News Should Mexicans Focus on Improving Mexico Instead of Immigrating Illegally?

[TheStatutoryApe]

But that is fascism, not really communism.

In most 'communist' countries you have to apply with the government to move from one place to another and take a job in another place. If the government says no then you can't go.

 

[X-43D]

In most 'communist' countries you have to apply with the government to move from one place to another and take a job in another place. If the government says no then you can't go.

This is true in any authoritarian or dictatorial state.

 

[SOS2008]

To those who doubt the immensity of the problem on the southern borders of the U.S., I wish you could live some place like Tucson for awhile, and then get back to me about how the numbers are being exaggerated. I was watching footage on the news last night that showed a group of illegals rushing the border (looked like California). In other parts of the world, they would be gunned down. They are running past the check point and no one is stopping them. Fascism my arse.

People say we should just increase legal immigration so these people don't have to sneak across the border. I see it and hear it all the time, and it's a ludicrous solution -- It's equivalent to having no borders and allowing a free for all, which of course is how Mexico wants it to be. In watching interviews on the news, a Mexican professor said the U.S. should allow all these people legal entry and in about 12 years everything would normalize. WTF?! Yes, everything would "normalize" for Mexico, but the U.S. would be in ruins.

In the meantime, I did not say we should not increase caps on legal immigration--just that it can't be made wide open to match demand. First the minimum wage needs to be increased to appropriate levels. Then if an increased need for immigration can be proven (hard data not from a bias source), then increase it to that amount. But increase it in a way fair to people who want to enter from all areas of the world via quotas. A skewed Mexican population, especially the percentages we are seeing in border states, does not constitute a "melting pot" in the American tradition.

Pointing at the large amount of open land in the U.S. always slays me. Here in Arizona there are vast amounts of open land. But, there is no water, and we are already scrambling to accommodate the population growth here. It's the same as saying look at all of Siberia.

In reference to worker visas, some work such as agriculture is seasonal so cannot support a resident year around--and thus how the migrant worker program began. But otherwise, maybe the concept of a guest worker program is not a good idea. At the minimum we should have the same requirements other countries have for citizenship, such as Canada. You say it is tough to get a company to sponsor you? That's the way it is everywhere.

In regard to screening current illegals in the country and fear of riots -- This is why I say this is not immigration but an invasion. Call in the troops if we must. Foreigners cannot be allowed to dictate our laws to us with fear and riots on our soil. We are defending American freedom in Iraq? Riiight.

 

[rachmaninoff2]

This is true in any authoritarian or dictatorial state.

Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently separate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you.

 

[rachmaninoff2]

Since years ago. To obtain one of the more generally available visas, of the 70 different types available, wouldbe immigrants need to show they have a job lined up to go to. The visa they obtain is specific to that job. I don't think this makes you communists though.

That's totally different. They have skills and a PhD, they attract the interests of an employer, then they apply for an H1-B. It's a free contract of employment by both parties. What you're talking about is a federal government getting involved and moving people around, assinging employees to employers, telling people where they can live. That is a communist state.

I'll quote exactly what you said:

Immigrants should be directed to states that require their labour. One of the key problems IMO with immigration is that certain areas such as the border states end up with a vastly disproportionate amount of newly arrived immigrants living in their locale at levels that cannot be intergrated into the existing community. Eliminating illegal immigration would solve a lot of this problem but nevertheless there should be a national plan to determine where immigrants should be assigned at least initially.

 

[Evo]

The answer to the problem of illegal immigrants definitely is "not" to make them all legal and allow anyone to come into the country. There seems to be no pressure on Mexico to stop the mass exodus into the US. Although I feel for the poor people that want to make a better life and are willing to do hard work for it, too many just come across in order to send money back to Mexico. I'm getting tired of seeing the Western Union money transfer to Mexico forms on every customer service counter in town. They're just bleeding the local economy.

 

[rachmaninoff2]

Let me clarify one point many people here misunderstood. The existing 'guest worker' program, the H1-B visa are for skilled workers - many of these are for Ph.D's, M.D.'s, etc. At least in my opinion, these are jobs for which unrestricted, free market competition is very good; I'd hate to have my general physician replaced by some one less 'competitive' just because of their nationalities. The proposed "guest worker" program is in a totally different labor market, the "minimum wage" jobs for unskilled workers. This is a far larger job pool, and at the moment simple economics leads illegal immigrants to be filling it up. The President's program suggests creating a legal process for such large-scale unskilled immigration.

These two things are totally different, and it would be great if no one here confused them from here on out.

