News Should Mexicans Focus on Improving Mexico Instead of Immigrating Illegally?

[BobG]

How do people feel about the Mexican translation of the National Anthem? Nuestro Himno

For that matter, how many actually know the words (American version) to the National Anthem? About 61% don't know the words to the first verse - it would be hard to find someone who knew the words to all four stanzas (Good thing, too, since the fourth stanza includes the words, "In God is our trust".)

In fact, how many people know the original words to that melody? The melody is from a song called "To Anacreon in Heaven" written in the 1760's. Francis Scott Key then used the melody for his poem, "In Defense of Fort McHenry", which was later renamed to "The Star Spangled Banner".

 

[selfAdjoint]

Did Francis Scott Key actually set his poem to "Anacreon in Heaven" or did somebody else do that later? I realize this is OT and maybe we should take this issue to the History subforum.

 

[SOS2008]

How do people feel about the Mexican translation of the National Anthem?

I doubt anyone is against patriotism in itself, but if someone is truly proud to be American, why not learn the anthem in English? To encourage assimilation and advancement, English should be our national language and all immigrants should be encouraged to learn it. Nuestro Himno, Notre Hymne, Unsere Hymne, etc.--it doesn't matter what foreign language--this kind of propaganda only undermines this premise and harms the people who ignorantly embrace it.

 

[selfAdjoint]

My only recent experience with Mexican immigrants is in Northern states, Illinois and Wisconsin. There are lots of them, so it seems there are many immigrants who aren't content to remain in the stronghold of la Raza. And the ones I have met were all hard working and ambitious to succeed. Working at yard care or hot kitchens and behaving most admirably, and they all learned at least a little English. In fact ESL is a boom industry in this part of the world. Every bit as worthy of respect as prior immigrants.

So I tend to view the "immigrant problem" as a problem not with Mexicans but a problem with Texas, California, etc.

 

[SOS2008]

My only recent experience with Mexican immigrants is in Northern states, Illinois and Wisconsin. There are lots of them, so it seems there are many immigrants who aren't content to remain in the stronghold of la Raza. And the ones I have met were all hard working and ambitious to succeed. Working at yard care or hot kitchens and behaving most admirably, and they all learned at least a little English. In fact ESL is a boom industry in this part of the world. Every bit as worthy of respect as prior immigrants.

So I tend to view the "immigrant problem" as a problem not with Mexicans but a problem with Texas, California, etc.

The Southwest today, the north tomorrow. I too would prefer to view illegal entry as a problem not just associated with Mexicans. But the fact is the percentages are highly skewed to Mexicans, and the attitudes we are beginning to see are a result of strength in numbers. Also, unfortunately it is encouraged by Vicente Fox, who refers to these people as his heroes. What a great neighbor he makes, huh?

I agree these people are very hard working, and I believe there are some jobs (e.g., picking produce, cleaning fish in a meat packing facility, etc.) that Americans may not be willing to do. But I think it is more related to pay. I just watched a program about the flood of Americans who went to work on the Alaskan pipeline (not so long ago). It was hard work, long hours, in difficult and dangerous conditions. Why did so many go? Because of the pay.

I'm sure I'm more sensitive because I live in a border state, but I also know several people (my sister-in-law from England, my childhood friend who's husband is from the Dominican, another friend from Iran, etc.) who all immigrated legally. And it's not just citizenship being made available to people from all around the world, but also guest worker visas. There are people from England I know who would love to come to America to work temporarily. And don't you think many people from Asia, India, the Middle East, etc. would be willing to pick produce or clean fish? I know they would.

So even if Americans really aren't willing to do these jobs, there are many people who will. There has to be quotas, and laws must be enforced to make immigration fair.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

LOS ANGELES IS OURS? WHAT'S THAT ALL ABOUT?

I have a copy of a page from a Mexican magazine called "Expansion." It's the editorial page. The editorial is printed in English and Spanish. I thought you might get a kick out of the title to the editorial. "A proposito de "Con todo respeto, Los Angeles es nuestro." Translation? "With all due respect, Los Angeles is ours."

http://boortz.com/nuze/200603/03312006.html

This is an invasion, not immigration.

As for the "No Gringo" boycott, that will help to show officials where illegals can be found.

 

[SOS2008]

http://boortz.com/nuze/200603/03312006.html

This is an invasion, not immigration.

As for the "No Gringo" boycott, that will help to show officials where illegals can be found.

The Mexican land owners were allowed to keep their land and were given automatic citizenship. If these people are upset that the Mexican flag isn't being flown in California as a part of Mexico, apparently it hasn't dawned on them that Los Angeles would be like Tijuana if it was. And they would still be crossing the border illegally to get a job in other states of the U.S.

In regard to these divisive attitudes, as with the protests, such displays are only back firing. They are waking up the sleeping giant, and it isn't the one they were hoping for.

EDIT: This just in -- Outside of Senator McCain's office, between 200 and 300 people had come bearing heads of lettuces and resumes. Previously Sen. McCain indicated that he was sure that no one would accept his $50 per hour job offer to pick lettuce. Many took up his offer when he made that declaration. The parking lot outside his office was filled with people carrying heads of lettuce to let Sen. McCain know they wanted the job.

 

[Astronuc]

I don't think its a matter of flying the Mexican flag in California, as much as its a matter of being treated with basic respect and human dignity, and its a matter of justice and fair wages.

EDIT: This just in -- Outside of Senator McCain's office, between 200 and 300 people had come bearing heads of lettuces and resumes. Previously Sen. McCain indicated that he was sure that no one would accept his $50 per hour job offer to pick lettuce. Many took up his offer when he made that declaration. The parking lot outside his office was filled with people carrying heads of lettuce to let Sen. McCain know they wanted the job.

And he wants to be president!? He'll have to do better than that.

 

[SOS2008]

I don't think its a matter of flying the Mexican flag in California, as much as its a matter of being treated with basic respect and human dignity, and its a matter of justice and fair wages.

All workers including American workers would like to be treated with respect and human dignity and to earn fair wages. Justice is obeying laws, and if you want respect, then show respect.

 

[Astronuc]

Justice is obeying laws, and if you want respect, then show respect.

I agree, but for the illegals, its a matter of survival. For people who hire them, its a matter of exploitation, and for the most part, the US government has turned a blind eye to the matter - they really have not had a serious effort in dealing with the illegals, until 9/11.

And speaking of obeying laws - someone needs to remind the Bush administration.

 

[edward]

How do people feel about the Mexican translation of the National Anthem? Nuestro Himno

For that matter, how many actually know the words (American version) to the National Anthem? About 61% don't know the words to the first verse

Hmm that first verse starts out: "Jose can you see" Bill Dana circa 1960. Sorry I just couldn't resist.

Seriously, here in Tucson we are overwhelmend with illegals needing medical care and social services. One of our two trauma centers closed its doors because the government was not reimbursing them for treating illegals.

This means if the one remaining trauma center is at capacity Tucsonans must be flown to Phoenix for trauma care. The one center is at capacity about once a week, usually because a vehicle overloaded with illegals has crashed.

