. I am not aware of any rallies being organized at the time by them or any other organization. I think groups want to avoid violence that might erupt in response to protests. I'll go if I'm wrapped in a Kevlar American flag -- that tells you something, no?

 

[edward]

Not all of the people who protest are illegal immigrants. I'm not even sure a majority of those that protest are illegals since they tend to worry about being discovered and deported.

500,000 protested in L.A. Exactly what agency could discover and deport them?? Their is safety in numbers, we can't even keep up with deporting those caught pouring across the border. When deported they just turn around and come back a few days later.

When they were seen running up and down the streets waving the Mexican flag, they sent their true message. And to think that they would do this while coffins draped with the American flag are returning to this country shows where their loyalty truly is. Mehico Mehico.

Here is a link to the statistics on illegal immigrants compiled by the Department of Homeland Security for 2004. It is PDF, so I can't cut and paste the parts I would like to.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/publications/AnnualReportEnforcement2004.pdf

At one time I had no problem with people coming up from Mexico seeking a better life. That had been happening for 50 years. The situation in the past ten years has gone far beyond anything acceptable. Many coming now are illiterate even in their own language.

And they are not all taking jobs that Americans will not do. That line is a fallacy. They are doing the same jobs Americans used to do, but doing them for lower wages than Americans can afford to work for.

For instance in Southern Arizona local garbage truck drivers who used to make $12 per hour have been replaced by illegals who will do the job for $7 per hour and with no benefits. This same situation has spilled over into the construction industry. Illegals are now prevalent at construction sites doing; masonry, carpentry,roofing, drywall, plumbing and electrical.

A typical home builder subcontracts most of the actual construction to other companies who usually specialize in one aspect of building, such as framers or electricians.
Contracts go to the lowest bidder, the company who hires the most illegals, will be the lowest bidder.

 

[Vincent Vega]

You think I care about the greedy business owners lining their pockets hiring cost efficient works? How does that benefit America? Tax payers pay for their stay and well being. A majority of Americans don't want illegals here, and those vote greedy politicians basically, just told Americans, "what does your opinion matter?". Raise minimum wage and maybe AMERICANS will take these "UNWANTED" jobs.

 

[Moonbear]

You think I care about the greedy business owners lining their pockets hiring cost efficient works? How does that benefit America? Tax payers pay for their stay and well being. A majority of Americans don't want illegals here, and those vote greedy politicians basically, just told Americans, "what does your opinion matter?". Raise minimum wage and maybe AMERICANS will take these "UNWANTED" jobs.

It's not even just minimum wage that's the issue, because they are willing to work for less than minimum wage, or in jobs that are not protected by minimum wage laws, such as migrant farm workers who are paid at piece-rates rather than hourly rates. http://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=248_0_3_0

Though, those jobs are also not steady employment either, but seasonal.

 

[ray b]

The Mexican solution

-Article 33, "Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country."
-Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones.
-Article 32 bans foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.
-Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers.
-Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth.
-Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.
-Article 130, immigrants - even legal ones - may not become members of the clergy.
-Article 27, foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights.
-Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests.
-Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities."

The Mexican constitution states that foreigners - not just illegal immigrants - may be expelled for any reason and without due process.
-Article 33, "the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action."

why should we treat them any different then they treat us?

 

[Art]

Here's an interesting article which cites a report which claims the high immigration numbers have actually boosted overall average american earnings.

How immigrants might actually boost wages
Influx of foreign workers leads to increased investment, study findsIn the debate raging on Capitol Hill over how to reform the nation’s immigration laws, one assumption never far from the surface is that foreign-born workers are taking jobs from native-born Americans and driving down wages.
<snip>
Many economists agree that undocumented aliens reduce wages for the least skilled native-born workers, but most also say immigration benefits the economy overall by lowering prices for consumers in a sort of Wal-Mart effect. One intriguing study even suggests that the huge influx of immigrants since 1980 has boosted the average wage of U.S.-born workers by about 2 percent, partly by spurring additional capital investment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12208037/

 

[ray b]

yes the Wal-Mart effect is good for Wal-Mart
and a good example for the USA on illegals
with a short term gain, for a long term LOSS
but is DEATH for many others
Wal-Mart buy few made in USA goods
the cheap china made JUNK they sell does not last
so they export our jobs toooo
and hurt the local econ by exporting proffits
and hurt others like mom and pop stores
so city centers die thanks to the Wal-Marts
and most other local biz lose

low wage illegals depress everyone elses wages too
hurt unions as they will not join
and so the trades use UNTRAINED LABOR
and hope the quality is not toooo poor
lower avg wages, suport poor working condisions
EXPORT $$$$$ back home that no longer is in the local or state or national econ as it is now GONE FOREVER down south

miami is now the poorest major city in the USA
thats thanks to UNCONTROLED imigration both illegal and semi-legal
over the last 40 years
and btw local jobs don't pay spit
as there are too many illegals who will work for sub minimum wage
schools are poor so NO AMERICANS will move here now

 

[McGyver]

Actual Wages Adjusted to U.S. Costs Living Less in U.S.