-rachmaninoff

 

[ron damon]

Economically, they're contributing plenty. But this is not a matter of economics, but culture.

Human beings are not equal; they're as different from one another as Confucius and Luther, and the civilizations they give rise to consequently reflect the unfathomable distances that exist in the realm of the human spirit.

The limited diffusion and assimilation one can expect of this highly homogeneous and numerically imposing block of people living some hours worth of travel from their homeland, makes this latest wave of immigration different from preceding ones, and most likely will result in the transformation of the areas they colonize into a living space coherent with their cultural and religious characteristics. They will make the southern states part of Mexico again.

People, not geographical borders, make up a nation. When you look at Mexico, do you see a place you want to live in? I don't mean the colorful appeal any foreign land exerts upon one. Do you see yourself settling down and raising a family under the conditions prevalent south of the border?

 

[X-43D]

Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently separate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you.

In fascist states it is the same. The state regulates all corporate activity through chartering and licensing. At least in communist states people are paid according to how hard they work, not so in fascist states.

 

[Art]

That's totally different. They have skills and a PhD, they attract the interests of an employer, then they apply for an H1-B. It's a free contract of employment by both parties. What you're talking about is a federal government getting involved and moving people around, assinging employees to employers, telling people where they can live. That is a communist state.

Just to clarify, no I am not saying that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Have you all heard about the effort for Mexico to reclaim the southern states. Once thought to be a joke, according to the report on Lou Dobbs yesterday, this idea is gaining favor amoung illegal immigrants; who organized a 500,000 person protest in in L.A., in one day.

There is a formal name for this movement but I didn't quite catch it.

As a person who grew up in S. Cal, this is my biggest problem with the illegals: Many don't wan't to be Americans, rather they want America to be Mexico. They don't want to assimilate into our culture, they want to transform our culture into theirs. Never mind that their country sucks so bad that they all want to come here... They want to import their failed system and culture.

Oh yes, time and time again you can see that they believe they are entitled to US land and social programs. I have heard this first hand many times.

 

[Moonbear]

As a person who grew up in S. Cal, this is my biggest problem with the illegals: Many don't wan't to be Americans, rather they want America to be Mexico. They don't want to assimilate into our culture, they want to transform our culture into theirs. Never mind that their country sucks so bad that they all want to come here... They want to import their failed system and culture.

There are also those who don't even want to live here, but come across the border to earn a paycheck to send back to support their family that will stay in Mexico. It just sucks money straight from our economy to support theirs.

Gee, why is nobody up in arms that Canada doesn't allow unskilled U.S. citizens to work in Canada either? When the former lab I worked in moved to Canada, there was no problem obtaining visas for the "highly skilled workers," (i.e., those with Ph.D.s moving for faculty positions), but our technicians and the one administrative assistant that wanted to move and the lab wanted to move with them as well could not obtain visas to work in Canada, because there were not uniquely qualified over Canadian citizens available to do those jobs. I would fully expect the Canadian government to deport any U.S. citizen found to be working or living there illegally back to the U.S. and to list them as ineligible to ever cross the border again. And I don't think it should be any different for anyone entering any country illegally, so don't know why Mexican citizens needs to receive some form of special consideration. They should be treated exactly the same as any citizen of any other country as far as immigration laws are concerned.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There are also those who don't even want to live here, but come across the border to earn a paycheck to send back to support their family that will stay in Mexico. It just sucks money straight from our economy to support theirs.

That's exactly right. We have an 800 billion dollar trade deficit, and then the labor for domestic goods is driven down to third world wages by illegal laborors who receive income that leaves the US.

 

[edward]

That's exactly right. We have an 800 billion dollar trade deficit, and then the labor for domestic goods is driven down to third world wages by illegal laborors who receive income that leaves the US.

I can't figure out how to cut and paste from a PDF document so here is the entire link.
http://www.bearstearns.com/bscportal/pdfs/underground.pdf

The two largest sources of income flowing into Mexico are from, oil sales to the USA, and from money sent back to Mexico by the undocumented workers.

The two figures, in Billions, are running very close. According to the link the USA is also losing $35 billion in unpaid income taxes.

Our schools and hospitals here in Tucson are experiencing a tremendous burden, and yet receive no help from the federal govenment.