This week 24 illegals in a stolen pickup truck rolled over in a high speed accident. Four were killed nine required treatment at the trauma center, leaving the center over capacity for four hours. The vehicle had been spotted by the Border Patrol, but was not being chased by any agency. The idiots just drive that way. It was just an average week.

 

[SOS2008]

I agree, but for the illegals, its a matter of survival. For people who hire them, its a matter of exploitation, and for the most part, the US government has turned a blind eye to the matter - they really have not had a serious effort in dealing with the illegals, until 9/11.

How many Americans fight for survival each day? Don't they deserve to come first? And then how many people fight for survival in other countries of the world? Don't they get a shot at coming to the U.S.? I'm sorry, but on this topic the "liberal" arguments don't have a leg to stand on.

I agree there hasn't been a terrorist act committed by someone crossing the southern border...yet. However, a secure border is about more than terrorism. It is about a range of things, such as drug trafficking, as well as human trafficking and the crime and other problems that often comes with it.

The illegals are harmed more by coyotes, and their own people here in the U.S. I know a Hispanic loan officer who helps these people buy homes, and he rips them off with outrageous fees. He is a Catholic who supports Bush and so-called values, yet at the same time he wants these illegals to keep coming because he can make money from their fear, but mostly because they can't speak (or read/write) English. And guess what illegals pay the coyotes? Often much more than fees to be processed legally.

They can't get in because there are too many? The answer isn't to unfairly allow more in. The answer is to improve the situation in Mexico. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but Latin America is becoming more hostile (e.g., Venezuela) and anti-American. Want to spread democracy? How about we start next door.

And speaking of obeying laws - someone needs to remind the Bush administration.

Perhaps that's why he doesn't have a problem rewarding law breakers with amnesty.

EDIT: This just in --

"Mexico poised to allow small amounts of drugs
Congress decriminalizes possession of cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, pot" - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12535896/

It's a good thing Mexico is so strict in enforcing other laws, or they might see a flood of American drug addicts entering illegally and never going back home. Someone sent me this, made me laugh:

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this. I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government employees for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th, which will include Rock & Roll instead of Mexican polka music. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

 

[edward]

The Mexican government is more to blame here than the Bush administration is admitting. Allowing the illegals to mass at the border and then cross into the USA is Mexico's answer to one of the worst wealth distribution systems in the Americas.

Mexico’s governing class has no incentive to reform so long as poor Mexicans can come here, do menial labor and receive free education, food stamps and health care while sending an estimated $15 billion to poor relatives back home. This is why official Mexican policy is to respect American law, but official Mexican actions routinely abuse our immigration statutes.

No wonder Mexican officials print and distribute a comic book-style tour guide to illegal immigrants headed here. No wonder the Mexican government maintains a Cabinet-level agency — the Institute for Mexicans Abroad — to help immigrants. No wonder Grupo Beta Mexican law enforcement officials steer immigrants to the most open U.S. border crossing

http://www.examiner.com/a-84836~Editorial__Mexico_s_hidden_agenda.html

 

[SOS2008]

The Mexican government is more to blame here than the Bush administration is admitting. Allowing the illegals to mass at the border and then cross into the USA is Mexico's answer to one of the worst wealth distribution systems in the Americas.

Most certainly Mexico's double standard is a major problem. In follow-up to laws of Mexico already posted, and my comments about Mexican nationals appalled by Americans burning the Mexican flag, here is additional information that supports my post above:

The audacity of Mexico’s interference in U.S. immigration policy stands in sharp contrast to Mexico’s own jealous sense of sovereignty. It is difficult to imagine a country touchier about interference in its domestic affairs or less tolerant of immigrants. In 2002, for example, Mexico deported a dozen American college students (all in the country legally) who had joined a protest in Mexico City against a planned airport. Such participation, said Mexico, constituted illegal domestic interference. (It would be interesting to know how many Mexican students—legal and illegal—have participated with impunity in demonstrations in the U.S. against American immigration and educational policies.)
----------
This August, New Mexico governor Bill Richardson declared a state of emergency in four counties bordering Mexico, because of violence and devastation wrought by trafficking in aliens and drugs. City council members from the Mexican city of Ciudad Juárez branded Richardson’s declaration an interference in Mexico’s domestic affairs.
----------
Mexico’s own immigration policies are the exact opposite of what it relentlessly advocates in the United States. Its entry permits favor scientists, technicians, teachers of underrepresented disciplines, and others likely to contribute to “national progress.” Immigrants may only enter through established ports and at designated times. Anyone not presenting the proper documentation and health certificates won’t get in; the transportation company that brought him must pay his return costs. Foreigners who do not “strictly comply” with the entry conditions will face deportation. Steve Royster, who worked in the American consulate in Mexico from 1999 to 2001, presided over several deportations of Americans who had overstayed their visas. “They were given a choice: accept deportation or go to jail,” he says.

Providing full college tuition or all-expenses-paid secondary and primary education for illegal American students in Mexico? Unthinkable. Until recently, U.S.-born children of Mexican parents weren’t even allowed to enroll in Mexican public schools, reserved for Mexican citizens only. The parents would have to bribe officials for Mexican birth certificates for their kids. (The 1998 change in the Mexican constitution to allow dual nationality now makes enrollment by U.S.-born Mexicans possible.) “We’re not friendly with immigrants; that’s a big difference with the speech we have here with American schools,” admits a Mexican diplomat.

What about textbooks to propagate American culture in Mexico? They would provoke an uprising against Yanqui imperialism. When President Ernesto Zedillo tried in the 1990s merely to revise Mexican textbooks to acknowledge contemporary cooperation between the U.S. and Mexico, he found himself denounced as a traitor. The revisions went nowhere.

The Mexican police, traditionally corrupt and brutal towards their own citizenry, are even more corrupt and brutal towards illegal immigrants, mostly from Central America. The article goes on to say:

Mexico’s border police have reportedly engaged in rapes, robberies, and beatings of illegal aliens from Central and South America on their way to the U.S. Yet compared with the extensive immigrant-advocacy network in the U.S., few pressure groups exist in Mexico to protest such treatment. If Americans run afoul of Mexico’s border police, watch out. In 1996, the Mexican police beat and shot in the back a teenage American girl who had led them on a high-speed chase in Tijuana. No one in the U.S. or Mexico raised a fuss, at least publicly.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_mexico.html

How anyone can deny this is a foreign-sponsored invasion is beyond me (read the entire article if you're not sure). Do you realize these people demand the right to have a driver's license, and do you realize this is all that is needed to register to vote?

And talking about national anthems, Mexico’s one-way attitude is best illustrated by the Mexican national anthem, Mexicanos al Grito de Guerra, which I understand translates to this:

But if some strange enemy should dare
to profane your ground with his step,
think, oh beloved country,
that heaven has given you a soldier in every son.

Hmm..."to profane your ground with his step"

But I feel both Mexico and Bush are to blame. Bush is responsible for effectively announcing amnesty, and also failing to be tough with Mexico for it's own failures. But also, American businesses are to blame. These companies lobby fiercely in order to continue enjoyment of low wages. And then there are Americans themselves, who like inexpensive maids, gardeners, nannies, etc. (not that I or most Americans can relate).