With all the hooplah and demonstrations this week about Mexican immigrants rights to come here for work, several points must be made.

The first is called tough love. As Americans and Christians, we have all experienced tough love. Now when Mexico pays $5 a day, and the U.S can pay $50 to $75 a day, it may look appealing, but adjusted for the much higher cost of living, housing, health care, taxes, funding of schools, etc, it's really no better than Mexico. But when states stupidly through in all the free-bees, the value of these daily eanings goes $200 to300 per day, and sends a mis-directed message about neighborly love, tough love, and self sufficiency. It is a sin according to the Bible!

NAFTA was conceived and signed into law so U.S. co's could trim costs by shipping labor to places like Mexico. Instead, more workers have come up here today than before NAFTA, and they want to push up the U.S. minimum wage to stay. Hello! It's a secondary argument being floated around, that it needs to be raised so Americans will take these jobs, or make the pay scale more livable for foreign laborers. This would seem to attract even more illigal immigration. Kind of defeats the purpose of NAFTA and our economic model. Wake up Washington!

Do we need to send them more jobs? I mean, what is the correct economic model? This has barely been brought up. Congress and the White House better have a workable economic model to share with the country. Our fiscal budget and jobs could be the #3 issue in the Fall elections, and #1 or #2 in '08.

 

[SOS2008]

There are those (mostly Mexican nationals) who say it is silly to build a wall on our border because people would still cross over illegally. So by that logic we shouldn't even try to secure our borders, right? Come on, we may not completely stop all illegal entry, but we should at least try to limit it as much as possible. (Have you noticed that talk of securing the border makes Mexican nationals very nervous?)

There are those who say it is too difficult to become a citizen legally. Is it any more difficult than obtaining citizenship in other countries? I know several people who have obtained citizenship legally, so apparently it is possible. There are those who say it is unfair that Mexicans aren't even allowed to apply for citizenship due to quotas. Should Mexicans be given favored status over people who wish to immigrate from other countries? Why, and how so?

There are those who say illegals work hard and only want to feed their families, so they are not criminals. Yes, the American dream is all about working hard to get ahead, but it's not about cutting in line via illegal entry, or cheating with fake ID -- and yes, those who break laws are criminals.

There are those who say we must grant amnesty to illegals already in the U.S. because it would be outrageous to deport them all. First of all, there are probably about 20 million illegals, not 11 million. And no one is advocating deporting all of them. I hate this "either or," black and white crap. However, there cannot be blanket amnesty, which means these people do need to be screened for criminal records, contagious disease, employment status/capability, including illiteracy and/or ability to speak English. Only those who do not meet these basic requirements should be automatically deported. Will it cost some money? Yes, and worth every penny.

The rest need to be issued "white cards" while they wait in line for citizenship. In the meantime, if they entered illegally, they should pay a fine, and if they used fake ID, they should do public/military service, and if they owe taxes, they need to pay up. Because they and other hopefuls need to know they can't break laws without penalty.

Have you noticed that those who exaggerate everything are those with a pro-Mexican agenda, and when they get upset their Mexican nationalism really shows through? A couple of guests on CNN tonight were getting very upset, for example one man was upset about the Mexican flag being burned here in the U.S. by American citizens. Like people don't burn the American flag all over the world every day of the week. And for Christ sake, the "organizers" of the protests realized they needed to pass out more American flags today because they had an "image" problem. Like that would compensate for the Mexican flag flown above the American flag, or distract from the singing in Spanish. Riiiight.

In the meantime, I went to the "Border Guardians" site to see if there were any demonstrations I could attend, but the site is being overwhelmed with so many hits they had only an article posted. What does that tell you?

 

[Gokul43201]

...Will it cost some money? Yes, and worth every penny.

Some money ? Has anyone got a rough estimate ?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The cost of enforcement would have to be compared to the demand on health and social programs, in addition to the law enforcement etc needed to cope with the illegals, as things are now.

What keeps getting me is their attitude. I have listened to one advocate after another and I keep hearing the same thing: They are doing this by force. They not only threaten with their vote, which is fine, but they also demand that these people have a right to come here. Then they claim that they are going to keep coming here and there nothing nothing that we can do about it.