There is a very overt but under the radar effort by the Mexican government to assist it's undocumented throngs in the USA.

from the November 29, 2002 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1129/p03s01-usju.html

For illegal immigrants, new mobile ID service
Thriving beneath the radar and above the law, matricula consulars boost the privileges and status of illegal Mexicans.
By Patrik Jonsson | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

WEST COLUMBIA, S.C. - At El Rincon Vaquero trading post here in West Columbia, S.C., votive candles compete with cowboy hats and jars of dark mole for shelf space. The colorful shop is a slice of Mexico in the middle of a rundown neighborhood. But one day this month, El Rincon Vaquero became, through a bit of diplomatic magic, an actual outpost of Mexico.

In an aggressive - some say subversive - new gambit, the Mexican government is sending its deputies through the American countryside, setting up shop in strip malls and schools, and handing out new Mexican ID cards called matricula consulars for $29.

Ten U.S. states now allow the "matricula consulars" to be used as sufficient identification to get drivers licenses and other services.

 

[loseyourname]

Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently separate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you.

Notably, in the Soviet Union, there still existed large populations of Siberian natives that were nomadic reindeer herders, such as the Eveny and Chukchi, that lived and worked as family units. After the revolution, since all private ownership was outlawed, their herds were seized and made state property, and the families were intentionally broken up and people were instead organized into brigades, with men given the herding jobs and women made to work in villages that were set up, because nomadism was no longer allowed either. This, along with the fact that they were killed if they openly practiced their shamanistic religions, destroyed the economic viability of these people, making them completely dependent upon the government bureaucracy. Reading about them today, or watching documentary film footage, can be utterly heartbreaking.

It's amazing how simple-minded the Soviets were at times, as if nothing existed in the world but imperialist capitalism and the glorious "worker's paradise." Like tribal nomads that followed the natural migration patterns of reindeer herds, in which family units owned a few domesticated reindeer that they used to hunt the wild ones, were such imperialistic capitalist pigs that needed to be collectivized.

 

[JamesU]

intill the hurricane comes and blows the poorly built home to pieces

No hurricanes Here...

with no unions there are no training programs so you have unskilled people trying to doing skilled jobs at pay rates that hurt other workers
if you want a 3rd world class home good luck

We have a skilled person to direct them, they're just cheap and do what they're told. They do minor things mostly.

 

[ray b]

Have you all heard about the effort for Mexico to reclaim the southern states. Once thought to be a joke, according to the report on Lou Dobbs yesterday, this idea is gaining favor amoung illegal immigrants; who organized a 500,000 person protest in in L.A., in one day.

There is a formal name for this movement but I didn't quite catch it.

As a person who grew up in S. Cal, this is my biggest problem with the illegals: Many don't wan't to be Americans, rather they want America to be Mexico. They don't want to assimilate into our culture, they want to transform our culture into theirs. Never mind that their country sucks so bad that they all want to come here... They want to import their failed system and culture.

Oh yes, time and time again you can see that they believe they are entitled to US land and social programs. I have heard this first hand many times.

reconquesta

here in miami it has allmost happend
most jobs require spanish BUT NOT ENGLISH
as that is what bilingual means here

or you get the callers asking for a spanish speaker in good english
who hangs up when told no spanish speakers are available

 

[X-43D]

There are also those who don't even want to live here, but come across the border to earn a paycheck to send back to support their family that will stay in Mexico. It just sucks money straight from our economy to support theirs.

Gee, why is nobody up in arms that Canada doesn't allow unskilled U.S. citizens to work in Canada either? When the former lab I worked in moved to Canada, there was no problem obtaining visas for the "highly skilled workers," (i.e., those with Ph.D.s moving for faculty positions), but our technicians and the one administrative assistant that wanted to move and the lab wanted to move with them as well could not obtain visas to work in Canada, because there were not uniquely qualified over Canadian citizens available to do those jobs. I would fully expect the Canadian government to deport any U.S. citizen found to be working or living there illegally back to the U.S. and to list them as ineligible to ever cross the border again. And I don't think it should be any different for anyone entering any country illegally, so don't know why Mexican citizens needs to receive some form of special consideration. They should be treated exactly the same as any citizen of any other country as far as immigration laws are concerned.

Canada is a conservative monarchy. Huge landmass but almost no people.

 

[rachmaninoff2]

Canada is a conservative monarchy. Huge landmass but almost no people.

Huh? Canada is a parliamentary democracy, and quite liberal. They have thirty million people.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

In regard to screening current illegals in the country and fear of riots -- This is why I say this is not immigration but an invasion. Call in the troops if we must. Foreigners cannot be allowed to dictate our laws to us with fear and riots on our soil. We are defending American freedom in Iraq? Riiight.