In regard to the 11 (more like 20) million illegals already in the U.S., many feel the most effective and least costly way to deal with this problem is through attrition by enforcing immigration and hiring laws. If illegals suddenly find themselves unable to work, they will go home on their own. And when they return home they will convey this message to others. So those of you who are considering guest worker programs and/or allowing illegals to simply pay fines because you think it is impossible to process all these people (as I have), consider this solution, which also is preferable to forced deportation.

As for keeping the economy going, if needed, this can be achieved with immigrants from around the world and per proper screening. People ask whether illegals are helping or hurting the economy. I feel the question is irrelevant and wonder why it's even asked. There is no justification for law-breaking, nor exceptions that should be made for a particular nationality of people. We are a compassionate nation, and these people have been banking on it.

 

[Astronuc]

"Mexico poised to allow small amounts of drugs
Congress decriminalizes possession of cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, pot" - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12535896/

Pengwuino posted something about this in GD. The reason that the Mexican government did this is that they are trying to undermine the corruption of the police, who let minor drug offenders go in exchange for bribes.

The solutions to the problem of illegal immigrations are 1) economic development in the countries from which people are trying to 'escape' and 2) ending the endemic/systemic corruption.


The Mexican police (some/many?) are traditionally corrupt and brutal towards anyone who is vulnerable.

How many Americans fight for survival each day?

Too many!

Don't they deserve to come first?

Yes. Everyone deserves a chance.

And then how many people fight for survival in other countries of the world?

Oh, about 3-4 billion.

Don't they get a shot at coming to the U.S.?

Well, if we allow that, then we'd have about 3-4 billion extra people in the US.

I'm sorry, but on this topic the "liberal" arguments don't have a leg to stand on.

I certainly am not arguing for illegal immigration. I think everyone should obey the law and go by the book.

The problem of illegal immigration should have been dealt with a long time ago - and it wasn't - so now its a crisis. So we collectively pay for the sins of the past.

I know several people, some of whom are wealthy, who have employed illegal aliens and made good money as a result. Many companies/businesses and the owners in Texas paid illegal aliens less than minimum wage (and no health care, no insurance, no pension), and they benefitted hugely. The authorities looked the other way.

I think many illegals realize that they collectively have been exploited, and that when convenient many Americans and the American government look the other way. Then look at the behavior of the American government and corporations in Central and South America.

The doctrine was conceived by its authors, especially John Quincy Adams, as a proclamation by the United States of moral opposition to colonialism, but has subsequently been re-interpreted in a wide variety of ways, including by President Theodore Roosevelt as a license for the U.S. to practice its own form of colonialism (known as the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Corollary_to_the_Monroe_Doctrine

The Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine was a substantial alteration (called an "amendment") of the Monroe Doctrine by U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt. In its altered state, the Monroe Doctrine would now consider Latin America as an agency for expanding U.S. commercial interests in the region, along with its original stated purpose of keeping European hegemony from the hemisphere.

And then there are the "Maquiladoras" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladoras - which have attracted so many people to the US-Mexican borders. But the problem is that as bad as it might be for illegals in the US, its better than the situation back home!

BTW, I am doing like TSA and playing 's advocate on this matter.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

New Diseases and medical costs associated with illegal immigration

...A report by CIS, using 2004 data, "found that 35 percent of [all] immigrants don't have health insurance, and an estimated 65 percent of illegals don't have it," Mr. Camarota said. In contrast, fewer than 13 percent of U.S. natives and their children lack health insurance, the analysis showed. In 2002, he said, the federal government spent $2.5 billion to provide families of illegal immigrants with Medicaid and another $2.2 billion to provide medical treatment for uninsured illegals. "State and local governments probably spent another $1.6 billion on top of that providing health insurance for illegal aliens," said Mr. Camarota, whose group analyzes Census Bureau data. The health system of Los Angeles County, Calif., has been described as the largest safety net for the uninsured in the nation. "We have 2.5 million uninsured people in Los Angeles County out of a population of 9.6 million," said Dr. Brian Johnston, a trustee of the Los Angeles County Medical Association. California state law requires that counties provide medical care for the uninsured. "But we have the lowest rates of reimbursement for Medicaid of any program in the United States," he said. Dr. Johnston said the situation has been bleak for health providers and patients alike. "In 2002, [emergency rooms] and trauma centers in California provided $520 million worth of medical care for which they received no reimbursement. About $150 million was lost in Los Angeles County alone," he said. Those losses were 18 percent higher than in 2001, and those in 2001 were 16 percent ahead of 2000. "So this puts the entire system at risk," Dr. Johnston said. He noted that Los Angeles County experienced the closings of seven emergency rooms last year and 16 clinics the year before [continued]

http://www.alipac.us/article207.html

IMO, illegal immigration has played a large role in breaking the back of the medical system; esp in the Los Angeles basin.

And what of the coming bird flu threat?

 

[Astronuc]

And what of the coming bird flu threat?

Well, actually, that could be any communicable disease - mumps, measles, tuberculosis, and many others that are very limited in a healthy population which has access to good nutrition and immunizations.

I was reflecting on the exchange between SOS and myself. I certainly maintain that immigration should be done legally, and that people have no right to simply drop in and expect to live and work. I wouldn't allow any stranger to simply come into my house and live.

On the other hand, I remember the illegal aliens who would show up a job sites for companies like Brown & Root (now part of Kellogg, Brown & Root, part of Halliburton). They were cheap labor that helped many Texas companies make huge profits over the last several decades. On the down side, I know of several who were injured (one guy broke both feet in a fall), and they were not covered by insurance. The illegal immigrants were certainly exploited and the US governments (states and Federal) simply ingnored the matter. And now it's a problem?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It has always been a problem. The difference is that the numbers are catching up with us. Also, now that they are here in large numbers, the illegals think they can demand rights.

We've reached a very strange moment in the immigration debate. On Wednesday President Bush condemned a group of good American citizens worried about the breaking of U.S. immigration law. He condemned the organizers of Project Minuteman as "vigilantes" even though they have broken no law and pledge not to do so.

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20050324-075949-5943r.htm

I think we may be close to a genuine border war. People are fed up with the government failing to do its primary job of defending the borders.

 

[SOS2008]

Reporting once more from ground zero, Arizona (edward is really at ground zero!).

Well, if we allow that, then we'd have about 3-4 billion extra people in the US.

When I say "have a shot" I mean per quotas for all nationalities, and of course per qualifications.

I think many illegals realize that they collectively have been exploited, and that when convenient many Americans and the American government look the other way. Then look at the behavior of the American government and corporations in Central and South America..

I disagree with the premise of exploitation on certain levels. Beginning with business owners and/or citizens who knowingly hire illegals (typically from known street corners or day labor facilities provided by the likes of Home Depot) and who often pay good wages, for example $10/hr., which is well above the minimum wage and not bad for unskilled labor, and often food and drink is provided as well. The business owners are willing to pay this because they still save a lot by not paying benefits, taxes, and other costs if they hired legal workers.