Keep it up and you will see exactly what happens when people have finally had enough.

The first thing that I would do is to strongly enforce the laws against hiring illegals. I think a $30K - $50K fine for each undocumented worker is about the right number. This is how to stop the problem. And the fines would pay for enforcement. If the company doesn't have the money, confiscate its holdings and sell them at auction.

 

[SOS2008]

Some money ? Has anyone got a rough estimate ?

Beginning with securing the border, estimates are $2.2 billion for a 700-mile wall. - http://www.forbes.com/home/forbes/2006/0410/094.html

Though a wall pisses off your neighbor (e.g., Vicente Fox wants money to continue to flow back to Mexico), my understanding is the West Bank fence in Israel has been very effective. And the cost is chicken feed compared to the trillions our government blows through each year, and even just in comparison to the invasion/occupation of Iraq.

I could not find estimates for what it would take to begin processing illegals already in the country (maybe I will have time to look later). However, here are estimates of what it will cost if we don't:

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

If we need more labor in this country, let's increase immigration from all parts of the world, and according to predetermined need and qualifications for that need. And if we don't begin to address the problems to our south in earnest, and stop putting a Band-Aid on a gaping wound at the American people's expense, we will find ourselves wondering what happened to spreading democracy on our own continent.

Bush is the WORST president we've ever had. What ever an inept idiot advocates, we should do the opposite.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Speaking of attitude...

Violence Mars Immigration Demonstration

...The victim, identified as Robert Gorman, of Portland, was one of about three people carrying signs arguing that illegals have no rights. He was treated and released from the Maine Medical Center emergency room.

http://www.wmtw.com/news/8600573/detail.html

Gorman is reportedly the son of legal Mexican immigrants. The demonstrations have been peaceful, but we haven't seen any counter protests... until now.

Have you seen the picture of the Mexican flag flying over the upsidedown US flag, or the US flags being flown upsidedown in the marches?

 

[McGyver]

Why don't Americans Express much Opposition?

Whether the topic is illegal immigration and the most unusual demonstations in cities across the U.S., or the war in Iraq and against terror, or the ridiculous costs (and profits) of oil and gas, or pricing of health care products and services - most Americans seem, in large part, to be content to let things go on as they are - WHY IS THIS?

These demonstrations en masse in support of illegal immigration is the most ridiculous abuse of U.S. freedom of speech - when easily half of those demonstrating aren't even citizens. Yet, even more ridiculous, is the lackluster response by ordinary law-abiding Americans, most of whom are offended and non-supportive of the demonstrations. I mean, what ever happened to "getting in line?" These folks have cut in and jumped into the front of the line. I can't imagine many Americans would allow this to occur in their ordinary activities - without objection.

So where's the objection? I guess I can only conclude that we're all too busy with our own individual challenges, and feel detached from such national and global issues. Or, good Americans have been made to look like crying liberals if they express any strong personal objection. Perhaps it is only after things directly affect us, until we express any substantive opposition.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Thousands of toilet brushes are being mailed to L.A. City Hall after Mayor Villaraigosa's now famous "we clean your toilets" speech at a recent immigration rally.
http://www.johnandkenshow.com/

 

[SOS2008]

It isn't cool to be an activist and protest in the streets. Also, it is hard to take time off from demanding jobs. And let's face it, white men cannot demonstrate against an issue connected to minorities--bad, very bad. But ultimately, there are no groups to organize anti-amnesty demonstrations. Big business, the Catholic Church, etc. are backing these so-called "immigration reform" marches, and some of the people were just hanging out in the yard, or gave up a day on the corner.

Also, who has the most at stake? These people have opened bank accounts, bought homes, started businesses, have their children in school, etc. They have A LOT at stake. Never mind that they did it all illegally or at legal citizen's expense, they are going to fight to keep it.

As with the DP Port deal, flood your representatives with calls, letters, emails, etc. They know who holds the vote in 2006 and 2008. And encourage others to do the same. I constructed a letter that I sent to my representatives, and than emailed it to about 20 people along with email addresses for Arizona congressmen.

 

[Entropy]

It isn't cool to be an activist and protest in the streets. Also, it is hard to take time off from demanding jobs.

My thoughts exactly. If you are protesting, you have too much time on your hands.

 

[edward]

The corrupt Mexican government, who demands rights and legalization of it's immigrants in the USA, treats Central American immigrants in it's own country quite differently.

TULTITLAN, Mexico -- Considered felons by the government, these immigrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Sometimes they are deported; more often police officers simply take their money.

While immigrants in the United States have held huge demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of illegal Central Americans in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-mex19.html