Why does that make it an invasion? A cop shoots a teenager and there are riots. A court verdict is announced and there are riots. A basketball game ends and there are riots. It saddens me that americans riots over such small things. But if the government started making rounds asking people "Vere are your paypas?" and rounding them up to throw in camps and deport them I would be seriously worried if there weren't any riots.
And I'm sure that military presence will defuse any tense and potentially explosively violent situations since that's the way it's always worked in the past.

 

[SOS2008]

Why does that make it an invasion? A cop shoots a teenager and there are riots. A court verdict is announced and there are riots. A basketball game ends and there are riots. It saddens me that americans riots over such small things. But if the government started making rounds asking people "Vere are your paypas?" and rounding them up to throw in camps and deport them I would be seriously worried if there weren't any riots.
And I'm sure that military presence will defuse any tense and potentially explosively violent situations since that's the way it's always worked in the past.

Sports riots are another issue. Court verdicts viewed as racist is getting closer. But these issues are separate from this topic.

People who are in the country illegally do not have the same rights as legal citizens, which includes protesting U.S. laws in U.S. streets. If Americans feel fear of riots and violence from foreigners on U.S. soil, that is a form of invasion. And let's not exaggerate comparisons of enforcing our laws to that of a Gestapo. It saddens me that legal citizens aren't able to organize and protest against something as large as an invasion.

Ultimately it is a problem created by governments, not the people. That's why I agree there should be civility. Nonetheless, the choice is either processing people who are here illegally or granting amnesty. There is consensus that amnesty cannot be granted again and again, and the problem has reached a point where we must address it comprehensively, which will include deportation of those who don't qualify for citizenship.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

People who are in the country illegally do not have the same rights as legal citizens, which includes protesting U.S. laws in U.S. streets. If Americans feel fear of riots and violence from foreigners on U.S. soil, that is a form of invasion. And let's not exaggerate comparisons of enforcing our laws to that of a Gestapo. It saddens me that legal citizens aren't able to organize and protest against something as large as an invasion.

Not all of the people who protest are illegal immigrants. I'm not even sure a majority of those that protest are illegals since they tend to worry about being discovered and deported.

And the Minutemen were a rather large and well covered 'protest' against illegal immigration.

 

[SOS2008]

Not all of the people who protest are illegal immigrants. I'm not even sure a majority of those that protest are illegals since they tend to worry about being discovered and deported.

And the Minutemen were a rather large and well covered 'protest' against illegal immigration.

We are only digressing here, but many of the protesters in L.A. were illegal. Even more revealing was the most recent protest in NY, where they were waving flags from many countries, but almost all of the protestors were Mexican. Of course these people are afraid of being forced to follow the law, which might mean deportation. Those who have been here for some years are not afraid, and operate quite openly, starting businesses, buying property, etc.

The Minutemen here in Arizona have returned to help monitor a section of the border for a month. This is what they choose to do to bring the issue to the public's attention. I am not aware of any rallies being organized at the time by them or any other organization. I think groups want to avoid violence that might erupt in response to protests. I'll go if I'm wrapped in a Kevlar American flag -- that tells you something, no?

 

[edward]

Not all of the people who protest are illegal immigrants. I'm not even sure a majority of those that protest are illegals since they tend to worry about being discovered and deported.

500,000 protested in L.A. Exactly what agency could discover and deport them?? Their is safety in numbers, we can't even keep up with deporting those caught pouring across the border. When deported they just turn around and come back a few days later.

When they were seen running up and down the streets waving the Mexican flag, they sent their true message. And to think that they would do this while coffins draped with the American flag are returning to this country shows where their loyalty truly is. Mehico Mehico.

Here is a link to the statistics on illegal immigrants compiled by the Department of Homeland Security for 2004. It is PDF, so I can't cut and paste the parts I would like to.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/publications/AnnualReportEnforcement2004.pdf

At one time I had no problem with people coming up from Mexico seeking a better life. That had been happening for 50 years. The situation in the past ten years has gone far beyond anything acceptable. Many coming now are illiterate even in their own language.

And they are not all taking jobs that Americans will not do. That line is a fallacy. They are doing the same jobs Americans used to do, but doing them for lower wages than Americans can afford to work for.

For instance in Southern Arizona local garbage truck drivers who used to make $12 per hour have been replaced by illegals who will do the job for $7 per hour and with no benefits. This same situation has spilled over into the construction industry. Illegals are now prevalent at construction sites doing; masonry, carpentry,roofing, drywall, plumbing and electrical.

A typical home builder subcontracts most of the actual construction to other companies who usually specialize in one aspect of building, such as framers or electricians.
Contracts go to the lowest bidder, the company who hires the most illegals, will be the lowest bidder.