Businesses that collect documents, though they may well suspect the documents are false, do pay lower wages than they otherwise would pay, but everything is relative. One example reported on CNN was that of an illegal working at a restaurant earning 25,000/yr. His son is completing college with a scholarship, and his wife is receiving medical care for cancer with Medicaid assistance. Not that bad, even for someone here legally.

I feel the "living in the shadows" description is an exaggeration for political purposes. Illegals learn that local law enforcement does not have the power to check for citizenship documents. They openly go to day labor centers, which also are flagrantly supported by the likes of Home Depot. They can be approached and asked if they have green cards, and they will not flee. They are at best a little more concerned than I am when I drive with expired plates. If they are deported, it is a temporary inconvenience--they will be back soon--sometimes the next day or within a week.

In regard to stereotypical hardship, such as living several families to a home, they do have electricity, clean water, etc., and most are able to move to better conditions upon earning wages. Many are buying homes, driving nice cars, starting businesses, etc., and sometimes not long after arriving here. But most of all, the next generation is not likely to face any of this. I'd hardly call this exploitation, unless you mean the other way around for legitimate companies who must compete, legal workers who's wages are depressed, or the tax payers who subsidize the process.

The most flagrant behavior of all is companies who solicit illegal labor, and even assist in smuggling them over the border. So I agree the problem is not as much about the people who are seeking a better life as it is these businesses who are at fault, and a government who has looked the other way far too long.

As for companies who hire illegals, it would be easy to discover this via tracking of fake Social Security cards. For example, in the recent crack down on IFCO Systems, a manufacturer of crates and pallets:

More than half of the company's roughly 5,800 employees during 2005 had invalid or mismatched Social Security numbers, the government alleges.

- http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-04-20-immigration_x.htm

Also, it is very obvious which industries to target, and within these industries which companies to target. For example, there is to be another round of protests on Monday, May 1st (tomorrow). Companies that have been busted before, such as Tyson Foods Inc, and other meat packing companies such as Cargill Meat Solutions and Smithfield Foods Inc., along with various construction companies such as James G. Davis Construction Corp. have openly announced they are closing operations on Monday so employees can participate in protests. How much more blatant can it be? It is like mob-controlled labor unions in reverse! We should be hearing about raids on companies like these on a daily basis.

Returning to the topic of more protests scheduled for Monday, here is another example of foreign intervention in U.S. domestic affairs:

In Mexico, 'nothing gringo on May 1'
Activists plan one-day boycott of U.S. businesses
Friday, April 14, 2006

Mexican unions, political and community groups, newspaper columnists and even some Mexican government offices have joined the call in recent days.

"Remember, nothing gringo on May 1," advises one of the many e-mails being circulated among Internet users in Mexico.

"On May 1, people shouldn't buy anything from the interminable list of American businesses in Mexico," reads another. "That means no Dunkin' Donuts, no McDonald's, Burger King, Starbucks, Sears, Krispy Kreme or Wal-Mart."

For some it's a way to express anti-U.S. sentiment, while others see it as part of a cross-border, Mexican-power lobby.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/14/mexico.boycott.ap/

Do we see illegal immigrants from other countries singing the national anthem in their language, protesting, boycotting, etc.? Legal American citizens are being encouraged to shop on Monday as a counter to the boycott (though I would exclude Wal-Mart because of it's history of employing illegals). Good Lord, what do we have here--A culture embracing assimilation or civil strife?

One of the organizers behind the upcoming "Day of Protest" was interviewed on the news. He directly stated that the goal is to achieve amnesty. He made no mention of making it easier to become a citizen legally, or guest worker programs, or any other solution, but amnesty. Also their goal is to allow the flow across the border to continue--not just to advocate on behalf of those already here illegally. Don't kid yourselves people--this is what they are really fighting for--more of the same.

With this in mind I am appalled at the companies, the so called human rights groups, religious organizations, etc. that are enabling all this. Certainly tax-funded public schools should not allow students to walk out of class so they can contribute to an anti-American, ethnically divisive movement.

 

[edward]

The meat processing industry is preparing for the "Illegal Monday" by closing plants all over the country.

Tyson, headquartered in Springdale, Ark., will close 12 plants nationwide, the company said in a statement. Spokesman Gary Mickelson cited "factors such as market conditions that permit scheduling changes and the potential shortage of workers."

Swift, based in Greeley, Colo., will shut down four of its five beef processing plants and two of its three pork processing plants, spokesman Sean McHugh said in a statement Friday. The decision was based on factors including previously scheduled maintenance, general market conditions and employees' requests for time off.

And Cargill, based in Wichita, Kan., will close plants in Iowa, Kansas, Illinois, Texas, Nebraska and Colorado.

Pittsburgh, Texas-based Pilgrim's Pride, planned to adjust its work schedules at poultry plants in Arkansas, while Delaware-based poultry processor Townsends Inc. planned to close its plant in Batesville, Ark., on Monday.

 

[edward]

Children who are born in this country are automatically considered to be citizens with all the rights govenment services and welfare assistance available to any citizen. Below is a good example of what has been happening with these anchor babies.

I would love to help these people, but there is no way we can afford to do so.

Cristobal Silverio emigrated illegally from Mexico to Stockton, Calif., in 1997 to work as a fruit picker. He brought with him his wife, Felipa, and three children, 19, 12 and 8 – all illegals. When Felipa gave birth to her fourth child, daughter Flor, the family had what is referred to as an "anchor baby" - an American citizen by birth who provided the entire Silverio clan a ticket to remain in the U.S. permanently.

But Flor was born premature, spent three months in the neonatal incubator and cost the San Joaquin Hospital more than $300,000. Meanwhile, oldest daughter Lourdes married an illegal alien gave birth to a daughter, too. Her name is Esmeralda. And Felipa had yet another child, Cristian.

The two Silverio anchor babies generate $1,000 per month in public welfare funding for the family. Flor gets $600 a month for asthma. Healthy Cristian gets $400. While the Silverios earned $18,000 last year picking fruit, they picked up another $12,000 for their two "anchor babies."

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/illegal-aliens-babies-diseases.html

 

[SOS2008]

Children who are born in this country are automatically considered to be citizens with all the rights govenment services and welfare assistance available to any citizen. Below is a good example of what has been happening with these anchor babies.

I would love to help these people, but there is no way we can afford to do so.


http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/illegal-aliens-babies-diseases.html

Exactly. Americans think very short term so don't grasp this. These people are willing to sacrifice in the short term with the long term in mind--a better life for the next generation. This is why I say it is the other way around. They are exploiting our system, corporate greed, and compassionate nature.

I understand some of the business owners plan to march too. Hmm...why do I suspect the organizers will confiscate any Mexican flags tomorrow?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Some of the voices supporting the illegals, such as Cardinal Mahoney and some Spanish language radio stations, are asking people not to stay away from jobs and businesses.

Do you suppose that threats might not serve their cause, and people are starting to realize this?

Side note: I was confirmed by Mahoney.

 

[Astronuc]

Some data on the illegal immigrant situation.

An estimated 11.5 - 12 million foreign nationals are living illegally in the US, according to the Pew Hispanic Center. The numbers are up from about 3 million in 1980.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/guides/456900/456958/html/nn1page1.stm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I wonder if the protest will include boycotting hospitals, welfare offices, the use of food stamps, and other public services.

 

[Art]

It seems the purpose of this discussion is not so much to discuss the issues around illegal immigration as to indulge in racist rants.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is nothing racist here. This is about ILLEGAL immigrants. But the proponents want very badly to confuse the issue.

And just for the record, if you want to talk about racist, try living with the illegals.

 

[Art]

There is nothing racist here. This is about ILLEGAL immigrants. But the proponents want very badly to confuse the issue.

And just for the record, if you want to talk about racist, try living with the illegals.

Stereotyping an ethnic group is the very definition of racism.

I do not dispute that illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be tackled. I even made some suggestions myself earlier in this thread. IMHO the thread would gain more from suggestions on how to deal with the issue rather than by focussing on the perceived shortcomings of the illegals.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Stereotyping an ethnic group is the very definition of racism.

I do not dispute that illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be tackled. I even made some suggestions myself earlier in this thread. IMHO the thread would gain more from suggestions on how to deal with the issue rather than by focussing on the perceived shortcomings of the illegals.

Is illegal immigrant an ethnic group? Have I once objected to legal Mexican immigrants?

I think the solution is to defend our borders. It's really very simply. You fine each employer a minimum of 30,000 per undocumented worker. But this business of what a great contribution they are making is bogus. There are liabilities that far outweigh the benefits of exploiting the illegals as a means to lower the standard of living here for the working class.

 

[McGyver]

Flood of Immigrant Workers Actually Depress Wages

If more immigrant workers were to come to the United States lawfully per a system that has worked for over 150 years - wages would in turn, be higher - via a lesser supply of unskilled labor.

For the legal immigant workers who chose to rally with their so-called "Mexican brothers" today, you've just "shot yourself in the foot!"

In fact, you've relegated your own arduous and lawful process to a "wasted effort." By supporting today's march, you are supporting the very economics that depress your own wages - oversupply of labor.

Why wait in lines any more? Why do things lawfully? Kind of makes a "mockery" of higher moral and ethical standards? And to think - this lawless movement has the FULL support of the Catholic church. I guess this let's the rest of us know where the Church stands on integrity!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Here we go.

..."Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.

The costs outlined in the report include government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html

Of course the study has its critics, but this also ignores losses at the State, local, and private level, as well as the money that leaves the U.S. economy and goes back to Mexico.

For me the the problem is what to do with the people already here. Obviously we can't start rounding up families by the millions, so some kind of guest status must be implemented. However, first and foremost, anyone who arrived here illegally should never be given a vote. And I do think their rights should be limited in other ways. For example, a violent crime or felony results in instant deportation, after time served. Perhaps the specific stipulation that once illegal, one can never be a legal citizen, is a good way to go.

As things stand, the illegals make it nearly impossible for law abiding Mexicans to immigrate legally. And if for no other reason than the "war on terror", does anyone remember that[?], we must secure the borders.

 

[SOS2008]

Stereotyping an ethnic group is the very definition of racism.

I do not dispute that illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be tackled. I even made some suggestions myself earlier in this thread. IMHO the thread would gain more from suggestions on how to deal with the issue rather than by focussing on the perceived shortcomings of the illegals.

I can see how it would look this way, especially to those who do not live in the U.S., though time and again I have advocated a fair system that is open to all nationalities (meaning those of you who live overseas who may want to immigrate as well).

I have mentioned my friend's husband who is here legally from the Dominican, so it is not racist (i.e. against Latinos). I will say this again, it is about Mexicans in particular because of the outrageous percentages that this particular nationality represents in regard to illegals. Furthermore, I have lived in the Southwest all my life among Hispanics (dated a Mexican guy through most of High School). The new attitudes, encouraged by Mexico/Vicente Fox, and out-of-control numbers have turned the problem into a PROBLEM.

I have offered many ideas and solutions. Perhaps you have missed these? Or perhaps you don't like any of these because none of them are in favor of a free-for-all amnesty/open border policy?

EDIT: This just in -

In the news today:

1 million march for immigrants across U.S.
Nationwide boycotts, protests meant to underscore rising economic clout NBC News and news services
Updated: 10:56 p.m. ET May 1, 2006

LOS ANGELES - More than 1 million mostly Hispanic immigrants and their supporters skipped work and took to the streets Monday, flexing their economic muscle in a nationwide boycott that succeeded in slowing or shutting many farms, factories, markets and restaurants."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12573992/

Hmm...So we don't want to be dependent of foreign oil for our energy needs, or a Dubai-based company to operate our ports, so why would we want to be dependent of foreign, and in particular illegal labor in our economy?

Yes, I think these protests have sent a message loud and clear. Mexico or any other nation cannot be allowed to dictate to the U.S. what our domestic policies and laws should be. Ask your representatives to stand up for the legal citizens and OUR nation and get this problem under control now.

 

[edward]

I also see this as being about Mexicans in particular because illegal immigration is the menthod the Mexican government is using to solve their own social problems. Lately however Central and South American illegals have joined the parade to cross the border.

It would be wonderful if we could allow all who wish to come here to enter freely. We simply can not afford to solve the social problems of other countries.

The Bush administration has knowingly allowed the masses of illegals to cross the border despite the 911 security issue. I would imagine this was allowed to happen only because the cheap labor of the illegals has helped big businesses. Hint: The three largest meat packing plants in the nation were closed today.

But the cost of providing social services, especially medical care is
overwhelming to many cities and states. Good God we already have Millions of Americans without health insurance.

 

[SOS2008]

I also see this as being about Mexicans in particular because illegal immigration is the menthod the Mexican government is using to solve their own social problems. Lately however Central and South American illegals have joined the parade to cross the border.

It would be wonderful if we could allow all who wish to come here to enter freely. We simply can not afford to solve the social problems of other countries.

The Bush administration has knowingly allowed the masses of illegals to cross the border despite the 911 security issue. I would imagine this was allowed to happen only because the cheap labor of the illegals has helped big businesses. Hint: The three largest meat packing plants in the nation were closed today.

But the cost of providing social services, especially medical care is
overwhelming to many cities and states. Good God we already have Millions of Americans without health insurance.

As Lou Dobbs stated this evening, it is a shame that these people are not demonstrating on the streets of Mexico for social reforms in their own country. Look at other places like Sudan, which should have MUCH more focus. There are so many more desperate situations in the world, why should the U.S. citizens provide a safety valve for the likes of Vicente Fox, and at what point will the valve burst?

I've finally gotten a chance to watch the news. There were still about 50% Mexican flags being waved (and of Che Guevara!) chanting (Mexico!) and singing in Spanish, very happy and festive with Mexican music etc. And worst of all signs demanding amnesty, and when several protestors were interviewed (none from a country other than Mexico), that was the message. They are demanding amnesty--not earning citizenship, not guest worker programs, but blanket amnesty for all. It's insane. I'm disgusted.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think this exchange on The News Hours provides a nice sense of the tone of this issue. For the most part I agree with Ms. Sanchez; esp here.