 

[Vincent Vega]

You think I care about the greedy business owners lining their pockets hiring cost efficient works? How does that benefit America? Tax payers pay for their stay and well being. A majority of Americans don't want illegals here, and those vote greedy politicians basically, just told Americans, "what does your opinion matter?". Raise minimum wage and maybe AMERICANS will take these "UNWANTED" jobs.

 

[Moonbear]

You think I care about the greedy business owners lining their pockets hiring cost efficient works? How does that benefit America? Tax payers pay for their stay and well being. A majority of Americans don't want illegals here, and those vote greedy politicians basically, just told Americans, "what does your opinion matter?". Raise minimum wage and maybe AMERICANS will take these "UNWANTED" jobs.

It's not even just minimum wage that's the issue, because they are willing to work for less than minimum wage, or in jobs that are not protected by minimum wage laws, such as migrant farm workers who are paid at piece-rates rather than hourly rates. http://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=248_0_3_0

Though, those jobs are also not steady employment either, but seasonal.

 

[ray b]

The Mexican solution

-Article 33, "Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country."
-Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones.
-Article 32 bans foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.
-Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers.
-Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth.
-Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.
-Article 130, immigrants - even legal ones - may not become members of the clergy.
-Article 27, foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights.
-Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests.
-Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities."

The Mexican constitution states that foreigners - not just illegal immigrants - may be expelled for any reason and without due process.
-Article 33, "the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action."

why should we treat them any different then they treat us?

 

[Art]

Here's an interesting article which cites a report which claims the high immigration numbers have actually boosted overall average american earnings.

How immigrants might actually boost wages
Influx of foreign workers leads to increased investment, study findsIn the debate raging on Capitol Hill over how to reform the nation’s immigration laws, one assumption never far from the surface is that foreign-born workers are taking jobs from native-born Americans and driving down wages.
<snip>
Many economists agree that undocumented aliens reduce wages for the least skilled native-born workers, but most also say immigration benefits the economy overall by lowering prices for consumers in a sort of Wal-Mart effect. One intriguing study even suggests that the huge influx of immigrants since 1980 has boosted the average wage of U.S.-born workers by about 2 percent, partly by spurring additional capital investment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12208037/

 

[ray b]

yes the Wal-Mart effect is good for Wal-Mart
and a good example for the USA on illegals
with a short term gain, for a long term LOSS
but is DEATH for many others
Wal-Mart buy few made in USA goods
the cheap china made JUNK they sell does not last
so they export our jobs toooo
and hurt the local econ by exporting proffits
and hurt others like mom and pop stores
so city centers die thanks to the Wal-Marts
and most other local biz lose

low wage illegals depress everyone elses wages too
hurt unions as they will not join
and so the trades use UNTRAINED LABOR
and hope the quality is not toooo poor
lower avg wages, suport poor working condisions
EXPORT $$$$$ back home that no longer is in the local or state or national econ as it is now GONE FOREVER down south

miami is now the poorest major city in the USA
thats thanks to UNCONTROLED imigration both illegal and semi-legal
over the last 40 years
and btw local jobs don't pay spit
as there are too many illegals who will work for sub minimum wage
schools are poor so NO AMERICANS will move here now

 

[McGyver]

Actual Wages Adjusted to U.S. Costs Living Less in U.S.

With all the hooplah and demonstrations this week about Mexican immigrants rights to come here for work, several points must be made.

The first is called tough love. As Americans and Christians, we have all experienced tough love. Now when Mexico pays $5 a day, and the U.S can pay $50 to $75 a day, it may look appealing, but adjusted for the much higher cost of living, housing, health care, taxes, funding of schools, etc, it's really no better than Mexico. But when states stupidly through in all the free-bees, the value of these daily eanings goes $200 to300 per day, and sends a mis-directed message about neighborly love, tough love, and self sufficiency. It is a sin according to the Bible!

NAFTA was conceived and signed into law so U.S. co's could trim costs by shipping labor to places like Mexico. Instead, more workers have come up here today than before NAFTA, and they want to push up the U.S. minimum wage to stay. Hello! It's a secondary argument being floated around, that it needs to be raised so Americans will take these jobs, or make the pay scale more livable for foreign laborers. This would seem to attract even more illigal immigration. Kind of defeats the purpose of NAFTA and our economic model. Wake up Washington!

Do we need to send them more jobs? I mean, what is the correct economic model? This has barely been brought up. Congress and the White House better have a workable economic model to share with the country. Our fiscal budget and jobs could be the #3 issue in the Fall elections, and #1 or #2 in '08.