This is something where people do not have rights to come into this country illegally and then have a right to have certain, you know, expectations for entitlement.

That is the part that is really hard for many in our country to stomach. And I think the more that they do this in your face, "We are entitled to something," versus saying, "You know what? We want to come out of the shadows. We want to be a legitimate part of the American society. There needs to be a way to trade labor the way we trade goods and services with Mexico, Latin America, and the rest of the world." [continued]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/jan-june06/immigration_5-01.html

Audio available on page.

 

[SOS2008]

I think this exchange on The News Hours provides a nice sense of the tone of this issue. For the most part I agree with Ms. Sanchez; esp here.


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/jan-june06/immigration_5-01.html

Audio available on page.

Previously I've pointed out the difference between human rights and civil rights. So aside from the propagandistic terms being used, such as "civil rights" demonstration, "immigrant" day, etc. you may note our not-so-objective media has been using these terms along with Senior Juan Jose Gutierrez in the PBS link you provided. I went through the text and he only uses the term immigrant--never the word illegal. Someone should tell him immigrants don't need to protest because they became citizens legally. I agree Illegal "Alien" is weird, so I just refer to them as Illegals, but they are not immigrants.

Here is a quote of his that baffles me: "What the people did today is that they took an American position for their constitutional and civil rights in this great nation." How is it that they have constitutional or civil rights of our country if they are not American citizens? And I don't know what polls he has been looking at, but for example, more than half of Americans do not favor a guest worker program, because we all ready have one (the H visas) and we know these people never go back home once they get in.

Getting back to the entitlement attitude, one girl said our laws are out-of-date, therefore it is justified to break these laws. Yes, let's look as the laws, such as automatic citizenship for those born in the U.S.--this needs to be removed. Also, use of fraudulent documents/ID needs to be a felony. Many say illegals should have the right to a job and citizenship because they work hard. Bill Richards is just as lame saying they should become citizens based on good behavior (what a con artist he is). Um...what kind of criteria are these? As for making citizenship easier (for who?), why would we want to make it easier to import poverty? Legitimate qualifications cannot be tossed aside as some kind of inconvenience.

I agree with Ivan that the biggest problem is what to do with the 15 million plus who are already in the U.S. illegally. All criteria, whether that of good behavior, or how many years someone has been here would require screening. Is this realistic? Yet these same people argue that we can't deport any of these people because we don't have the resources to round up and process them. Hmm...very contradictory indeed.

If we enforced existing laws, I assure you these people would go home and take their "anchor" children (minors) with them of their own choosing. Further, I assure you companies like Tyson would get busy hiring Americans to work in their plants, and would lose only a small percent in profit in the process. And the magnet of jobs and benefits that is attracting these people would be removed. We still need to secure the border though. One of the criminal activities is that of trafficking women and children for sexual purposes often kidnapped or sold by families.

In the meantime there also were a lot of demonstrations in Mexico today in favor of illegals being granted amnesty in the U.S. I find it odd that they protest against U.S. laws, but not against their own crappy government. I suspect it has to do with what the Mexican government "allows."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It seems to me that we have to make the population already here legitimate - not citizens, but they should come out of the shadows. I do think we should enforce strict laws and applies severe penalties to the employers and such, and we do need to stop the hemorrhaging of the border, but we don't want to take a population that is 40% employed and throw them all out of work. This would only help to create more poverty and put larger burden on an already failing safety net. And I'm sure that many would stay here in any event since they know that their children will still get a free education, medical care, etc.

There was some real irony in the demo yesterday. First of all, many of the businesses affected in the LA area were Latino owned. Also, they boycotted schools, which means that in Los Angeles, some 28 millions dollars will not be paid to the school district from the State. So really it wasn't a matter of money lost, rather, it just doesn't get moved. It was also reported that some schools had attendance as low as 30%, so the illegals were boycotting and trying to harm an institution that does nothing but provide a free education for their children. Real smart. Also, the incredibly low attendance in some schools is a strong indicator of the burden placed on the system by the illegals. We hadn't mentioned anything about how the burden of the illegal population has brought public education to its knees, in many cities.

 

[Math Is Hard]

My commute was a breeze yesterday in L.A. Let's have a protest every Monday.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I won't be buying anything made by Tyson Foods anymore.

 

[McGyver]

The American Government Must Stay the Couse

The legislators in states around the nation, and in Washington D.C., should NOT be intimidated be the immigration rallies of Monday and previous weeks. Those "demanding" amnesty and free borders for immigrants wishing to come to the U.S. from Mexico and Central America have "no legal standing" upon which to make their claims. It is equivalent to criminals in prison causing an uprising and demanding release.

I am NOT racist. I have many friends and play percussion with people from Mexico and Central America. I would oppose a giant home builder, a Walmart type firm, a socially irresponsible oil company, or any "organization" who would perpetrate a couse of abusing influence, skirting state, federal, and local laws - en route to "compromising" the safety and well being of any community.

Within a few years of former President Reagan's 1980's amnesty deal for then illegal immigrants in the U.S., the movement of new illegal immigrants into Southern California was so telling - that the school system my wife attended in the 1960s and 70s, was "over-run" by Mexican illegal immigrant children in a mere 5-7 year period in the early 1990s, who didn't even live in the community where these schools reside. By 4th grade, my son's classes were over-crowded and pulled down by children unable to speak English. You can't imagine the enormity of this. It was as if they were refugees from a war the U.S. had agreed to take in! No home builder, company, or organization would ever be permitted to cause such an unfinanced and unmanaged burden upon localities.

U.S. labor jobs are being outsourced to cheaper labor countries overseas. The U.S. should not be intimated by those who continue to exploit border, race, or any other issue in America for their own devices.

I say: "Stay the Course."

 

[SOS2008]

It seems to me that we have to make the population already here legitimate - not citizens, but they should come out of the shadows. I do think we should enforce strict laws and applies severe penalties to the employers and such, and we do need to stop the hemorrhaging of the border, but we don't want to take a population that is 40% employed and throw them all out of work. This would only help to create more poverty and put larger burden on an already failing safety net. And I'm sure that many would stay here in any event since they know that their children will still get a free education, medical care, etc.

You realize if we enforce strict laws (hiring laws?) with severe penalties to employers, the 40% employed would all be out of work. I agree it would not be reasonable to deport all illegals overnight even if we could. We need to start processing these people, and it will take some time. During that time what is their status? If a "guest worker" status is used solely for this purpose and with the understanding it is temporary (just during the processing period), I would support it. However, the qualifications for citizenship must be legitimate (per existing qualifications), and not arbitrary such as time in the country or good behavior. Not only would anything other than existing criteria be unfair to people who immigrated legally, but how can you expect illegals who don't meet the cut-off time to come forward? Those with a criminal record aren't going to come forward. On the other hand, if these people can only immigrate per existing qualifications, it is projected it will take 11 years to gain citizenship. Are you willing to allow these people to remain here for 11 years or more as "guest workers", or should they return home while they wait? Come on, this is why illegals are against anything other than blanket amnesty.

I want legislation that secures the border ASAP (and personally I think we must also build a wall, which would be a one-time cost compared to ongoing costs for manpower, detention facilities, etc.), and legislation that enforces existing laws, most notably employment laws. There can be no amnesty, and even compromises or exceptions to rules will be a big welcome sign and we will have another 15 million illegals here in only a few years time. That's the unfortunate reality that we've seen before. And if we need to use the military, than we must do it.

My commute was a breeze yesterday in L.A. Let's have a protest every Monday.

I also was thinking how nice it must have been for American kids in school--not overcrowded, great student/teacher ratio, and all English instruction. Well they are planning more protests for May 19th, so enjoy!

I won't be buying anything made by Tyson Foods anymore.

Same here. Wal-Mart I've always boycotted, and I'm adding Home Depot.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You realize if we enforce strict laws (hiring laws?) with severe penalties to employers, the 40% employed would all be out of work.

I wondered if that would cause confusion. I see something like a grace period to allow illegals to register for a documentation process, and after that the laws would be strictly enforced.

Of course I have heard this song sung before...

Same here. Wal-Mart I've always boycotted,

I would but they've run all of the competition in town out of business.

 

[edward]

Most of the companies hiring illegal immigrants skirt the law, and mislead the public, by hiring sub-contractors to provide their labor force. Construction companies here are using nearly 100% subcontracted labor.

The ironic part is that many of the sub-contractors are themselves illegal immigrants who have learned how to manipulate the system.

It amazes me that the Bush administration has allowed this trend, and the flow of illegals to continue. The border in AZ is still like a sieve. I wonder somewhat tongue in cheek about what would have happened if 15 million Canadians had slipped into this country in the same time frame?

 

[edward]

I wondered if that would cause confusion. I see something like a grace period to allow illegals to register for a documentation process, and after that the laws would be strictly enforced.

Of course I have heard this song sung before...

I got your point and I think your use of the term "make them legitimate" is an excellent idea.

At this point many of the illegals currently have the illusion that they are legitimate when they buy a fake drivers license. We need to give them some REAL legal hoops to jump through to earn that ligitimacy.

 

[SOS2008]

I got your point and I think your use of the term "make them legitimate" is an excellent idea.

At this point many of the illegals currently have the illusion that they are legitimate when they buy a fake drivers license. We need to give them some REAL legal hoops to jump through to earn that ligitimacy.

That's the key issue - what will be required to earn citizenship legitimately.

Let's begin with existing quotas. Should Mexican nationals be given more opportunity than other nationalities? And if so, within that category of Mexican immigrants, should those who are already here (illegals) be given precedence over those who are still in Mexico who want to immigrate? In other words, should illegals be placed at the front of the line?

Then let's consider citizenship requirements. IMO the PROCESS for becoming a citizen needs to be improved from a bureaucratic perspective. There are not enough resources, and plenty of frustrating incompetence.

But if we relax the CRITERIA for citizenship in any way, I feel it should based on solid data of what OUR country needs. And before we determine what our country needs, we should make sure legal citizens are being given opportunities first. For example, it is becoming apparent that we are not preparing new generations for trade work, such as electricians, mechanics, etc. Part of it is the stigma that has been placed on these kinds of jobs (and in large part the stigma is that of low pay, which is due to employment of illegals). However studies are showing that increasing percentages of upcoming generations will not continue education beyond high school, so they will need these kind of jobs. We are already seeing this as parents support their kids later and later in life (currently the average age of 28). And these kinds of jobs cannot be exported except by giving them to foreigners inside the country.

My guess is we will need more immigrant labor in the medical field (huge shortage of nurses will increase), and possibly other high-end fields such as science, technology, and engineering. The unfortunate reality is illegals from Mexico are not going to fill these niches unless filled by future generations after being educated in our schools and universities with tax payer subsidies. In which case, I must ask why we aren't reserving these resources to prepare our own children?

When these idiotic politicians talk about a comprehensive solution, they say nothing about these issues I'm addressing. We need a multi-pronged approach that deals with the root of these problems, not only in our nation but in Mexico as well.

In the meantime, we need to secure our border by sealing it off as best as we can as soon as we can. And then, IMO, forget about finagling a way to accommodate the illegals already here. Sorry, but there simply is no solution that will be acceptable to both them or legal citizens.

Instead let's focus on our laws. First amend the constitution so that birth is automatic citizenship only to parents who are legal citizens. Then in addition to existing hiring laws, require employers to check documents. It is easy--there is already a database online by which they can do this at no cost other than a few minutes of their time. Very simply, it isn't a law, so they don't do it. Then if they find documents are fraudulent (though use of fake ID would end immediately if this is known), they also should be required to report it. The current laws regarding fake ID are as follows:

Fake ID Facts

False identification is used for many types of fraudulent activities, including illegal purchase of alcohol and cigarettes, check fraud, bank fraud, social security fraud and immigration fraud. Advanced computer graphics technology and color copiers have made it easier to produce fake IDs and harder for law enforcers or retailers to detect them.

The following summaries explain the law regarding the use, possession and production of falsified identification documents and the penalties for such actions.

COV 18.2-204.1. Fraudulent use of birth certificates, driver's licenses, etc.

* It is illegal to use another's identification as one's own.
* It is illegal to possesses or sell an ID for the purpose of establishing a false identification.
* Persons who possess, use or distribute fake IDs are charged with a Class 1 misdemeanor. If the document is used to purchase a firearm, the charges increase to a Class 6 felony.

COV 18.2-204.2. Facsimile or manufacture, sale, etc., or possession of fictitious, simulated official license or identification.

* It is illegal to possess, produce or distribute a falsified document that can be mistaken as an official government document.
* Violators face Class 1 misdemeanor charges for the sale or production of such ID and Class 2 misdemeanor charges for possession of such ID.

http://www.abc.state.va.us/facts/fakeid.html

These laws need to be tougher--it should be a felony, especially for those who manufacture and distribute fraudulent documents. As for illegal entry, those who enter more than once should not only be charged a fine to help pay for the cost to deport them repeatedly, but it should be at least a misdemeanor on the second try. Then law enforcement can assist if they enter again.

I guarantee you these measures would stop the flood immediately. And as cruel as some would like to make is sound, the illegals already here would return home on their own (natural attrition). No, they will not starve. During the time it will take to get these laws on the books (with a date of enforcement announced in advance), many illegals would sell their homes and/or businesses, and invest in their own county with the money they otherwise would not have. Those who have been educated in our schools can take their knowledge to their own country to be put to use there, that they otherwise would not have. Soon Mexico would be a better place, and so will the future of our own citizens in the U.S.

 

[edward]

A lot of the drivers licenses were sold to illegals by employees of the DMV, and not just here in AZ.

 

[SOS2008]

A lot of the drivers licenses were sold to illegals by employees of the DMV, and not just here in AZ.

The database I mentioned is to check Social Security numbers, and no one can be hired legally without a Social Security number. However, if so inclined (or should I say brave) an illegal could register to vote with a driver's license, so that's not a good thing either.

edward, did you see this on the news?

Every day around the clock illegal immigrants make a run for the border. Most who are caught will be deported and will likely try again of course. But those who are caught in Arizona may not be so lucky. They have to deal with a rebel sheriff and his posse of thousands. CNN's Peter Viles has more on that controversial policy and patrols in a story that first aired on CNN'S "Lou Dobbs Tonight."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A perk walk you won't see anywhere else, illegal aliens arrested for allegedly agreeing to be smuggled into America and making the mistake of passing through Maricopa County, Arizona.

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: I'm trying get a message out to all the illegals from Mexico to stay out of this county.

VILES: Maverick sheriff Joe Arpaio believes Arizona's new anti- smuggling law applies not just to coyotes, but to the illegal aliens they transport.

ARPAIO: It's interpreted by the county attorney that those that are in conspiracy with the smuggler can also be locked up. I'm the only law enforcement agency doing it.

VILES: And doing it his way using some of his vast posse of 3,000 volunteers to patrol the desert. This volunteer helped round up nine illegals and two alleged smugglers Tuesday morning.

ANDREW RAMSAMMY, VOLUNTEER DEPUTY: When you get a phone call at 4:00 in the morning from the sheriff, you respond.

VILES: Arpaio's deputies have jailed 120 illegals this year and this sheriff does not believe in catch and release.

ARPAIO: It's a felony, 1 1/2 years to 3 years in prison if convicted. So it's not a misdemeanor. I could very easily turn these people over to immigration, they get a free ride back to Mexico. Right now they're getting a free ride to the jail.

VILES: Jail space is not a problem. Arpaio is the sheriff who built a tent city of jail cells.

RUSSELL PEARCE, (R) ARIZONA STATE HOUSE: The message has to be loud and clear. We're not taking it any more. You enter this country illegally, you're going to be arrested, you're going to be deported.

VILES: It's likely though the county will face a legal challenge in its use of the new law. At the state level, it is being used only to target the smuggler. The sheriff bristled at the suggestion his posse is somehow similar to "The Minutemen" saying his volunteer posse undergoes extensive professional training and is sworn in under the Arizona state constitution. Peter Viles for CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0605/04/acd.01.html

I say good for Arpaio. And I feel he has a solid legal case. True, the illegals are the "contraband" but unlike drugs, they are "consenting adults" so unless they are kidnapped, they are accomplices to the smugglers (coyotes). In the past, I have also had email correspondence with Representative Pearce, who has been advocating English as the national language for a long time now. (Just as a side note, his son was a Deputy who was shot by an illegal alien.)

And then this:

A Los Angeles attorney brought into the case last week by the Mexican Consul General's Office in Phoenix plans to file another motion claiming Maricopa County Attorney officials are violating state and federal law because it's the federal government's job to control illegal immigration.

Both motions are to be argued in county court on May 23.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/3841709.html

The Mexican Consul General's Office? And of course they would like the federal government to be responsible because the federal government does nothing but look the other way.

In the meantime, I keep seeing bleeding-heart BS from the likes of Patti Davis (Reagan's daughter). In her article "Rude America" by Patti Davis wrote:

"Yet on May 1, thousands of immigrants across the country marched and waved flags and professed their love for America. Doesn’t anyone see the irony in this? These are people who not only put up with the same climate of rudeness the rest of us do, but they’re paid poorly, they will never get their Social Security benefits (if they’re here illegally) and now there is a move to send them all away. Yet they sincerely love this country. They’re willing to see past our obvious shortcomings and work hard to live here."

With all the Mexican flags being waved, and chants of "Mexico!" in Spanish, how does Patti come to the conclusion that these law-breaking illegals have loyalty to America? And I guess she didn't see footage of them throwing rocks and bottles at police officers as it began to get dark. If Americans are rude, it's probably because they are paid poorly, thanks to depressed wages due to illegals in our country. As for Social Security benefits, can any of us count on receiving these benefits, especially since far more of our tax dollars must be spent on other benefits illegals enjoy in increasing numbers? First, Patti and many other pro-amnesty people need to understand that these illegals are here because of corporate greed, and not by invitation of tax-paying citizens. The American people therefore don't owe illegals anything.

A recent study comparing immigration/illegal entry laws of six nations (Sweden, Egypt, etc., and including Mexico) concluded that all have stiffer laws than the U.S. has. The more I learn, the more my position hardens. I say:

1) Secure our border by sealing it off as best as we can as soon as we can. I feel this must include building a wall.

In the meantime, and going forward, those who cross the border illegally once should be charged a fine and deported immediately. A warrant for their arrest should be issued for failure to pay the fine. On a second attempt to cross the border they should be charged with a misdemeanor. In these ways local law enforcement can assist in apprehending them if they continue to enter illegally. Right now it is only a "civil offense."

2) Amend the constitution so that birth is automatic citizenship only to children of legal parents. This also is the norm in other countries.

3) Require employers to check Social Security numbers. There is already a database online by which they can do this. Then if they find documents are fraudulent, they also should be required to report it to the INS.

4) It should be a felony to use fake ID, and especially to manufacture and distribute fraudulent documents.

5) English needs to be made our national language, and anything provided by our government in any other language must be ended. Making government services available in Spanish is discriminatory to other nationalities, contrary to assimilation and advancement, and contributes to delusions of entitlement by illegals.

I know some feel it is best to focus on one thing at a time, beginning with securing the border. But I feel all these things should be in the debate now, or we may never progress to the rest of these items later.

In the meantime, believe it or not, environmentalists are against amnesty for illegals. They say the resulting population explosion in the U.S. would be very detrimental. That's right, the tree huggers want to measure and control immigration -- they are against a free-for-all.

Keep up the phone calls, letters, and emails to your congressional representatives! It makes a difference.

 

[edward]

SOS2008

Yes I saw the news about Sheriff "Joe" in Maricopa county. Actually he doesn't have enough room, even in his tent city, to house all of those who may be caught.

From another aspect, the Border Patrol has reported that the number of apprehensions that they announce may be quite misleading. This is because those who are caught are returned to border towns and the illegals simply try agian the next day, and the next. Eventually they make it. Getting caught is no big deal to them. They get free meals, medical care, a safe place to sleep and the next day a free ride back down to the border.

The border has been a revolving door that has cost us millions of dollars. And at the same time our nation has supposedly been under a high state of security, millions of people have crossed into this country and simply disappeared into an underground economy.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

These are people who not only put up with the same climate of rudeness the rest of us do, but they’re paid poorly, they will never get their Social Security benefits (if they’re here illegally) and now there is a move to send them all away. Yet they sincerely love this country. They’re willing to see past our obvious shortcomings and work hard to live here."

Oh please, get a grip Patti. They are here because Mexico and Cen Am are dirt poor and riddled with corruption.

 

[Art]

Oh please, get a grip Patti. They are here because Mexico and Cen Am are dirt poor and riddled with corruption.

And the other 280 million american immigrants and their descendants are there because?